NeilLup

Congratulations to you both. I was very honored a few years ago when my cousin named me as the person most influential in her receiving her Girl Scout Gold Award.

Respectfully disagree, John. The shortest path is to loan the boy a shirt. The path of greatest uproar is probably to eppeal. An intermediate path is to charter the Venture Patrol as a Venturing Crew. Or else have the boy coregister with some other Venturing Crew. Ideally, the Venturing Crew in question would specialize in clowning around and their uniform would be a clown suit. So the boy shows up in a clown suit.

Congratulations to you and your son.

My favorite gift for Eagle Scouts is a $25 gift certificate to www.kiva.org. Kiva makes microeconomic loans to small entrepreneurs in 3rd world countries, each about $500- $1000. Each opportunity is listed and the Scout can select the entrepreneur that he wishes. When enough "loaners" allocate money to that entrepreneur, he or she gets their money. When the entrepreneur pays the money back, normally taking about 6-12 months, the Scout can either withdraw the money or else reloan it. I am on my 3rd consecutive loan. The first two paid it back right on time.

Hello sheldonsmom, I don't know about your council, but mine has the policy that no one will be denied the opportunity to do Wood Badge because of finances. We have a number of ways of raising scholarship money and we pursue those ways aggressively. Have you or your husband told your council training group that finances are a problem. Having said that, I have had people who "needed" a scholarship show up in a fancy car or chain smoke during the course and felt a bit like a fool for the effort that I had put into raising scholarship money. Still, I believe they were better Scouters for having been to WB. As far as some of the comments made, there is a saying in BSA training that if you send a monkey to training, you get back a trained monkey. The same thing applies to Wood Badge. Just going to any training will not make one a better leader; one needs to comprehend, appreciate and use the training. And yet, in some cases, Wood Badge groups can be arrogant and exclusionary. That is regrettable.

Hello Eagle92, You are correct, of course. The key phrase in your post is "pending national's approval." With the approval of the National council, an extension for any reason for any length of time is possible. But that's about like saying that "with the approval of the IRS, you don't have to pay your income tax." I don't want to to concern mdsummer, so I want to phrase my post carefully. Those of us who do have some advancement experience have been saying that with the situation as presented by mdsummer, it is exceedingly likely that her son will be approved for his Eagle Scout at the local council level. If, for some reason, the local council does not approve, then I believe that, with the situation as presented, it is very, very likely that an appeal would be approved by the National Council. One of the elements of that situation is that the Scout has, prior to his 18th birthday, repeatedly asked for a Scoutmaster's Conference and the SM has refused to give one. I believe that the written Eagle Scout advancement guidelines specifically state that the Scoutmaster may not refuse to give a Scoutmaster's Conference as a means to block Eagle Scout advancement, so this refusal is specifically appealable. A similar circumstance occurs with a failure to hold a Board of Review. That is specifically appealable. Note that the requirements for Eagle Scout do not state that the Scout has to "pass" the Scoutmaster's Conference, merely to participate in one. If I were on the appeal board, I would state that, in my opinion, the Scout asking for the Scoutmaster's Conference and the SM refusing giving character based reasons qualified as participating in a Scoutmaster's Conference and move on to the next item. When one moves off this and a few other well beaten tracks in Eagle Scout advancement such as a Troop having a percentage participation requirement to be considered "active" getting extensions from the National Council can be very difficult. The attitude of the National Council has been that the Eagle Scout requirements have been there since the boy became a Scout. If he is well in advance of his 18th birthday the matter can be corrected. If the boy is right at his 18th birthday, that is his choice and his responsibility. The fact that matters might be beyond his control now do not change the fact that he chose to wait until right before his 18th birthday to complete the requirements. He did not choose to give himself time to correct problems and he must bear the consequences of that choice. Extensions are granted, but they are exceedingly rare representing only a handful each year. A larger number of requests for extension are turned down. An exception to this occurs when the Scout is mentally or physically handicapped. There is a well established procedure for extensions for such Scouts and those extensions are granted. So we may be wrong, but I believe that mdsummer and son will make out just fine. But another Scout with other facts anticipating an extension may well be sorely disappointed.

