Nessmuk

For brick and mortar breed filth and crime, With a pulse of evil that throbs and beats; And men are withered before their prime By the curse paved in with the lanes and streets. And lungs are poisoned and shoulders bowed, In the smothering reek of mill and mine; And death stalks in on the struggling crowd- But he shuns the shadow of oak and pine.

As usual several of you have twisted things around with text bites trying to make a case that does not exist.. My basic point is simple (many in the current generation of Scouters is softening the outdoor experience/method so much that it is highly questionable as an outdoor experience anymore) and if you don't agree, then fine.. I don't expect that you must agree. But if you do disagree, it would seem sensible to support your argument with a logical rationale and maybe some sort of underlying principles to which you subscribe in your position. I now have been unfairly accused of many things - including being insensitive to disabled Scouters/Scouts - Another wonderful tactic often used by liberals and other truth-twisters. I.e "If you have no basis to argue rationally, look for a way to smear the other guy - using any small chunk of his comment as you can." Still while you all have hurled insults and attemtped to make me appear differently than the real intent of my comments, you still have not come up with any valid basis for a position that says we should make the outdoors as easy as possible for Scouts - including electricity in camps.. One is a thousand types of exceptions don't make a case.. You refer to me as the intolerant one, yet it is you who are intolerant - expecting me to blindly agree with your unsubstantiated and unfounded positions and if I don't, I am cast out as intolerant and old fashioned and other such arbitrary accusations. If it hurts you that I refer to the Girl Scouts (incorrectly stated as the GSA), then get over it. It's commonly understoodt that girl-based activites are softer (not always of course)- but generally so.. Another good trigger for some of you to go on some anti-manhood feminazi rant. My point with this comment is also rooted in other non-canvas tent related topics that are covered well enough in threads started by a guy named 'Pappy' some time ago. How did canvas tents turn into this? I started the 'canvas tents' topic because 1) I am truly interested in the topic and want to see what others may have to write about it, 2) I wanted to test a discussion about something related to a traditional Scouting topic to see the effect - and without much waiting the concept was attacked and dimissed without any decent presentation of a position on the matter.. A defense of the canvas tent idea was dismissed arbitarily or by citing non-applicable exceptions or by unfounded accusations. All of this leads to : This proves to me that this forum (while having a few useful nuggets here and there) is mostly a place for a group of liberal revisionist Scouters to build their own circular consensus that what they are advocate doing to Scouting is justified and in the best interest of Scouting - no matter the topic or controversy, you seek to stand on the smearing of the person with a strong sound argument and use meaningless insults of intolerance and such.. Any humorous jab or politically incorrect comment is treated as serious business used to trump up an attack, while the real serious questions get silly little typical liberal style answers.. I come and go in this forum - mostly because of available time.. I always come back with "Ok - one more chance" in mind, but without any shred of a thought of arbitrarily caving on principle into whimsical ideas of the Obama-like crowd that lives here. No more.. I'm done wasting my time with lib Scouters. And I am ever more determined to advocate Traditional Scouting and the fundamentals of the real original movement. This forum is a "Matrix" style tarpit for anyone who thinks they are surfing into a worthwhile and meaningful discussion of Scouting.. Armchair-bound non-Scouters is the "real deal" at this address. I leave you all to your virtual non-scouting that you have conjured. Nessmuk is headed for the hills. "Struggle on!" NonScouter.com forum. For brick and mortar breed filth and crime, With a pulse of evil that throbs and beats; And men are withered before their prime By the curse paved in with the lanes and streets. And lungs are poisoned and shoulders bowed, In the smothering reek of mill and mine; And death stalks in on the struggling crowd- But he shuns the shadow of oak and pine.

If I'm arrogant because I claim that it softens the outdoor experience too much to have power in camp, then so be it.. And to the comment about none of this having to do with Scouting.... The "outdoor method" is a major part of Scouting and is not the RV method. Uber Scouter - a compliment IMO. It's always cute how some folks (in this forum especially) just end up on the "change for the sake of change" / "not keeping up with the times" argument. Because they won't address the substance or principles of their view - usually because they have none. And as far as what people are suggesting - that's not the point ..Point is Scouts and Scouters /parents are in fact bringing electronics to camp - more and more - TV's, frig, DVD player, PC's .. I've seen it. Medical purposes argument - Sure.. But maybe they should stay in a cabin up at the staff area. I see this as the rare exception - like the old argument justifying no uniform because some kids are too poor to buy one. I hope you feel better SR540..

Shortridge - I don't have any experience with these guys, but I have been eyeing their stuff.. Lots of good reference info on their site too.. Somewhere I have a whole folder of linsk and catalogs on canvas tent mnfr's.. Can't find it now.. Will post when found.. Off the top of my head I know Kifaru is top notch gear -packs and tents - Search for their name. http://www.walltentshop.com/

How do you know when Boy Scout camp has become too soft ? SR540Beaver answers that.. " many camps now provide electrical service in the campsites. I've been to two camps that do, but they are in forested locations with high heat and humidity." This confirms my thoughts that maybe the 100th Anniversary is the right time for the BSA to split - one for the people who are here for the "real deal" and the rest can merge with the GSA.

