Basementdweller

Had another thought. So if the young man can't/won't swim why would he drop out???? Is the program he is involved in only about advancement? We have had numerous debates regarding BSA and it only being about the rank advancement. Who is the best eagle scout, a 13 year old or an 18 year old. Just because he cannot swim in not an excuse to drop out of Boy scouts, who cares what rank you are?

Stay at home moms whose son is gonna be an eagle because it is a family tradition. other than that Parents

Seattle We are under the impression that she is a scout volunteer. I don't believe this is the case, I just believe she is a parent. Trying to give her son and advantage by buying an actual dog sled and cheating by getting advice on a survival kit for the same event from members of this board. The webelos boys should be doing this on their own, with a little guidance from the den leader . If I am judging wrong I am sorry, just have dealt with this type too many times.

Hey look I showed up in this thread finally. Hey clem my Career Arrows are worth about $200 each with the amount of time in each of them. Elza how did that $250 klondik sled work out... It sounds to me from your posts is you are looking for a way to reward boys(your son) who have been in the program longer than the new boys. That is simply wrong. Read the following. First off, there is no arrow of light arrow per say. We call them Career arrows as they represent the cubs journey thru scouting. EVERY Webelos gets one when they leave the Pack AOL or not. Each arrow is unique to the boys journey, we include summer camps and religous awards, leave no trace and outdoor activity awards on ours. So by there very nature a boy who has been in the program longer will have more bands on his arrow. I disagree with adding extra bobbles to it to make it special for your son. I do spent 4-6 hours per arrow making them. I just finished 12 of them today after a couple of weeks working evenings. I have purchased kits in the past, I use genuine hand knapped flint arrow heads, Turkey feathers and sinew to put them together, then I band them with cross stitch thread. They are beautiful when they are done. The boys or parents do not appreciate the amount of effort it takes to make them. My son did but he sees how much work they are. Had a parent tell my I know it was a lot of work but you like making them. NO I DON"T. I will never forget the young man who after receiving the arrow did a karate head butt thing and broke it in half 2 minutes after receiving it. then the verbal assault from the angry parent. The ceremony we have 3 different ones we use. We are in native american garb and usually spin an elebrate tale about little akelas journey. I have a real problem with Scouters who put their son FIRST. As a scout leader I have struggled with how to treat my son. Many a time he has given up his money from the popcorn table, because we did not make enough to split with the boys, I slowed his advancement so I wouldn't have to deal with the whispers in the background. I never sign off on his advancement and I have never handed him an award at a ceremony. I have smiled and applauded his accomplishments.

The day camp we ran had $2600 in the account at the end of the year. Jan 1 rolled around. the council STOLE our money. they zero'd the account and added our money to their income column. Had I known that was gonna happen, I would never spent money out of my own pocket. We were led to believe that we could buy BB guns and Bows and Arrows instead of begging and borrowing them. I spent several hundred dollars out of my own pocket because we were over budget. I will never spend a dime out of my pocket for a district or council event or project ever again.

We have a psyco boy scout. kid can't do a blasted thing with out mom. Including his board of reviews. MOM is gonna get her eagle. The kid has no heart. I am of the growing opinion that beyond physical problems the boy needs to do it or he doesn't. Obviously someone with cerebal palsy isn't gonna swim laps, but I have seen a young man swim one and I was impressed. Spending hundreds of dollars to determine if the boy is right in the head or not is ridiculous.

Well, got an ACM tonight. his son is a tiger so I will potentially have him for 4 years or so. Succession plan for 2011-2012 is in place and approved.

Realistically we have little control over short term leadership issues. It is like fishing, all you can really do is keep casting, skill helps a bit. but either the fish bite or they don't. We had a good time at the meeting last night, The boys came in ready to go........Had several turn in a lot of work to catch up with the other webelos, so I still might have a chance at getting 12 into the troop in march.......... The entire den and parent is signed up for a weekend cabin camp in two weeks. This will finish all but 4 boys for the AOL. Started recruiting adults for summer camp this coming summer. I will spend 4 weeks this summer camping with the BSA. June troop one week, july cubs day camp, webs resident camp, August backpacking with the crew. Had some success. got my second for webs camp. The crew and troop is covered with asm's and associate advisers. All I need is a second for day camp.

I don't have any problem with letting them skate a bit on that with the understanding come earthday they are expected to attend

With no autopsy we are just speculating. for all we know he could have had a congenital heart or blood vessel defect. If the family is gonna sue, the courts should require an autopsy.

