NeilLup

Hello Kittle, Another alternative You go to Wood Badge Your son goes (separately) to National Youth Leadership Training(NYLT). You then have a remarkable shared body of knowledge. Your call what you do but your "resource camp" isn't the only alternative available.

As I believe that I posted elsewhere on these board, at a Wood Badge course in 2006, 3 of the participants listed their religion as "pagan." Our Chaplain's Aide is Wiccan (also active duty in the Army) and organized a great Scout's Own service. If one truly believes in the 12th point of the Law, pagans are no less worthy of respect than any other religion which is not one's own religion.

Having been a Council Commissioner twice for a total of 8 years, I find this an extremely interesting thread. The problem is very real. To illustrate the problem, when I took the job the second time, we had about 450 Units which, at the 3/1 recommended ratio, would have required about 150 Unit Commissioners. We had a total of 12 of which about 6 were doing anything useful. There was simply no way in the world that we could come up with 150 people who wanted to do what Commissioners do starting with 6. After my 4 years, we were up to about 40. A big improvement but still far, far short of what we really needed. The problem that I saw was that there weren't anything like enough people able to do what Commissioners should do who were willing and interested in doing what Commissioners should do. What is it, in my opinion, that Commissioners should do? I regard a good Unit Commissioner as a little like a ski patroller. They are unobtrusive and in the background. They visit occasionally and see how things are going. They are friendly and helpful and knowledgeable. They can give tips and help if asked. They know how to watch skiiers and identify who the experts are, who are the intermediates, who are the novices and who are the ones who can get in trouble. They can tell this just at a quick glance. They spend more time watching the ones who might get in trouble but aren't overbearing about it. When a problem occurs, they are there quickly and provide help to the limit of their knowledge and abilities. They know when to call for help and who to ask for help. A difference is that a ski patroller can pull the ticket of a dangerous skiier while a Unit Commissioner can only pursuade. There seems to be a feeling that a Unit Commissioner should have more experience than the Unit leaders with which he or she deals. In my council, the Cub Scout leaders typically had 2-3 years experience while Boy Scout leaders with 20 years experience were not uncommon. Where was I going to come up with 50 or so leaders with 20+ years experience to be the Boy Scout Unit Commissioners? Yet the units would complain that we didn't provide service. And if I had a nickel for every time that I heard that the only place "The only place that real Scouting takes place is a Troop" I could retire a wealthy man. There was a stated feeling that District and Council Scouters were useless drones. There were a number of approaches we used to try to provide service which were too many to document in depth here. They included aggressive recruiting, triage of units for service, electronic communication, buddying up of some leaders, support through the Scout Shops, etc. It will be interesting to see what is recommended from the National Council. Personally, I believe that through electronic communication, automated analysis of unit information, better on-line training, more efficient usage of the Commissioners that we have and positioning of Commissioner Service to make it fun and rewarding for today's leaders will get the job done.

Hello Shortridge, Actually, your percentage of 12% is probably a lot more realistic for Boy Scouts particularly when one considers older boys (i.e. the percentage should be the number of Scouts divided by the number of boys 11-17.) The percentage of Cub Scouts is a bit higher, probably typically in the 20-25% range. However, there are very general numbers and vary greatly from one area to another. That isn't saying that one can't do a lot better. But if you contact your local council, you can find out what is typical for the districts in your council and for the councils in your area.

Hello Beavah, Sounds reasonable. However, if your area is anything like mine, churches are being closed because of too few priests. In many cases, a priest on Sunday has to cover several churches. Not that it's inconceivable to get a priest to come to Sunday services on a campout but it's very, very difficult because of their extremely busy schedules. There are ways to address the situation for Catholics. However, it the person absolutely insists on attending Mass, then addressing it may be impossible other than by going to a church for their regularly scheduled Mass.

"Should I say yes when it's held to me in worship as a sacred writing on par with the Bible? I think not." The challenging question is how to react when other Scouters may regard them as writings as sacred to them as the Bible is to you. How do you act not to disrespect those Scouters? The other possibility is to have any vestage of individual religion removed so that the interfaith service simply says "Sin is bad." That's rather dissatisfying also.

