NeilLup

In the previous generation of Wood Badge, one of the things that we learned was that whenever there is any change in the membership of a group -- gain one or lose one -- it's a new group. If it is allowed to stay the old group or act like the old group, then the newcomer is permanently an outsider. We learned some very specific skills to reinforce the creating of a new group where everyone is a newcomer. Some have more experience than others but it's a new group and everybody is a newcomer. One of these skills, for example, is to have the group leader indicate that it is a new group with XXXXX now a member and then have every member introduce herself or himself. The same type of skills are in the "who me?" game in 21st Century Wood Badge. Another part of the "Band of Brothers" situation may be the age difference. Fourteen year olds are very different from eleven year olds, can be quite scary to them and aren't necessarily welcoming at all. That can take training and leadership to address.

Hello, Things still seem to be shaking out. I would say that for individual units, the effect of the National reorganization in the short term will be small. Hopefully, over time, it will be substantive and positive. For Districts, pretty much the same. For councils, in some areas like financial support, things may change a bit. But even there, I believe that it will take some time. Some very good National pros are now in leadership positions as are some very good National volunteers.

Hello Pack15nissan, I appreciate your comment. However, it really isn't just worrying on my part. Rather, it is based on a certain amount of experience. It can be very easy to risk burning out Webelos Scouts. It is great fun for the adults and the kids will do what it is suggested or implied that they do. Even something said like "Wouldn't you like to try for all 20 Activity Badges?" sets up the challenge for the Webelos Scouts. But there is the risk of burning out the Cub Scouts and the parents in the Webelos year and also the risk that they they join the Troop, there will be nothing new as Tenderfoot Scouts. Everything will have been done previously as Webelos Scouts. Let them get into a bit more depth as Webelos Scouts in some of the activities. Don't make them stamp collectors trying to do everything that's out there.

Some very wise, perceptive and shrewd comments, there, Backwoods. Clearly, you've been around and seen it happen. It clearly can happy that there are "A list" and "B list" Scouts in a Troop. There are some that the SM favors and others that s/he doesn't. I have seen much more commonly that there are "A list", "B list" and "C list" families and parents. There is the in group that says what will happen, the following along group that normally gets to do what the in group plans, and the group that the leadership would be very happy without. In some very good Troops, that latter group can be the helicopter and snowplow parents -- the ones who are only concerned about little Johnny. They likely were very active in Cub Scouting and expect Boy Scouting to be similar to Webelos Scouts. They drop him off late and pick him up early at campouts "Because he is so busy and so many things to do." In the process, he can miss set up and clean up -- what a shame. They will leave a Court of Honor early, right after Johnny has gotten all of his awards. They keep painfully precise records of Johnny's advancement requiremnts and want to enable him to be the youngest Eagle Scout in the history of the BSA. You know the drill. In less strong Troops, the out group can be the ones who do understand the BSA program and are suggesting that it be followed. In those units, the in group may be only interested in their children and their progress and advancement. Over the years, in this forum and others, stories of the goings on of some Troop leadership can be stunning. It can be enough to give a Commissioner gray hair. Can a unit be too big? Absolutely but normally, that becomes very quickly self limiting. A situation like this one where the SM limits the size of campouts is very unusual. It sounds as if the SM has a lot of organizational and program skill or the Scouts would not keep coming back. That's a very unusual situation.

From scouting.org "unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." Precisely what I understand to be the case. Understand that I don't necessarily agree with what I am writing, only that I believe it is the policy. If the Scout is not fulfilling the obligations of the assigned leadership position (Den Chief), the Scoutmaster should remove him from the position. But the Scoutmaster DIDN'T remove the boy from the position. Consequently, the presumption must be that the Scoutmaster considered him to be fulfilling the obligations of the position. This policy is in place to address the problem, which occurred many, many times, that a boy would do his best in a job for a number of months, then come to the SM conference or Board of Review and be told that his job was deficient and he did not meet the requirement. This policy, as I understand it, says that if a boy holds the job, he meets the requirement. If he is deficient in his service, to not qualify for advancement, the SM must remove him from the position. He gets credit for time served until he is removed from the position. Again, not that I necessarily agree with this policy, but this is, as I understand it, the position of the BSA.