At the risk of bringing on severe flames, as I understand your situation, it is the following: 1) Your son, in April, submitted his Eagle application 2) The District has some procedures which it requires and is asking that your son and you follow these procedures. They sound a bit strict but probably not beyond the pale, particularly if they are giving guidance on how to comply with these procedures 3) The whole reason for this problem and your anger is that your daughter is moving out of state and June and you want her to be able to attend the Court of Honor. So you want the Eagle application to be processed, the Board of Review held, the application then processed by your local council, sent to the National Council, approved by the National Council, Court of Honor planned and scheduled, etc. by June. Is there some reason why, if necessary, your daughter cannot return from wherever she is going to attend the Court of Honor? I know that money can be tight but we recently purchased airline tickets from Boston to San Francisco for less thatn $200. There is a saying I have heard which is "Your failure to plan ahead does not create an emergency for me." I am sure that your District and Council officials will do everything they reasonably can, but to anticipate that they will cut corners on procedures and move heaven and earth on timing just so that you can be spared the expense and trouble of having your daughter return for the Court of Honor could well be considered a bit much. Besides that, she will presumably be returning for other reasons at some time in the near future and the Court of Honor could be held at that time. Your son's time as an Eagle Scout begins from the date of his Board of Review. So for eligibility for Eagle Scout Scholarships, Eagle Palms, etc. The Court of Honor date is of no particular significance. I know of Scouts who have had their Court of Honor many months after the Board of Review at times because of relatives in the military, etc. No particular permission or approval is required for such a delay or even not to have a Court of Honor at all. When I look at matters from the point of view of your District/Council officials, I believe that I can see another side.

Hello Sharpy, You've gotten some good advice. Thank you for doing your part to create a good Cub Pack. A few thoughts: 1) You need to get to know some of the District volunteer leadership in addition to your professional District Executive. If you have a Unit Commissioner, contact him or her and get them involved. If not, and probably even if you do, the suggestion of going to a Roundtable or two is excellent. Try to meet the Roundtable Commissioner and the District Commissioner. If the District Commissioner is not there, get his or her name and phone number and give him or her a call. Don't complain, just indicate that you are getting this Pack restarted and would like some help and a friendly person to talk with and get guidance from. Maybe you need to get to know your District Training Chairman too. 2) I hesitate to suggest this as it may open a big can of worms. I have heard, but personally have never done it, that it is possible to have two chartered organizations for one unit. This would mean that you could have both the church and the VFW as your sponsors. This would likely require the cooperation of your District and Council and you may not get that. 3) Important point here. The swamp that you started out to drain is creating a great Cub Scout Pack. It is not taking possession of the Scout House, fixing it up, etc. If, for example, your church would provide a good meeting place, you would not need to meet at the Scout House and you could concentrate on your Pack. I believe that the BSA now recommends against property like your Scout House specifically because of problems like the ones you are observing. 4) Your DE is out of line but I have a bit of sympathy for him. In my council, we have some units with treasuries with mid five figure war chests who maybe give $100 per year to the council and then demand all kinds of service. But that's not your situation. As I read matters, you did not ask for donations, you were offered them. Do not in any way feel you are acting inappropriately or in an "unScouting" way by accepting these donations. 5) Cub Scouting is supposed to be fun for the adults as well as for the youth. Don't let this administrivia and other such stuff keep you from the fun. It is not wrong for you to bring your DE up short by saying "Listen, I'm trying to get this Cub Pack going. I'm also trying to learn what Scouting is about and what Scouting people believe in. I'm not enjoying myself and I don't like what I'm having to do and what I'm seeing. Do you really want a strong Cub Scout Pack here or not?" Do good things for kids. Have fun. Everything else is fluff and means to the end.

Your DC is more than correct. The EBOR can be held up to 3 months after the 18th birthday with no special permission needed. With that permission, which is easy to obtain for a good reason, an additional 3 months (for a total of 6 months) is almost automatic and I have heard of a case where, for very good reason, an Eagle Board of Review was held 60 YEARS after the person turned 18.

