Basementdweller

In thinking about it, those who post regularly on this forum are the .25%er's the super hard core scouters. From time to time we get a visitor who is looking to skirt a rule or looking for advise, but generally they don't stick around.

Ya know Eagle.......it is easy to get depressed. Adults who forget about who they serve or why they are involved...... someone pointed out that Basement is only in scouting for the outing. Well the outing removed my boys from the inner city and less than traditional homes. Their problems are more in their control, something like making sure they don't burn the pancakes or pick a good tent site. Broken homes, violence, theft and discrimination are my boys norms. Scouting is their escape and it probably is mine as well.

Had one of our neighboring troops attend the same summer camp the same week as us. We were very disappointed in the quality of the T-1 program. So we tested our boys and most did not have the knowledge for tenderfoot. The neighboring troop gave their boys 1st class no testing involved. So who is right or wrong????

Back country snob that is a new one........Heck I can get more solitude backpacking here in ohio than I can get on the AT. I probably passed 100 people on saturday on the AT, here in Ohio I passed zero, even covering roughly the same distance. How many times have you arrived at a state park and they ranger says, don't move the picnic tables, don't take up the shelter, the boys must have supervision at the showers, don't dig holes, don't dam up the creek, respect the quiet hours on and on and on.

hardy.....Fair enough. In thinking about the trip there were some fairly small guys, but not 10 or 11 years old. So I am going to say that most of these scouts had more than a couple of years under their belts. this trip is not the sort of thing I would not take a 10 or 11 year old new cross over on. 1st most of them are not 80 lbs soaking wet, so they cannot carry all their own gear let alone food or their part of the shared gear. OGE.....I am not opposed to going into the backcountry with a troop......Most of the troops I encountered did a nice,no, great job. I am guessing inexperience or NO experienced adult leadership and as a result no trained or poorly trained youth leadership. Just reading a book does not give you the needed skills. sort of like kudu, I am working on creating a webpage dedicated to guiding Boy scout Leaders, youth and adult, in best practices, etiquette when it comes to sharing trail systems, campgrounds and facilities with the public. No the oath and law don't cut it. Remember the post of one troop renting a shelter only to be displaced by another troop who rented a nearby campsite because they showed up first. The discussion about boy scouts and picnic tables. On and on and on. Of course the folks that would read such a guide probably would not be one of the problems anyhow. But if you reach one leader with a new idea it is worth it.

Gotta a giggle reading the old threads...... Eagle mills factorys or farms will always be a point of contention. I don't like them......but it is just one style of troop.

Our average was about $300 our top seller was $525. Our councils top seller last year had $60k. Unbelievable. We have a neighboring Pack that has a company owner that buys multiple thousands of dollars for gifts.

Summer camp for $600 would be a deal breaker for us. Our entire program per boy including summer camp is $534, that is every camp out advancement everything. Our area of town has a median income of $22k per year. Barry go a head attack my motivation and direction I am an easy target. I could care less. So please enlighten me how having money and being involved in scouting in the burbs makes you a better citizen than us poor black and Hispanic folks in da hood. Yes we fund raise.....It is really tough to fund raise in our neighborhoods. The people on the other side of the outer belt do not allow us to sell candy bars or wreaths or mulch in "THEIR" territory. They have called and complained to the DE and district committee about it and we were told to respect their turf. In other words get back on your side of the outer belt. The entire not participating in district thing is working well, the DE still calls from time to time as does the FOS chairman. The SM brought me the Packs recharter packet.....I finished it got a check from the treasurer and dropped it in the mail.......The week on the AT was very relaxing, I thought briefly of blake and being able to do this most every weekend.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

Just curious, How many 10 year old first class scouts out there??????? I bet more than we care to admit. In all honesty how many 10 year olds can take care of themselves on a camp. Not too many, not going to argue the point because we have a lot of type A parents who will argue other wise.

Ya know Barry, the scouts know who is rich or not. It is very apparent at summer camp. The troops zipping along in Gators or the rest of us eating their dust. The troops that show up in a bus, not school, and tandem axle trailer painted to match Last summer there was a comment from a troop from a very wealthy community, not a suburb, to one of my scouts regarding vocational training and him cleaning our table after lunch. There was a half hearted apology......but that is how we are viewed. Most of my scouts have skin colors other than white

I am guessing that our troop runs the most frugal program around. Our camp outs are $10 a head, this covers gas and propane and the occasional campsite fee. We have troops that have access to airplanes for cryin out loud. The one fellow was talking about flying to summer camp. Troop owned buses, trailers, and high end gear. I cannot imagine what mom and dad make a year. Heck my youth experience. Our troop did not own much more than a patrol box.....I had a tent I bought from JcPenny for $29. I am guessing that a troop that flys to summer camp have a much different opinion on what scouting is than my boys who pile into our trucks and throw their packs into the bed and go to summer camp. I also understand that my boys if they are lucky will be trades men, truck drivers or firemen, where the rich troops scouts will be executives, company reps or trust fund kids......Not hatin, just sayin I understand that changing economic classes is nearly impossible. I wonder whose scouting experience is richer????