From scouting.org "unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." Precisely what I understand to be the case. Understand that I don't necessarily agree with what I am writing, only that I believe it is the policy. If the Scout is not fulfilling the obligations of the assigned leadership position (Den Chief), the Scoutmaster should remove him from the position. But the Scoutmaster DIDN'T remove the boy from the position. Consequently, the presumption must be that the Scoutmaster considered him to be fulfilling the obligations of the position. This policy is in place to address the problem, which occurred many, many times, that a boy would do his best in a job for a number of months, then come to the SM conference or Board of Review and be told that his job was deficient and he did not meet the requirement. This policy, as I understand it, says that if a boy holds the job, he meets the requirement. If he is deficient in his service, to not qualify for advancement, the SM must remove him from the position. He gets credit for time served until he is removed from the position. Again, not that I necessarily agree with this policy, but this is, as I understand it, the position of the BSA.

As I understand matters, being appointed to the position and not being removed from the position is all that is needed.

Hello Seagull, If you read some of the other posts on these boards, you will see more than a few about summer camps which make merit badges, particularly Eagle required merit badges, readily available. The term merit badge mill applies to those summer camps too. It certainly is possible that this is something that troubled your old Scoutmaster. As far as Den Chief goes, the requirement is to "serve actively 4 months in one or more positions of responaibility." There is no training requirement and clarifications from National have made it clear that there is no performance requirement. There is no requirement to "perform the duties of the position." It is neither his fault nor his responsibility that the dens were not meeting during the summer; he was ready to serve. If he has been appointed to the position of Den Chief, he is accruing Position of Responibility time until and unless he is removed from the position by the Scoutmaster or other Troop official. If there is question about his activity, I would think that going to another Hawaiian island to take training certainly demonstrates activity. It would seem that he has more than enough time in a position of responsibility. At any rate, I would suggest that you be sure that his Den Chief time is on the transfer papers.

Hello SeaGull, I come late to this thread but do have a couple of thoughts particularly in your new Troop. 1) Agree with it or not, there is no "performance" requirement for the Position of Responsibility. If the boy is in the job for the required period of time, he meets the requirement. The SM is not permitted to put in a "training" requirement, particularly retroactively. 2) You mentioned that your son has been a First Class Scout since March '08 and PL since Sept '08. From March '08 to Sept '08, did he hold some Position of Responsibility in the Troop (scribe, quartermaster, Den Chief, historian, etc?) If so, he has already met the position of responsibility requirement prior to being PL. This should be noted on his transfer papers. 3) Something else you said that really tweaked my "spidey sense." You mentioned that your son has completed essentially all of the Eagle Required merit badges and only needs time for Personal Management and Personal Fitness. If I were to be a Unit Commissioner visiting that unit and saw a First Class Scout with all of the Eagle Required merit badges, I would emit a loud Hmmmmmm. There is something very, very strange going on. He should have been up for Star Scout a long time ago. There are, I believe, 12 Eagle Required Merit Badges and only 6 Merit Badges are needed for Star Scout. So he already has 10 not counting any optional merit badges. I can see a few possibilities: 1) This unit makes advancement really, really difficult. Possibly by having very few positions of responsibility available 2) Your son is not that interested in advancement 3) (I duck as I write this one) The unit is a merit badge mill and its members get lots and lots of merit badges very early, very quickly and very easily. If this is so, sadly, you son has been badly cheated. He has been led to believe that he has had a proper Scouting experience and he has not. Or some combination. At any rate, other posters have written appropriately about what to do in your old unit, but you are now gone. I can only suggest that you get a proper transfer form properly listing all of his ranks, merit badges, camps and other awards and have it signed by the old unit and then approved at the local council. That is a key proof of advancement and if questions are ever asked, that approved transfer form is a golden document in substantiating what happened in his old unit. Keep a copy of it as it may need to go in with his Eagle application when that would be submitted. We all hope you have a wonderful time in your new unit.

Hello, An important point of the Merit Badge program -- arguably more important than the skills knowledge of the specific merit badge -- is the process of contacting a stranger, talking with them, arranging approval, etc. As others have said, unless it is a very unique merit badge, your son will gain that benefit only if he contacts someone else. Perhaps sadly, the merit badge program isn't for you. It's for the kids. It is a shame if you don't have any kids to work with but that happens. I had it happen to me.