Hello mdsummer, It sounds as if your District is moving with all reasonable speed. People do get sick and go to the hospital. People do have real jobs and some have lives outside of Scouting, even your District Director. Your son will not be penalized if these situations cause his Eagle circumstances to be resolved after his 18th birthday.

With appropriate respect to Gern and others, I sometimes think that if some of the members of this forum were given gold bars, they'd complain that they were too heavy. We have for 15 web pages been appropriately complaining that the Troop is stone walling and being contrary to the principles of Scouting. Now the District Advancement Chairman is moving expeditiously and we're complaining that he is making thing too easy. How does one win? I suspect that if the DAC is on the ball, and it sounds as if he is, he already has plenty of information on the situation, has formed a reasonable opinion and now wants to move forward with all deliberate speed. Training on Eagle Boards of Review suggest that they're supposed to take a half-hour. They not supposed to be an inquisition or exhaustive review of everything the Scout has done. I suspect that the DAC is already taking into account what the Scout has gone through.

Hello mdsummer, It sounds as if things are proceeding, sadly, as expected. I don't have a problem with the 11:45PM e-mail. You and your son requested a timely response and you got one. You now have plenty of time to proceed. I wouldn't necessarily say in the appeal letter that your son "deserves" to be an Eagle Scout. Rather, I would say that he believes that he has "met the requirements." That is the criterion that a Board of Review is supposed to use. When the time comes for the appeal board, if questions are asked about the SM Conference, your son can point out that he many times asked for the conference and the SM refused to give it. Similarly with the Board of Review. It doesn't really matter a lot what the exact words of the appeal letter are. If the District Advancement Chairman is experienced, he or she knows the drill. Appeals do happen and probably more frequently than one would like. I completely agree with Beavah that the important thing at this point is to be very polite and respectful to the members of the appeal and to look and act like an Eagle Scout in all of the dealings with the DAC and the appeal board. I might have your son go before a mock appeal board to be prepared. Normally, I don't recommend practice boards, but this is a bit different. The main thing will to be prepared to answer questions about his dealings with the Troop and with the SM. There might be some practice questions like "Why do you think that the SM is so negative on your Eagle?" or "Is there something you have done that would cause the SM to think that you don't deserve to be an Eagle Scout?" His answers ideally will not be defensive or be oily or slimy. He certainly can speak about the things that happened years ago but indicate that he had learned from them and moved beyond them. The facebook page is something he should be prepared to address. I might have a copy of a printout of the Facebook page to show the Board members if they ask or if it seems appropriate unless it really is pretty bad. I won't say don't worry because this kind of thing can be capricious. But I would concentrate now on preparing the best possible case and making it very easy for the appeal board.

Your job is to held the Board of Review to determine if the Scout has met the requirements to be an Eagle Scout, particularly the less quantifiable requirements like Scout Spirit and Leadership. It is particularly helpful if you come up with specific examples of when you saw the Scout demonstrate one of the points of the Law or of the Scout Oath or when he showed leadership. It does no harm is your letter doesn't contain tangible examples, but it is less helpful. You are trying to give the Board of Review examples of what they would have seen if they were there.

Hello Lisabob and others, Let's not pillory the kid because we agree or disagree with what the father has written. Let's take as a given that the boy does say "I want to join the Boy Scouts so I can be an Eagle Scout." Wow, that's fantastic! That says we've done a great job of branding, etc. I'd a whole lot more want that than "I don't want to be in Boy Scouts but my parents are making me do that." or "I want to get to start fires" or whatever. Either he'll learn what being an Eagle Scout is, like it and do is or else he won't like it and will do somethign else. Either way, we had him for awhile. If what Daddy-O is writing is accurate, and I'm sure it is, then Daddy-O won't be one of those "no wings no wheels" parents we rail about. Daddy-O will say that being an Eagle Scout is son's business. If he likes it, Daddy-O will support. If he decides he doesn't like it, Daddy-O won't put on pressure. Maybe I'm missing something but those sound like pretty good conditions for an entering Boy Scout.