Hello John, I hope you have a wonderful Easter. One can disagree with the approach suggested by the BSA in the Unit of Supplemental Training. The purpose of that unit is not to suggest that it is appropriate for any one individual. Rather it is to suggest that if a unit/District/Council chooses to have an interfaith service, here is how to do it. If any person or group of people choose not to participate, that is a matter of their own personal religious belief. The alternative is having religious observances which actively, rather than psssively, offend others. Examples 1) Prayers which end with "This we pray in Jesus name, amen." This is troubling for Jews, Muslims and others. Nothing wrong with such a prayer by itself. But if a person plans to end with that, they should so mention to the event organizers so that they can be disinvited if that closing is considered unacceptable. 2) An adult grabbing the hat off a boy before prayers were said, saying "Take off your hat! Don't you show respect for God?" The boy was Jewish and Jews pray with their hats on. 3) Serving ham for dinner at camp on Friday night. Again, observant Jews cannot eat ham. The choices would seem to be: a) An interfaith service b) A multitude of sectarian services c) No services and each individual making their own arrangements. The BSA has not chosen to go the route of C and this choice is much more pointed than when I was a Scout in the 50s and 60s. However, the BSA does have a difficult tightrope to walk when aggressively promoting religious observance while including in its members many different religious organizations many of which say "We're right and all others are wrong." The Unit of Supplemental Training was approved by the National Religious Relationships Committee including the several different denominational Religious Relationships Committees. They found it acceptable. It is, of course, the prerogative of any individual to find any religious service other than their own sacreligious. But that would appear to be contrary to the fine print of the 12th point of the Scout Law. "A scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful to his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion."

Hello Rick, There is no question in my mind that you are saying the precise truth and that the document was handed out at your Roundtable. However, I don't believe that there is any chance in the world that it is an official, semi-official or even useful unofficial document. As was mentioned, I would say that a tip-off is the terminology used. The common lauguage would be "at the pleasure of" as "Counselors serve as the pleasure of the President." Saying "at the whim of" appears to empower a degree of arbitrariness and capriciousness that is simply inappropriate. As you well know patrol leaders are elected by the patrol members except in those units where they are appointed by the Scoutmaster or in the religious sponsored units where they are called by God and sustained by the patrol membership. I have never seen a Scouting document suggesting anything else be it at Wood Badge or anyplace else.

Sounds quite reasonable, Albert. You would appear to be fortunate that the adults involved are basically people of good will and only need to be reminded of what proper action should be.

Let's see. Some rules of thumb. A community of 12,000 people. Say 2000-4000 of those are children. Of those, half are girls and not eligible so 1000-2000. Assuming age is distributed pretty evenly, each year group would be about 50-100 boys. The realistic targeted Boy Scout age boys would be about 150-350. Assuming a density of 25% which is neither great or terrible for Boy Scouting, that would mean that in the community, you have 40-85 boys who might reasonably be expected to be be Boy Scouts. If the total membership of the current units is in the 85+ range, it may be tough for the new unit. If it's in the 40 range, then there is probably plenty of reasonable opportunity. Somewhere in between, then it's somewhat in between. If it's a community with a high LDS (Mormon) population where the youth are required to be Boy Scout members, then the numbers get skewed toward the high end. So what, may I ask are the statistics in your community? Is it a young community with lots of kids in the high end of the range. Or is it an older community with very few kids. How many schools are there? How big are the current units? These are the questions that the district asks before trying to start a new unit.

Let's see. Some rules of thumb. A community of 12,000 people. Say 2000-4000 of those are children. Of those, half are girls and not eligible so 1000-2000. Assuming age is distributed pretty evenly, each year group would be about 50-100 boys. The realistic targeted Boy Scout age boys would be about 150-350. Assuming a density of 25% which is neither great or terrible for Boy Scouting, that would mean that in the community, you have 40-85 boys who might reasonably be expected to be be Boy Scouts. If the total membership of the current units is in the 85+ range, it may be tough for the new unit. If it's in the 40 range, then there is probably plenty of reasonable opportunity. Somewhere in between, then it's somewhat in between. If it's a community with a high LDS (Mormon) population where the youth are required to be Boy Scout members, then the numbers get skewed toward the high end. So what, may I ask are the statistics in your community? Is it a young community with lots of kids in the high end of the range. Or is it an older community with very few kids. How many schools are there? How big are the current units? These are the questions that the district asks before trying to start a new unit.