Well said, J-dawg. And there's another factor that you didn't mention. With unpleasant frequency, people playing sports get hurt. And someone can be a fantastic athlete with incredible promise and then have an incident and just not quite be what he or she was before and have that ruin any pro and probably any serious college potential. It can happen in a heartbeat. Contrast that with Scouting. It is only one anecdote, but the gentleman who is now the volunteer National Vice Chairman of the OA for training a number of years ago had a severe traumatic brain injury. He recovered completely and then was running a jewelry shop. In a holdup, a gunshot severed his spinal cord and he is a paraplegic confined to a wheelchair for life. But an active Scouter? You bet. And a fantastic speaker. He also, by the way, is a National level wheelchair tennis player. Very, very tough guy. In addition to all the other things that can happen in sports, injuries can ruin everything in an instant.

The application is due and must be postmarked TODAY -- January 31st, but please be sure that this young man applies for both of the National Eagle Scout scholarships. www.nesa.org He should be able to get in the paperwork for the merit scholarship although you may need to write the letter for him that goes with it. The need based scholarship has some other things needed (transcript, etc.) that he may not have. But get it in. And note that the merit scholarship may be applied for each year through the junior year of college. But the need based scholarship may only be applied for in senior year of high school or, if the boy earned his Eagle after January 31st of his senior year, in his first year of college.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I earned my Eagle not long before I went out of town to college. My troop honored me with a full Eagle presentation kit and a very nice ceremony. I really appreciated it and felt very honored. I came home for the summer and served as an ASM going to a couple of summer camps. This month, I will have completed my 54th year in Scouting. In February of 2007, I flew back from Boston to Baltimore for the 50th anniversary of my Troop. I have never lived in Baltimore after I left for college, but I still consider Troop 750 MY Troop. Your unit is entrusted with the boys who make Eagle Scout. The way that they are treated speaks to how their accomplishments are regarded and to how they should feel about Scouting, particularly going forward. This kind of penny ante thinking stands a great chance to drive this boy out. That is criminal. I hope that if your unit won't spring for the presentation kit, some adult of group of adults will spring for it. I know that I would.

Forgive me, Mr. Boyce, but you're not thinking like a kid. Do you think that a kid will join Tiger Cubs because there is a one in a trillion chance that he'll win a scholarship? Not on your life. Now if there was a chance to win a part in a Disney or Nickelodeon show, that's another matter. And if there were a show on one or both of those channels that showed Scouting in a favorable and exciting light frequently, big impact. But I contrast ESPN that shows the Little League World Series cover to cover on basic cable with the recent Scouting based show on the Ourdoor Life channel. In my community, Outdoor Life is super-premium channel. You have to take the very expensive package to get it. Thanks a lot! I believe, for example, that is Sacha Obama were to join the Brownies and be seen several times in a Brownie uniform, GSUSA would pick up 100,000 members in a heartbeat. Think like kids, think like kids. Not like adults.

In response to 2eagles, I too have seen being an Eagle Scout making a difference in employment. However, I have yet to see being a Tiger Cub having any difference at all in hiring. What message is it sending to youth and what message should we take ourselves when we honestly look in the mirror when we are saying that unless one is an Eagle Scout, the value of Scouting in college applications, employment, etc. is zero or less? It's not Scouting which is valuable, it's that one super bauble that comes at the end of the trail. Otherwise, forget it. Don't waste your time. Kids are no different from the rest of us. In fact, I suspect that, at one time or another, all of us have been children So unless something produces -fun -reward -glory -status and/or -self-satisfaction or else one is forced to do it, they won't do it. And if something produces mocking and being made fun of, why should they do it? We may tell the kids "Aren't you brave? Can't you stand up to those kids mocking you?" But the kids will say to themselves "Why should I if I don't get anything for it?" Kids are no different from the rest of us.

If you mean BSA member rather than strictly "Scout", there are tne many Cub Scout awards ending up with the Arrow of Light. There are the Venturing Awards of Bronze, Gold, Silver, Ranger, Quest and Trust. There is the Quartermaster Award of Sea Scouting.

Oh my. With appropriate respect, the sound you hear is the dinosaurs trumpeting. Permanent patrol leaders were part of Scoutmaster's Wood Badge and part of Leadership Development Wood Badge. They were explicitly removed from 21st Century Wood Badge which became national in about 2001. I have never heard a good reason why. In Leadership Development Wood Badge, the permanent patrol leader was supposed to set a good example by completing his/her ticket and encouraging and coordinating the other patrol members to do so. In the Scoutmaster's course, it was honorific. We also elected a permanent First Class Scout. Again with appropriate respect, your course staff is violating the promise that the course director made at his/her course director's conference to run the course exactly as laid out in the course guide. That does not include permanent patrol leaders.