Daddy-O There is, to my knowledge, no such list. Advancement is tracked at the unit, district and council level but that is total advancement. Most of us would consider it as important that a young Scout earn his Tenderfoot Scout badge as that an older Scout earn the Eagle Scout award. If your council has an Eagle Scout recognition dinner, you can ask to see the list of invitees and that should tell you which units are producing a substantial number of Eagle Scouts. There is, of course, anecdotal information. If you contact volunteer leaders in your local area, you likely can get guidance on which Troops are considered to do a particularly noteworthy job of advancement and of having its members earn the Eagle award. Not everybody giving you that information will consider it a plus but that's for you to evaluate. Your local District Executive (professional Scouter) should be able to help you find such a Troop also.

Your post can be easily explained, OGE. An eagle is a raptor and kills to eat. One can only imagine the effect on one's character of a life of continuous killing. Grey is totally devoid of color -- tedious, humdrum, boring And old -- well at best, that's obsolete and over the hill and at worst demented and senescent. Oh dear. I just described myself too.

Hello Daddy-O, Not to be pugnacious but if your son had asthma that had no effect on his lifestyle except that he could not play ball and otherwise exercise vigorously, would you withhold and not "ramp up the medications" so as to not put exogenous substances in the body? Not saying that you should or shouldn't. Just trying to suggest another perspective.

Hello Fugitive, Came late to this thread. 1) Absent medical reasons or exceedingly extenuating circumstances far beyond the control of the Scout, recommend that you and the Scout not count on an extension of time to complete requirements beyond age 18. And if there are such circumstances, particularly medical, the procedure for initiating extension should have begun LONG before the 18th birthday. By and large, if the Scout hasn't completed his Eagle Scout requirements by age 18, he's out of luck and will not be an Eagle Scout. 2) Obtaining waivers to hold the Board of Review after 3 months is easier with good reason. That's pretty straightforward. But if he's on an extension to complete requirements, why then push farther in putting in the application, holding the BOR, etc. 3) Not sure why you are stringing out these what ifs. If Scout already has an extension for medical reasons, I'm not sure that would have contained a time limit. But why push the back end of the time period. Get things done early. 4) The basic attitude of the National Advancement group is that the requirements have been out there for the entire time that the boy has been a Scout and he has has seven years to complete them. If he's pushing his 18th birthday, that's his responsibility and not the responsibility of the unit, district, council or National council. As I've heard elsewhere "Your failure to plan ahead does not create an emergency for me." 5) A significant fraction of Scouts in these situations do not become Eagle Scouts. Perhaps sad, but it was their choice to wait until the last minute.

Hello mdsummer, Thank you for your apology. Not necessary. I am very hard to offend. I am very reluctant to use credentials as I believe that each post should stand on its own merits regardless of the status or lack of same of the poster. Suffice it to say that I have served on more than one review board for Eagle Scout and more than one appeal board. If your son is polite, respectful and knowledgeable, the odds are extremely high that he will get his Eagle. Even if not, if he has met the requirements, the odds are high that he will get his Eagle. It is certainly possible that he will run afoul of the age 18 requirement but with the paper trail you have, very unlikely. What is now necessary, from what you have written, is for him to convince the Board that today, he has met the Eagle requirements. Perhaps in the past there were behavior issues. He's not the first candidate with those. Felons and teenage fathers have earned the Eagle Scout award. But it becomes much easier for the Board if he can present the attitude "That is what I was then. I've learned from that and this is what I am now" and his bearing, demeanor, etc. communicate that. Even if not, the Board will do their best, but if he makes it easy for them, then it's easy for them. And I'm sure that he did thank the Board members at the meeting. That's what he's expected to do. Sending a thank you note would be exceptional and noteworthy. And isn't being exceptional and noteworthy what we expect Eagle Scouts to be? That was the point of my earlier post. You and he did nothing wrong by not sending any such note, etc. But my suggestion was to make him exceptional and to make the job of the Board in approving him easier. His character has been questioned. Anything he can do to address that question can, I believe, only be a plus.

Hello Mdsummer45, Please feel free to accept or disregard my counsel (or anyone else's) as you see fit. I believe and hope that I and everyone else on this board have only the best interests of youth in mind.