I really don't like troop master.....it is too vanilla I understand it is the gold standard..... Scouttracks is pretty good for cub level.

the poster didn't like the way the tread went. Sounds like the district was involved and investigated. The devil is in the details. Boy come and boys go, there are a million excuses to leave scouting only one to stay.

There was no committee. It was destroyed by a previous, 5 or 6 years ago, CC and treasurer looting the pack treasury. Both went to jail and are on repayment plans $20 a month each. I think they will have the debt repaid in 100 years. The committee existed only on paper. I have recruited everyone except the COR, the treasure and CC are all scout alumni and have no youth in the pack or troop, wife is secretary, I have three new scout parents involved on the committee and current den leaders. I am actively recruiting adults, today had lunch with a couple of webelos dads and got them signed up as ASM's for the troop. I have the apps and reg fees in hand, they will get youth protection in the next week or so. I don't understand why it is so hard with cub parents to step up..... We are are poor area, everyone works, most are single parent households and even in typical households it both parents work. Decent volunteers are hard to come by. I have handed a number of parents apps, when the discover there is a back ground check the just hand them back.....I have had a couple remove their boys entirely. what is a guy to do? We have a couple of really strange dads who would like to be more active but the committee wants nothing to do with them. The COR said he will refuse to sign their apps. Oh well. Volunteer chemistry is important. The Pack blew up in april three years ago, We lost 50% of the youth. I became CM at that point, Recharter that year we were down to 10 youth. I got a call and visit from the DE asking what happened. of course most of the boys that left were the two leaders involved, they had 5 between them and we lost the entire webelos den because she never quit, she just stopped showing up. Yes the minister comes over on scout night and roams the den rooms. She just smiles and couldn't seem to be happier. recruiting adults volunteers is a full time job. it is hard to get them off the side lines. But I still gotta ask WHY?

Good idea moosetracker regarding the old SM's helping the pack. They do help at the blue and gold and at the Pinewood, maybe I need to push a bit to get some help on meeting nights. Our Pack is poor that is why the receipts for training are not being turned in.......$250 for woodbadge???? that is more than we are spending on the blue and gold and pinewood. What the cub program has lacked is in the past is stability. Four CM in four years. 100% turn over in den leaders. It is no wonder they were down to 10 boys. Since I took over as CM we have 100% direct contact leader retention and 90% scout retention. The year I joined the pack we crossed zero scouts into the Troop, second 4, this year 10. My 5 year commitment was to bring in new leaders, stabilize the program and develop long term goals and programs with in the Pack. Lets face it, it is easier to recruit leaders if they know you are not going to leave in a year or two. In the last two years we have developed a pack budget, never had one before. A succession plan, never had one before. Pack calendar planned 18 months out. Individual scout accounts to encourage fund raising. We quadrupled our popcorn sale. We doubled the size of our Pack last year from 30 to 60, the first year we went from 10 to 30. We have a monthly Pack activity, family hike, family camp, or family event. We went from near zero balance in the bank to having a savings account. Created a Sibling den....they do their own program and advance as well. we got the Pack out of the den leaders pockets, previously the den leaders financed their own dens out of pockets, the dens have a budget for activities. Had some success for sure and the program has improved dramatically, the Minister couldn't be happier, the Church is Rocking with energy on "Scout night". Why?(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

fscout.... I know it was a violation of youth protection. What am I gonna do? The kids mom dumped him at the door and ran......I called every single phone number I had for them, including grandma's and even a work number. We Sat in the lobby and waited, church members were in and out. mom was not remotely apologetic. I am guessing she was at the bar. Most of the Parents dumped and ran, a couple even came in before they booked.......took a look around one got a cup of coffee before they left just after they said hi. The simple fix is no more pinewood derby workshop days. I don't have a vote on the committee I am program, they are administrative. I have a couple of examples......The career arrow assembled is $25 as a kit $15......What was I given, the kit. Spent most of my free time over the week assembling them.....now I am banding them. The committee wanted the pinewood cars routered for the v shaped weights in the bottom before they were given to the boy. So I spent new years day routering 70 pine wood cars. You are correct No is liberating and it my just come to that. You are correct I did this to myself, but the key to troop survival is a good feeder pack or packs. Our Pack and Troop has grown significantly since my commitment. We are retaining 90% of our cubs and doubling the size of the troop two years in a row. We are working thru some of the growth problems, right now. I view my job as retaining and feeding cubs to the troop. But more to the point it is the way the volunteers are treated thru out the BSA. I received a string of emails from the DE about more rules and regs.......Just about had it. The way the district level people treat us. WHY?