I agree with Kudu that here is a strong "Business Manager" sense to the whole training program..Whereas older Scout training books and current NOLS or other similar references are more about Outdoor Leadership - which can apply to other than outdoor situations - where Business Management applies very little to what we want to do in Scouting. Even in my professional life, it is understood that much of what is pushed in management classes makes little sense in the "real world".

I understand your comments about heat in summer camp.. but canvas tent or otherwise..it's part of any real outdoor experience and I suspect it always will be. An important part of living outdoors begins with understanding and accepting that it's NOT indoors and therefore feels different. As a Scout and adult I have plenty of memories of the hot nights in summer camp..We rolled up the sides and front/back flaps.. As I got older (teen years) we figured out how to rig up fans made from large pieces of cardboard and pulled on a little rope hooked to the mechanism (pioneering!!) that swung the card-board back and forth over the bunks-- In the style of old arab shiek movies.. Then we told the younger guys that if they did'nt get a 100% on camp inspection they had to stay up on shifts all night and fan us. I have also seen scouts rig up wet towels on both ends of the tents and create "swamp coolers" - which really works if the humidity is not too high and there's a little breeze. In Cub Scout Family campouts (like ours last week) I have come to expect all the ADULT heat complaints and electric cords and fans running at night etc.. The boy don't ever complain -- unless Mom or Dad gets em started. Cub Scout camping actually may serve to hurt the 'outdoor method' overall - another thread someday. In Boy Scouts, if Mom and/or Dad are coming along and running electric cords (whining about heat etc)then there's a REAL problem with the way the outfit is being run - aside from heat.. My Cub Scout camping experiences tell me that we need to get boys away from Mom and Dad when outdoors - Because they cause more prob's than they solve.. It's also a shame how soft in general Americans have become..It's a rare thing to meet someone who can live comfortably in the outdoors. When I do, it's an extreme pleasure. What are you teaching your Boy Scouts when you "run electric cords" to your tent and moan so much over the heat/humidity??.. Has anyone ever suggested that maybe you should just stay home? I know its harsh, but its an option. And if your going to ruin the purpose of the experience for the rest of us, maybe its a good option. Oh yeah --Dealing with the heat /humidity anywhere in the typical summer camp scene in the US is 95% in your head - i.e. its a mental adjustment. Sure you gotta drink the right amount of water etc. an dthere are trick sto stayoing cool. But people tend to get themselves all worked up about it and make it worse.. While laying there, just think about how fully dressed/geared up soldiers are doing it in Iraq and you will snooze off cool and comfy.. Oh yeah one more trick.. When I was a Scout in summer camp we had fire cans out in front of each tent. They had to stay full all the time. I recall taking ice cubes and putting them in the fire-water can. I would set the can next to my bunk and pat myself down with the cool wet cloth until asleep. So instead of whining - we did stuff to solve the problem.. It seems nowadays in many cases boys have Mommy and Daddy right there in camp to do everything for them - including whine.

Newspapers vary in their reading level - some at 5th Grade (USA Today) and some at maybe 10th Grade (Wall Street Journal).. I would pick something in between (8th to 9th) for Leader Training - not too high for unskilled or blue collar and not too far down for college grads. There's always higher level (usu. older) materials for the more educated.. But you always need a basis that will catch most everyone. I wonder what level military manuals are written at.. That would be a good data point.

From another thread... I answered what I would do/am doing differently in Basic Adult Leader Training (based on my comments about my Wood Badge experience) I was primarily focusing on Non-Wood Badge training in my response. What would you all do?