I started this post several times. I hope that it is now appropriately balanced and non emotional. Good grief! The CC's MOTHER IS DYING and you have a problem with him thinking that takes priority over your son's Eagle Board of Review. I know that if I were that CC and I related that circumstance to my wife, she would ask me "Why do you bother with these people? They think only of themselves." I haven't seen anything in your update which would lead me to think that the committee is acting in any way other than proper. They have a tough decision to make. It most likely looks to them that the SM has it in for your son and so they likely want to support your son. However, in doing that, they will be repudiating the SM who is their leader chosen to lead the Troop. Perhaps the SM will resign if they do that. Under any circumstances, repudiating the SM will weaken his position and cause severe friction between the committee and the SM. Tough situation. Not something done in 15 minutes particularly when the information sitting in front of them is of the "he said, she said" variety and, to an outsider, that's how it looks. Because it is "he said, she said", your son has two challenges: establishing his credibility and then passing the Eagle Board. Among the standards the Eagle Board will use are Kind and Courteous. Let's say that the committee decision goes against you and the matter then goes to the Scout Executive or to an appeal board at the council. They call in the CC among others and he said "We held the review on the night that my mother was dying. I explained that but mdsummer45 and her son didn't seem to care. All they wanted was a decision that night." You and he will correctly be deemed as having very poor understanding of the Oath and Law. I would suggest a different approach. 1) If not already done, I would IMMEDIATELY have your son write a thank you note individually to each person who was there thanking them for their consideration and asking them to approve his application. Send a respectful note to the SM too thanking him for coming to the meeting. Ideally that would be in today's mail for delivery Saturday. Failing that, in Saturday's mail for delivery Monday. If you have their e-mail addresses, that's even better. The key point is to demonstrate courtesy and consideration and to help your son's credibility. In the note to the CC, express appropriate sympathy and, if your son finds appropriate, ask if there is anything he can do for the CC. 2) Contact the DD if you wish. Ask whether, in the absence of a decision last night, it is appropriate for your son to put in an appeal in order to preserve rights prior to 18th birthday. I believe that, if you do anything of this sort, I would rather put in a "notice of intent to appeal" stating that he hopes the decision of the committee will be favorable but if not, your son wants to be on record prior to his 18th birthday that he believes he has met the requirements to be an Eagle Scout and will appeal to obtain an appropriate hearing. 3) Be considerate to the CC. Find out, if you can, the status of his mother. If there isn't a dire situation, Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, have your son contact him to find out what decision, if any, has been made. If a decision, you know how to act. If no decision, make sure that the CC knows things need to be done prior to the 18th birthday. Ask then if CC minds being contacted on Friday to obtain the decision. If, on Friday, still no decision, son should ask if CC objects to him putting in a formal appeal of no Board in order to preserve his rights. It sounds as if your son acted in a very courteous and respectful manner and that built credibility. He needs to keep doing that as there may be controversy. But a review board will always listen very respectfully to a courteous and polite Scout. Credibility wil be extremely key if the word of the SM needs to be refuted.

Hello Daddy-O: I put a brief response on another board and was referred to this one. A few thoughts. As others have said, what Scouting is trying to do is different from what the boys see and from what many adults see. We participate in a movement which attempts to improve the citizenship, character and fitness of youth. We use means like youth leadership, ideals, independence, etc. as means to achieve our objectives. It turns out that living in the outdoors is a particularly effective means toward improving and enhancing independence, leadership in youth and to have them have fun doing it. Whether the outdoor emphasis in Scouting was developed as a good means to achieve the objectives or whether the outdoors came first and then the ideals second is not important but we Scouters believe that outdoor living is a great experience and one that strongly reinforces our ideals. But the outdoors is not the only means to accomplish these objectives. You and your son need to decide: 1) Is Scouting, an outdoor oriented organization, one that will help you achieve your objectives of fun, growth, etc. noting that the outdoor orientation can be modified as noted below 2) Will some other organization achieve the objectives better taking into account that you need to modify less of their base program than you would need to for Scouting It's up to you and your son and the decision doesn't need to be irrevocable. If he wishes, let him start and try. Make it very clear that for physical reasons, camping will be difficult if not impossible for him. Let him do his best and if not being able to camp becomes too frustrating or too limiting, he drops out with no hard feeling on anybody's part. That way, you haven't told him he can't do it. One is not a Scouting failure if they don't become an Eagle Scout. A good Scout promises to do his or her best. Physical limitations can strongly impact what "best" is. If your son truly is so severely allergic to mold, and I have no reason to believe you are exaggerating, and it is so diagnosed by an allergist, I believe that he would qualify for a medical waiver for many Scouting advancement requirements. This does NOT mean that he gets a free pass. Rather, he, plus you, plus his Troop, identify activities of equal difficulty and complexity which he can do within his physical limitations. I'm sure that he's not the first boy to have physical challenges which make camping difficult if not impossible. If you do decide that he should join a Troop, keep this alternative in mind.