All of the troops that are Eagle mill would disappear.....maybe not overnight but very quickly I don't think that it would impact our program at all, I have been wrong before. Our boys are not advancement driven, but enjoy each others company and adventure.

Fair enough eagle. You can give the sermon, maybe someone will take one point away from it. That might give me a reason to go to round table. Speak for a couple of moments on Leave no Trace and Outdoor utilization ethics. Of course that would be if the good old boys at round table will let me. I could see speaking on one point per month for less than 5 minutes and be available for questions during breaks.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

Eagle while I appreciate and respect your enthusiasm for the AT. I am not sure your promotion of it is that great an idea. There is no way an hour talk at the US or IOLS training even remotely prepares an Adult to take a troop on a trek like this. Boy lead or not the 13 or 14 year old that has the skill set to do it is a rare bird.......These adult computer types believe they can read a book and have it all figured out, just like that guy in NH. I believe we need IOLS, AOLS and MOLS....with Master of outdoor leadership skills required for a tour plan to go backpacking on public trail systems, state and national parks and forests. I would have no problem taking a quality AOLS or MOLS course. with that said....it would need to be put on by a professional staff, I just believe volunteer instructors egos and attitudes would be a problem. I remember being taught about backpacking at my own IOLS course by a fellow who never actually went on a multi day trip.

moose.....gotta say I am pretty tired of the Scouter attitude of non confrontation. Avoid confrontation and complete honesty at all cost. An Adult Eagle scout with two scouts that are probably at least star, got lost on an established trail system with a map and compass in their possession. Not only they got lost, but required a helicopter to rescue them.... HOW DOES IT GET MORE PATHETIC THAN THAT?????? Rapidly loosing patience with the stupid crap. Call it like it is and stop making excuses for the clown, it is embarrassing (This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

yeah, pack that is really depressing. I did not encounter 4wd or atv folks, I am sure there are good and bad in that group as well. the human highlight of my trip oddly enough, was spent thursday night at a shelter site with a husband, wife with their 4 year old daughter. She had a hello kitty backpack and was quite the trooper. She asked if I could help her dad make a fire so she could have some marshmellows. Well irregardless.....I enjoyed my trip and I hope to get away again soon. I will make sure I adjust my attitude to don't give a hoot and enjoy my trip.

Ya know eagle......the ticket wasn't that big a deal. It was stuff that I would and should normally do with my group. I did do some presentation to a couple of other packs and troops, which I will never do again. I took some training a couple of weeks ago, Did my presentation to my Pack and we have a hike this coming saturday to do the field work and I am done. no big deal. Why everyone makes such a big deal about the ticket mystifies me, of course the entire mystic of woodbadge is lost on me.

or the troop of 6 that washed there plates in the water source.

or the troop of 17 that completely depleted a water source

I passed a troop of 40 on the trail. they were taking a break completely blocking the trail on a fairly narrow uphill.

Rush.....The woodbadge course that BP created is long dead. This is kinda like a mom and pop restaurant that turns franchise. The original was the best, then they start adjusting the menu to appeal to a broader audience, change the lighting and the paint. While it still says mom and pops diner on the door it isn't the same as the original. I am going to say that my experience while not typical is not as atypical as your trying to portray it. More an more folks are walking away from WB saying WTH. BTW, I finished my ticket, have my binders of documentation. Ticket councilor is too busy to meet with me. Guess it will be after the first of the year.

I stand corrected. What local troops do hiking and camping is great and good. The BS oath and law are adequate training and code for such situations. Far as confronting three guys bigger than myself in the back country is stupid in my book, scouts or not. I hold myself and the groups I am involved with to a higher standard. I will take what I experienced and apply it to these groups.

Joebob, I never intended on sleeping in the shelter. I was enjoying sitting on a dry flat surface to cook and eat dinner out of the wind.

As a WBer I think the whole thing is a train wreck. Scrap woodbadge or call it a management course. Then offer AOLS....Advance Outdoor leadership skills and I would like to see a MOLS course, master outdoor leadership skills, sorta long the lines of the LNT master educator course, a week of living out of a backpack, learning and teaching the skills. Require AOLS for a tour plan for anything more remote than staying at a scout camp. Personally I would not have a problem if trained as a MOLS offering to take patrol sized groups into the backcountry. Sort of a District level Master outdoorsman.

So it is ok to take a troop of 40 boys into the back country or trail?????? I guess I don't want some of these areas to start to look like our over utilized, beat up scout camps