My father has not been with me now for 30 years. I still miss him. When he was asked to say a prayer for a meal, he would say "Good God, let's eat!"

My father has not been with me now for 30 years. But when he was asked to say a prayer for a meal, he would say "Good God, let's eat!"

To get a bit more information, check out the Unit of Supplemental Training on "Conducting an Interfaith Service" on the BSA National website. This has been reviewed and approved by the major religions which participate in National religious relationships. http://scouting.org/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/Interfaith%20Service.aspx This doesn't help particularly with the person or group which wants their own service. In that case, you accommodate as best you can but don't kill yourself. They likely don't get a separate time for their own service but Scouts aren't penalized for participating in their service and not in something else.

To expand a little on Eagle 92's answer, as always, it's not that simple. There are two types of local council Scout shops. National shops Local Council shops If it's a National shop, then the employees are National employees and it's a part of the National organization. In this case, they should help you toward getting the warranty honored pretty easily. If it's a local council shop, then they buy materials from the National supply and sell them. They will still probably help you, but your purchase from scoutstuff.org is no skin off their nose. They had nothing to do with it and would only do it to be helpful. You can find out which it is by asking.

As a starting place toward answering your question, you should take the on-line training. Go to http://www.scouting.org/Applications/MyScoutingFull.aspx Sign in Take "What is Scouting?" and then take the "Troop Committee Challenge" Then come back and ask the question again.

Hello, I suspect that I know the answer that I will get to this question but it needs to be asked anyway. Where is your Chartered Organization in this? Ultimately, it is the Chartered Organization who selects the Committee Chairman and the Scoutmaster. If they have a problem with the SM and the CC being husband and wife, then that's the end of the discussion. If they have a problem or a position on the challenges you have mentioned, then their opinion should prevail. I suspect your answer will be "What Chartered Organization?" or else "They don't care." But if they do care at all, they need to be involved pretty intimately. You also should contact your local District organization and get them involved. If you have a Unit Commissions, get him or her involved. If not, then contact your District Commissioner and/or District Executive. They are trained to help you in situations like this. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, check your local phone book under "Boy Scouts of America" or else go to the National website www.scouting.org and find out what is your local council. Contact them and ask for help. That's why they're there.

On at least 3-4 occasions in my 50+ years in Scouting, I have felt that I had to "ring the bell." In one case, it cost me a good Scouting friend. Another case probably cost me 5-10 years delay in being selected for the Silver Beaver. I believe that my actions were proper in each case; however, I'm not sure that I couldn't have handled things better. I believe that Beavah has good counsel in this case, but it needs to be tempered with iron. Don't expect any rewards for doing this. Expect that you may lose friends and if these people are powerful in your community, it may be to your personal disadvantage. What to do? 1) Consider talking with the people. Be friendly, courteous and kind. Decide if you want to talk separately or together. Be sure that you make is clear that what they are doing is contrary to the Guide to Safe Scouting and, frankly, to good adult/youth behavior. Ask if they are willing to stop this drinking. Possible results: 1) You will be disinvited from further participation in campouts 2) You will be told that if you feel so strongly, you can be the new leader and they will no longer participate 3) You will be told that it is none of your business 4) You will be told that you're being a goody-goody and naive. 5) Something else Depending upon what happens next and how you feel, you might have to go to another unit or might go the Scout Executive or both. I would suggest that you NOT talk with anyone other than the individuals involved and the Scout Executive. This is not an area to start rumors. The proper action within Scouting is to talk to the Scout Exec. If you wish, you can tell the individuals that you plan to talk to the SE or not as you see fit. Action by the SE is not automatic and can result in graded discipline. But ultimately, if the SE is involved and matters go to their ultimate, their membership in the BSA can be permanently revoked. If the SE is good and reasonable, he will negotiate with them and obtain an agreement not to drink in future campouts This may, or may not be honored. But this is a matter for the SE. NOt for you, particularly if the COR is involved.