My son is in the troop all ready. Crossed over last year. He will get his first class in 14 months after crossing over, I couldn't be prouder. There are no ACM's currently and no successor apparent CM. I have 4 more years on my commitment to the pack... I have focused on recruiting new leadership. I have a couple of Promising tiger dads whom, I got registered and trained. I am hoping to get one or both to be ACM's soon. I did not want to be CM, I was the web 1 den leader. I stepped up after the female webelo 2 den leader and past CM shacked up together resulting in the divorce of both and the ending of their sons scouting careers. Spent most of the last two weeks making career arrows for our pending cross over. Last year one of the arrows was broke in half before we left the fire ring. The scout smashed it against his head breaking. after spending about 4 hours making and banding it............big sigh. Then mom asked for another one......I told her I would make another but it would cost her $50. She called me an ahole and stormed away to never be seen again. I tried to get the committee to do away with the arrows......No THEIR sons deserve them too, Again no volunteers to make them, so I am stuck doing it too.....I have a notebook in the filing cabinet with directions and info about the how and whys. I probably should just stop making sure it is taken care of and let it fail a time or two. I am involved in the Troop and a Crew for the daughter......as an ASM mostly second adult and the male advisor. The troop has a large adult roster, but mostly they are previous SM's who are too old to camp. I enjoy the troop, the boys want to be there, not being drug along by an over achieving parent. The crew is fun, it is great to see the boys teaching the girls skills and to watch the mix of social and high adventure events.

Well, my FUN quota has changed I guess. we live in a poor urban area and had a parent spend several hundred dollars on one of the ebay or website "WINNER" cars. Had a pinewood derby workshop day, NONE of the Pack Leadership attended, even though they were scheduled. ALL of the Parents dumped and ran. I was the sole adult. So for four hours I had 20 scouts, trying to help sand and design and cut. Yep violated youth protection because of parents seeking baby sitting and irresponsible leaders. The intent of the day was for parent and boy to use the pack owned band saws and hand tools to help the new parents and scouts be successful on the day. I had one parent 2 hours late picking up their scout, so I had the boy for 6 hours. We have one parent complaining that another webelo doesn't deserve the arrow of light. Bickering and lying among the parents about the amount of rank and awards earned for the career arrows. Parents refusing to pay the program fee and applying for pack aid.....both parents are working and they live in a $150,000 house and drive new cars, one with temp tags. Other parents getting wind of it and asking why they need to pay. I am getting beat up by the DE because we are going out of council to summer camp again. We finally got a Unit commissioner, wish I never met the man, beating me up about FOS. As his introduction he conducted a uniform inspection that ended in tears for several young men. I asked him to leave which resulted in a call from the DE and being told I can't do throw him out. We had a parent complain to Family services which resulted in a social worker at one of the den meeting during the month of January. No idea what the complaint was or is, I have inquired about it, but because I am not named or involved. Graduation camp out the we MUST have. No one will volunteer to head the event. Trying something new and everyone is mad because I have changed location and event schedule. I tried to just cancel it and that pissed them off even more. I give up. Never a thank you or good job, not that it is a reason why I do it, but it would be nice. Guess I am burning out. We are going camping next week end with the troop and the following weekend with the crew. I am looking forward to it.

Lawsuits? Fat inactive boys? Complaining parents? Complaining District executive? Expensive Training. After reading the story about that scout in florida, I just wonder. Then engineer spouting off about EXPECTING trained leaders for his $15 a year. Like most scout volunteers I pay for training out of my own pocket. Several thousand dollars to date for the cost of training, gear, travel and motels. Not a complaint just a statement. As a volunteer I have to tread a confusing maze of rules and guidelines, I have to compete with youth sports and church youth groups, I am chastised by district if my enrollment drops or FOS donation is off. I deal with complaining parents about lack of activities, family schedule conflicts, in the middle of pinewood season....dealing with ebay purchased cars, accusations of cheating and $100 sets of wheels. Parents complaining about boys cheating on advancement and on and on and on. I ask again, Why? To be sued by an ungrateful parent for their out of shape kid. Try excluding him because of his physical condition, you will get sued for that too. How about if one of those scouts makes an accusation, your out, even if your eventually cleared your reputation is irrecoverably damaged. You are thru in scouting even if your cleared. So is it worth it????? (This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