What would I do differently..?? Well -- alot.. But first let me answer by saying that I HAVE DONE quite a bit differently as I have conducted most of the basic training programs in addition to Pow Wow - where I have great flexibility to build my session plans. When I first started helping out in training, the course leader said - "Here, cover this section." I added some of my own elements and ideas on the fly that very first time and the Trainer liked it..So I kept on building my own library and lesson plans to add to the official materials. 1) Kill the current training videos.. They are embarrassing - if not idiotic. 2) Replace the above with substantive and serious material that shows people that they are not wasting their afternoon (or whole day), but are being trained to serve in a serious and important role. 3) Get rid of the silly components like "building the paper bridge" part of the Basic Cub Scout Leader Training, or maybe it's in NLE?? 4) Stick with the foundational and basic elements of Scouting and emphasize them. Uniforms and Patrol Method, Citizenship, Principles of the Promise and Law, etc.. 5) Provide all leaders with a REAL Handbook - not the 3 Ring Binder Admin thing that ends up in the garbage.. Good leaders will build their own 3 ring binders full of resources, ideas, and reference materials. I use the 30's and 40's SM Handbooks a lot and it is wonderful - even today.. 6) Use real hands-on (learn-by-doing) activities.. I always fold in active Cub games for adults to play - like the stave wrestling challenge.. I usually pick the strongest males in the group to challenge me and get beat (or surprise them) or if I have a lot of WEBELOS Leaders - do a blanket & pole litter demonstration as an example of the types of activities they should be doing in WEBELOS meetings. I recently conducted a Den Chief session (4 hours) and I had several similar actrivities to keep the Boy's attention..I showed the importance of games for Cubs and emphasized meeting the variety of needs by pointing to a pile of boxes and my craft junk bin and said "Build a bean bag toss game in 5 minutes".. They built one with a variety of targets and various ranges and a scoring system - It looked first rate for 3 boys working 5 minutes. They used balloons and also figured out how to make bean bags with ziploc baggies and beans or beads.. 7) Stop telling leaders they can't say the names of "Jesus" and "God". Instead explain to them at the 30Kft level that they need to be sensitive to different religions and use their judgement and knowledge of the families/ boys in conducting prayers and religious activities. I was working at one training event (OLS I think) and during the Scout's Own Session, we nearly had a mutiny on our hands when the instructor said something like this. We had a handful of people who were highly educated and immediately engaged in a serious theological discussion/debate - along with several less educated but equally faithful who challenged this instructor --who will probably not ever aagin make such silly remarks as if they were rules to be followed. 8) Stop teaching the G2SS as a set of rules to blindly follow, but explain it as a guide and delve into a basic presentation of Risk Management (ORM for Gunny) and go over the anatomy of "how and why bad things happen" to Scouts and Adult Leaders. 9) Set expectations about the example they are to set. Give them a high target to aim for and inpsire them. Don't tell them " Do what ever you wanna do, cause nobody can do anything to you" and "anything is better than nothing". Read them stories of boys who have saved lives because of what they learned in Scouting..Quotes from war heros and astronauts who were Scouts etc. etc.. Most people (deep inside) want to be challenged (just like boys do) and if they are going to spend lots of time (which they will likely) on Scouting, it ought to have real meaning for them.. How anyone could look at the current videos/ training materials and get inspired is beyond me.. I wanted to run out screaming the first time I saw them, but I resolved instead to be a Trainer someday and toss the things in the can.

Thanks for commenting SR540Beaver.. On the tripping- I have a nylon (canvas version in the works) pyramid style from Cabelas -with guy lines and everyone in camp passers-by comment on how much they like the style. I show them the single pole in the center and they wonder why they mess with shockcorded fiberglass rods. The Cubs are tripping over the guy lines and I tell them it's my "Cub Scout Trap" and then I say "no running in camp" and "be observant" - and then I trip over my own guy line - LOL. Also I am dismayed at how I hear so many comments from Scouters about how hard it is to teach Scouts to do things (like set up a tent) and how new designs and technology serve as their way to accomodate the Scout's supposed inability to learn (or Scouter's inability to teach).. It was not like this in decades past (or the 80's even).. I think most people are too quick to write themselves an 'excuse note' just because "things are different now".. Just being patient and teaching a boy to overcome the challenges of a wall tent and its maintenance builds into him an attitude or mindset that is much more valuable in his future than any badge or walking around a sea of scouts to be entertained by a bunch of adults. If it's not easy, your probably doing the right thing.

OK Gunny, I'll agree with your conclusion. But my observations are from ten's of troops - many many troops - not including the ones I observed and was a member of as a Scout. Oh yeah Uncle Joe's (totally fictional) truck does not stay there.. He goes home after dropping off the watermelon.. Leaves the patrol alone.. You appear to have a lot of exceptions and reasons you can't do it - and so you just can't do it. I guess I am just so fortunate I can hike 5 miles from my small town and camp in the woods. Yeah I live in a Fred MacMurray movie and we don't allow no cussin or smokin dope round here either. I know I would not put so much blood and sweat into a program if I had zero chance to make it the way I knew it should be. I would start up something else. You have decided "it aint gonna happen". No sense in saying anymore. Enjoy..

Great gift and story Moxieman.. By the way, went up to Maine (Down East) two summers ago and loved it..Fell in love with Moxie too. My kids still talk about it. Next trip is to Baxter St Park (I think).. Been watching for HD sewing machines on Ebay..There's a lot of them there. Mountain Man weekend is a big attractant for Scouts here (and no Mountains).. Which makes me wonder if the traditional skills are what they are attracted to - which leads to.. Well you know..more tradittional scouting.

Like I said the prob is with the training before WB

Don't get me wrong.. Woodbadge was not all bad. I just did not expect that they would not reinforce the Patrol Method and go into advanced Scouting topics. The leadership training was way overemphasized and people - no matter what walk of life - just don't need it presented the way I saw it prsented. You teach some basics of communication, organization, interpersonal / team dynamics and that's enough.. Get to the Scouting stuff. And we wathed a poor choice for a leadership movie and sang a really uninspiring song that I suppose is the sam everywhere. I think maybe my gripe is more with the overall training prgram and especially the videos that National puts out. Most adults have to be dragged to training because the materials and curriculum are so bad. The basic training needs to be revamped and some standards are needed in what is taught.