I would suggest that ScoutNut has it exactly right. These girls want to have a Venturing Crew for a reason. The reason presumably involves either what Venturing is or what they perceive it to be. Likely, that involves some kind of hiking/camping, etc. but not necessarily. You do need to find out. I know of one Venturing leader who had a GSUSA Troop who then registered them (with the girls enthusiastic participation) as a Venturing crew also. Of the about 10 girls involved, all earned the GSUSA Gold Award, the Venturing Silver Award and the Venturing Ranger award. About half earned the Quest or Trust awards. Maybe I am naive (likely, I am naive) but I wouldn't say that you have an all-female Venturing Crew. Rather, I would say you have a Venturing Crew which happens to be all female. BTW, I was recently in the hospital and bumped into the late 20s woman who is director of development for the hospital. Turns out she is the daughter of some long tenure, high level Venturing leaders in an adjoining council. She also was a very successful Venturer herself, holds the Venturing Leadership award, multiple time camp staff member and is a Vigil Honor member of the OA (having first been nominated for membership, of course, as an adult.) Young women do spectacularly well in Venturing and the National Venturing President commonly is female. I wouldn't pretend to be able to delineate the differences between setting up the leadership in a Venturing crew which is all female vs one which is all male or both genders. I am sure that there are significant differences relating to girls vs boys styles of leadership. But having said that, once you know what it is that the girls hope to get by being in Venturing, it is simply a matter of providing it.

With all respect for many posters, I believe that many of us have forgotten what it was like in high school. Sports - Extremely high status. Pep rallies with everyone cheering for you. Being treated as a God around school, particularly if you were a star player. (At least this was how things looked to me as a non-athlete.) At the same time, having it made very clear that you were expected to be at all practices, etc. If you missed one or more, even if you were the star, you sat or were thrown off the team. Lots of newspaper press, news coverage, etc. Band - Some status. Respected by some faculty and some students. Scouts - Negative status. Regarded as wimpy or sissy or as the thing that the low status kids did (the nerds, etc.) If there is a combination of - sports and/or other school activities confer higher status on the boy - sports and/or other school activities are more fun or more rewarding - parents give more supprot for sports and/or other school activities It's not hard to see which the boy will do. Unless it's a boy who doesn't care about status, doesn't care about fun and blows off his parents. I believe that the original post was one of frustration that his SPL and ASPL sometimes either are unable to be Scout leaders or choose not to participate in the Scout activities. The SM can certainly require that the SPL and ASPL attend all Scout activities. Forcing a choice like that very strongly risks your SPL and ASPL leaving their jobs. But the risk then is that the boys you will get as leaders are the ones who don't have the other activities. They likely are much weaker leaders. It's a tough problem. I have also found and noted that if boys like this are the leaders in the Troop, even part time, it increases substantially the stature and credibility of the Troop in the community. You don't want to lose that. The other thing I would be inclined to do in that situation is to talk quite frankly with the SPL and the ASPL. Explain that you do not want them to leave their positions but that the Troop does need youth leadership. Ask how together you can make sure that that leadership is provided. That will likely mean that they will need to work on training some of the younger leaders and, when they are not there, making sure that the acting SPL and/or acting ASPL are designated and well prepared. It may mean that you need two or more ASPLs. Ideally, it isn't your problem and isn't just their problem. Rather, it's a problem for you all to solve and for them to learn how to face and how to solve.