Please....... I agree that the boy was outa shape, I also agree that the SM should have called for help an hour or more earlier than he did. I don't think the hike was difficult. They could have started earlier in the day, in cooler temps. Please, we hike all the time in 90 degree weather in the foothills of Appalachia. Not mountains but we typically clime 3000 feet of vertical in about 10 miles. Anyone who thinks IOLS first aid training is remotely adequate, come here ya need a slap in the back of the head. Isn't the Red Cross wilderness first aid required to go to the high adventure bases. Hiking suggestions for those who don't hike 1. Hydrate on the way to the hike, everyone should drink 800ml or more on the way in the van or cars. The body can only absorb water at a very slow rate, and once active the boys won't drink. 2. Stop for hydration breaks every 15 minutes. watch everyone and have their buddy's watch and make sure everyone's drinking. If there is a doubt you get to drink again 3. Make sure everyone is peeing, if you have a lad who isn't, keep him close at by and have him drink every 5 minutes or so till he does. copious and clear, even our cubs know that one. we also use hydrate or die. 4. Snacking along the way, I like gummy bears, harbos the good ones. sugar keeps the guys going. Trail mix is good. there are some sports snacks that are good too, sports beans, shok blocks and gels. 5. Solid lunch, we take pocket rockets and make ramen noodles, sodium is your friend when it is hot. Everyone needs a solid breakfast before we start, Most don't eat breakfast anymore, then for lunch they bring a hoggie and a coke and no trail snacks. I have stopped at the carryout more than once for snacks for boys who did no bring. City dwellers aren't used to real physical activity. I got a question for the group........If we go backpacking and I have a scout who does not meet the BMI guidelines am I opening my self up for problems if he has a problem???????

Want to see scouters not following the scout law and oath, go no further than your woodbadge course and the game of life. Stolen????? what exactly has she stolen? In a nutshell, it is my understanding that the Charter Organization is the only one who can do anything about missing money.`

I have used Arrow-of-light-awards.com and we were disappointed in the arrows. While the quality if fine, I like a more rustic arrow. They use white feathers and appear to just stain the entire arrow after assembly. the tips are not very authentic either. A disappointment for the amount of money we spent. This year we bought from arrowoflightawards.com and are much happier with the arrows. us actual turkey feathers and looks like a genuine flint arrow head. I have been banding them over the last couple of weeks. Just my opinion

I don't think we have ever spent more than $20 on a sled. Usually we have left overs from previous years. donated skis from craigs list and a few hours on a saturday afternoon. I am going to tell you spending $250 bucks on a sled is crazy, especially for a webelos den.......If you want me to help you with some of that excess money I can forward you an address or paypal account info. Our boys need more basic things like uniforms and books instead of something as frivolous as a Klondike sled. Not shooting the messenger, a scout is thrifty after all. What lesson is there in throwing money at a problem????? Sounds to me like one den decided they wanted to do it and built a sled. The other den decided to do it at the 11th hour. Can you imagine how much priority shipping is going to be on something the size of a sled. I bet your gonna have $400 in the endeavor. Before you spend the money I have 6 boys in my pack that could use uniforms........our uniform closet is bare.......

I feel lucky I have the original with black bull and the tail over the shoulder seam. There is only three or four patches you can wear on the jacket officially. I have seen some of those jackets with a guess of 100 patches on them, to each his own. Yea yea uniform police bust my chops that it doesn't actually mean anything. Lore is that if you hike the tooth you can wear the tail over the seam. Mine is over, but you also know how I feel about the uniform police.

I am a gear nut and own probably 20 different tents My favorite are Alps zephyr 1.0's single man tents. light portable two vestibules I like small and portable for most of my needs. I don't spend more than 8 hours in it a day any way so why luck 300 pounds worth of crap around to show off. I would rather set the example than the extreme. I understand having the Grand Showman tent from a SM impressing his Troop and those around him. But is that who we have become. Desk and carpet, you have got to ask yourself why????? Heck he would need a trailer to lug his gear around alone. Seattle was this a weekend event???????

Eagle.....No offense taken. to be real honest how can I be offended by someone I do not know. I have run into scouters who have tried to exclude or assumed I couldn't do things because of the CPAP machine. THERE IS NO EXCUSE if you actually want to do the activity My point is.......If you need help with a solution contact me and I will work with you to make it happen. Backpacking, canoeing and rafting trips are not a problem with proper preparations.