Hello Daddy-O, I tried to spin off a separate thread but the system won't let me. You say that your son "loves Scouts" but doesn't enjoy the outdoors. You are asking how to find an adult led, advancement Troop. Before trying to give you an appropriately respectful answer, may I ask what it is that you son loves? Maybe we can help you find it.

Hello Eagle 1977, A Wood Badge from Thursday through Saturday does nothing to satisfy the needs of highly observant orthodox Jews who, as I understand matters, cannot do "work" from sundown Friday evening through sundown Saturday PM. Fixing food, putting up camp, etc. I believe counts as work. At one time and possibly currently, the Northeast Region offered what was called the "Religious Observant Wood Badge." It was a week long course but lasted in duration I believe 9 or 10 days since there were no activities from Friday to Saturday to meet the needs of the highly observant Jews and then no activities from Saturday through Sunday to meet the needs of the LDS, Catholics, etc. It also had food to meet the dietary requirements of the Jews, Muslims, etc.

With the idea of providing light rather than heat, I wanted to relate some experiences in trying to provide appropriate religious services for the participants in a Regional Wood Badge Course Director's development conference: 1) We were told that the bishop of one Catholic diocese, which covered an entire state, was totally adamant that everybody in his diocese WOULD attend Mass every Sunday -- no exceptions. There would be no allowances, no waivers, no nothing. So the people in his diocese had little wiggle room. 2) Another year, we had planned to have a priest to say Mass at the conference and, for a very good reason, the priest had to pull out at the last minute. In order to meet the schedule, we told all the participants that we would not be able to provide Mass and that the priest had said this would be OK under the circumstances. One of the participants, from this bishop's diocese, sat down and started loudly crying --- literally crying. When asked why, he said that it would be the first time in his life that he had not been to Mass on Sunday. What could we do? He went to Mass, consequently so did all the other Catholics and we had to take 2 hours of material out of the course. 3) Another time, a Course Director and Scoutmaster from the diocese of the bishop mentioned in item 1 told about the time that he had taken his Troop out to Montana on a trip. Montana is a LOOOOONG way from this state. He said that they had learned of a church where they planned to attend Mass. However, because of a mixup in schedule, when they showed up at the church, Mass was not there. So they phonecalled and drove over Montana for essentially that entire Sunday trying to find Mass without success. When they got back home, the first question that 3 families separately asked was why the Troop had made their sons miss Mass on Sunday. 4) A Jewish participant had himself appointed Chaplain's Aide for his training patrol. When they got together to plan the Scout's Own service, the suggestion was to sing the hymn "Faith of our Fathers" which was recommended in the course guide. This man vehemently objected saying that it was offensive to Jews because it implied a paternalistic God and if we insisted on singing it, he would walk out and so would all the other Jews. Later, one of the other Jews took us aside and said that the man was speaking only for himself and not for the Jews in the group. My only point is that for some religions and some individuals, as was mentioned above, religion may be a mechanism for a power trip. In some cases, this may not be the choice of the individual but rather the policy or dictum of the leader(s) of a hierarchical church. One cannot satisfy these people unless they get precisely what they want and possibly not even then.