Hello gwd-Scouter, From what I understand of the situation, you don't particularly have a problem. Let's say that you have everybody present. Nine older Scouts and 12 new Scouts. First, you easily meet the 50% quorum necessary to hold an election. You would only need to have 11 Scouts present to hold the election. Now let's say that all 12 new Scouts abstain so that only 9 Scouts are voting. Any name which could appear on 5 of the voting ballots would be elected as I understand matters. The count for the quorum and the count for who gets elected are totally separate.

I'm sorry to be picky, but the word is Webelos. Always with an "s". Singular or plural. And it is an adjective. So Webelos Scout, Webelos Leader, Webelos den, etc.

Hello Scouter 760, You're right about abstentions in an OA election with one exception. Scouts who abstain count toward the 50% present which I believe is necessary to have a valid election. That's one of the problems which can arise with elections at summer camp. You need to have at least 50% of the total registered Troop membership there.

I have just read this amazing thread. Ms Summer, I too apologize for what your son is going through. However, and it probably won't make you feel particularly good, jumping through flaming hoops like this is what getting the Eagle used to be for a lot of us. So your son is getting his Eagle the old fashioned way. The good thing about that is -- that's the process that produced the old fashioned Eagle that made the Eagle something worth getting. I slao recognize the quote of the football coach who said "it is what it is" and that causes me stark terror that this might be my council. I sure hope not. But if you're willing to send me a private message with what your town and council are, maybe I know them. This kind of thing does happen. Last fall, I had to advise a Scout and father through exactly this kind of thing and it was reversed at the Council level. The final thing that truly does concern me. I hope that this doesn't turn your son off Scouting. He sounds like a great guy. I hope that he resolves that when he is in a position of authority, he will learn from this and treat other people in a very different way. If so, then some good may come from the experience.

To quote my old Wood Badge Course Director "Don't overwork the problem." I have had a little involvement with the new National structure and it currently seems to be fluid, both in terms of professional and of volunteer responsibilities. So if you have a specific task you want or need to get done, your local council can probably help you find the current right person. But exactly how things will happen when all the dust has settled is still a bit up in the air.

Hello CubScoutJo, The site you found is part of the official National BSA website, so I believe it should be considered authoritative. Having said that, there is more than one person at National and it is entirely possible that one person wrote the information on the website and another the AC&P with a different "flavor" to what was written. But the information you got was "official" from the National Council.

Good "amateur" advice ( in the good sense) from all involved except from Calico Penn who is a pro in this area and has very appropriately refrained from giving specific advice. I might suggest finding out if your council has a meaningful Health and Safety Committee and, if so, finding out if they have a psychologist/psychiatrist as a member or on call. This could give you some local professional guidance. Rick (Kudu), I know that we have on occasion had significant disagreements on the best approach for Scouting and the best alternatives. I have tremendous respect for what you accomplish in your unit, in recruiting, etc. I would respectfully say here that this is not the time nor the appropriate venue to push aggressively what you believe is the best way to aid youth in the context of Scouting. Perhaps "hard" outdoor old school Scouting will be the very best thing for this boy. Perhaps the Scholarship merit badge approach is the best thing. Perhaps either will work or perhaps neither. But I would not pretend to be able to say from a few paragraphs on a message board. That judgement needs to be made by the people on the spot hopefully with professional guidance. And as Russ (Calico Penn) has said, "DO understand for your own benefit that you cannot be everywhere and that if he does attempt suicide again, even if under the Unit's watch - it is NOT your fault - and nothing you could have done would prevent it (no "if only I" remonstrations allowed). " In a case like this, you do your best and there is a substantial chance that the results will not be happy. This is, if you will, emotional and psychological CPR and just like cardiac CPR, it doesn't always work.