With all respect for many posters, I believe that many of us have forgotten what it was like in high school. Sports - Extremely high status. Pep rallies with everyone cheering for you. Being treated as a God around school, particularly if you were a star player. (At least this was how things looked to me as a non-athlete.) At the same time, having it made very clear that you were expected to be at all practices, etc. If you missed one or more, even if you were the star, you sat or were thrown off the team. Lots of newspaper press, news coverage, etc. Band - Some status. Respected by some faculty and some students. Scouts - Negative status. Regarded as wimpy or sissy or as the thing that the low status kids did (the nerds, etc.) If there is a combination of - sports and/or other school activities confer higher status on the boy - sports and/or other school activities are more fun or more rewarding - parents give more supprot for sports and/or other school activities It's not hard to see which the boy will do. Unless it's a boy who doesn't care about status, doesn't care about fun and blows off his parents. I believe that the original post was one of frustration that his SPL and ASPL sometimes either are unable to be Scout leaders or choose not to participate in the Scout activities. The SM can certainly require that the SPL and ASPL attend all Scout activities. Forcing a choice like that very strongly risks your SPL and ASPL leaving their jobs. But the risk then is that the boys you will get as leaders are the ones who don't have the other activities. They likely are much weaker leaders. It's a tough problem. I have also found and noted that if boys like this are the leaders in the Troop, even part time, it increases substantially the stature and credibility of the Troop in the community. You don't want to lose that. The other thing I would be inclined to do in that situation is to talk quite frankly with the SPL and the ASPL. Explain that you do not want them to leave their positions but that the Troop does need youth leadership. Ask how together you can make sure that that leadership is provided. That will likely mean that they will need to work on training some of the younger leaders and, when they are not there, making sure that the acting SPL and/or acting ASPL are designated and well prepared. It may mean that you need two or more ASPLs. Ideally, it isn't your problem and isn't just their problem. Rather, it's a problem for you all to solve and for them to learn how to face and how to solve.

"If this is how scouting adults treat each other, maybe we are doomed. " I must completely agree with Barry here. I believe that if BP were to hear two adults sincerely discussing or debating the best ways to do Scouting and serve youth, he would welcome the discussion. On the other hand, I believe that if he were to hear adults insulting each other over what Scouting is and the best ways to do Scouting, he would say it represents a grievous misunderstanding of what Scouting is and what the Oath and Law mean.

Beavah and BadenP, In many ways, you are both correct and you make good points. Normally, if negative personnel discussions are occurring concerning a Scout Executive, they are initiated by the local council and concurred in by the Region. I have seen it happen the other way where the Region wants something changed and the local council says "We're really happy with our Scout Executive. We want to keep things just the way that they are." One of the most painful things comes if the Region/National wants something to happen and the local council quite pointedly tells the Scout Executive "We want something else to happen." The Scout Executive can do his best to pursuade but ultimately, he can be in an extremely difficult and untenable position. I have seen that and it is an extremely difficult, no win position for the SE.

Hello emb, I believe that, per the National reorganization in October, Sea Scouting is no longer part of Venturing but is a separate program.

There's something about the idea of the badge and certificate that rubs me wrong. I'm not completely sure why. I agree with praising him in a Cubmaster's minute. I think that a nice signed get well card would be nice. But the tradition in Scouting is that the first aider gets the award, not the victim. It isn't exactly the same, but a few years ago, I had a situation where there was a Scout who was very seriously injured and did first aid on himself. It was determined that he probably saved his own life. I pursued it through the National Court of Honor to see if a nomination for the Heroism Award, Medal of Merit or Honor Medal would be appropriate. The answer came back that it was not. Those honors are for people who do things for others. It is expected that one takes care of ones self. In the same vein, it is expected that a Scout is Brave. He doesn't get a badge for not crying or for not kicking up a fuss. It hurts when someone is told "no" when they want to do something. Should they get a badge for not crying then. Praise him for being brave. But, I would say, no badge and probably no certificate But you are the person on the spot and you have to make the judgement..

Hello, 1) If the "blue card" is what I normally think of as a blue card, It does not contain any information on partial completion. That is on a separate sheet. Perhaps your council or that camp uses a blue sheet for partials. But if not, then just have the Scoutmaster sign a new blue card and you're good to go. 2) There are several purposes to the merit badge program, as with advancement, as with all Scouting. Growth in citizenship character and fitness is the point of all of them. There can be an important lesson to be learned in responsibility by being told. "This is "YOUR" merit badge and your partial completion form. It's your responsibility to have it. If you don't, I'm sorry, but as a counselor it's my policy that I want personally to see you do everything and you'll have to redo it. The boy will likely scream and yell and you'll hear "It's not fair!!!" The parents may scream and yell. But you can bet that the Scout will never forget the lesson learned. And particularly for youth today, the lesson of personal responsibility is a lesson that they rarely get. There is a risk that the Scout will quit. But if you are courteous, kind and friendly, that shouldn't happen. Help him recomplete the requirements. But require him to do it.