NeilLup

Sometimes it is necessary or desirable to use the past tense to avoid sounding weird and creating a negative image on the part of the listener. (i.e. What does he mean that he IS an Eagle Scout. I thought that was for boys only. Hasn't he grown up?) This can particularly be true if there isn't the opportunity to explain what I mean. In those cases, I say that I earned the Eagle Scout award in the past, or that I earned it in 1959. Your Army guy could say "These men all earned the Eagle Scout award."

Great Thread. I have twice (for a total of 7 years) been Council Commissioner. Most recently, I had responsibility for about 400 units. According to the National 1/3 ratio, this would require at least 133 unit serving Commissioners. On the books when I took over, we had 12 names in four Districts of which 6 were actually doing anything. We were up to 40 Commissioners when my tour of duty ended 4 years later. Big improvement, but far from what we needed to have. The problem was, as outlined in the thread, that there are some great potential Commissioners out there, but they are working in units. We need to find a large number of leaders who want to help Scouting, not just their son or their unit. And we need to keep replacing them as they move, or age out, or get recruited for other Scouting jobs. It's really tough. We had to create a triage system with our 40 Commissioners. We asked where would they make the most impact? It likely wouldn't be the great units -- they don't need a Commissioner. And it likely wouldn't be the weak or dying units -- they are too tough. So it would be the average or slightly below average units. The ones where some help and mentoring and training could really make a difference. The other units we tried to help other ways. This meant, among other things, that the good units keep complaining that they never saw a Commissioner. Yet, I remember one newly recruited Commissioner who was resigining saying that he went to visit his first Troop meeting with a newly assigned Troop. The Scoutmaster had been in place 25 years. And the Scoutmaster dumped on the new Commissioner for 25 years of everything that the Scoutmaster thought that the District, the Council or Scouting had done wrong. The Commissioner told me "I don't need this." I haven't seen a consistently good way to get and retain Commissioners other in those few Districts and Councils where being a Commissioner is the "thing to do." They can have a great time. But how does that get started? I don't know.

In addition to the other problems listed, "Do you believe in God" may be the ultimate puffball Board of Review question. It permits a one word answer and every Scout knows what the "right" answer is -- he knows what he is supposed to say. It doesn't really test anything other than the boy's ability to say "Yessir, yessir, three bags full!" I'll bet, for example, in Ed's Troop that the Scouts know that he is going to ask if they believe in God and they say among themselves. "Mr. Mori will ask if you believe in God. You better say 'Yes.' And then if he wants more, you say that you go to church with your parents and you try to follow the Bible and the Ten Commandments." For a boy who is a member and believer in one of the traditional churches, the question is no problem. But let's say that one of those evil, Godless atheists has snuck into the Troop. He is asked "Do you believe in God." If he's an honest atheist, he has a dilemma. If he is Trustworthy and says no, he is thrown out of Scouting. But if he is not Trustworthy, he says yes and gets to stay. But if he's a dishonest atheist, he says "Sure, I believe in God." and says to himself "and I believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Great Pumpkin too. What a bunch of hooey." So the question is no problem for an atheist who is comfortable lying, only for one who is honest. I don't really see any way that asking "Do you believe in God?" explicitly is to the benefit of the boy. It seems only to the benefit of the adult asking the question. If we are trying to help and benefit all youth, I believe we can do better than that. This is not a matter of dumbing down Scouting or compromising standards. Rather, it is ensuring that the standards really are met and understood and appreciated and worked toward rather than just creating lip service.

Hello Zipple, I might suggest that you need to do nothing at this point. As I understand matters, the odds are that your council already is aware of this prior conviction through a records review and has made the judgement that it is no problem. The review of records has been going on for a fair period of time. The judgement is made by the local council Scout Executive. I once had a SE tell me that it is amazing how many people have minor drug convictions on their records. I would not create a problem until one exists. Your leader has been upfront with the situation, he listed the conviction, your sponsor knows about it, the council has the information and has had it for 3 years. If a problem arises, deal with it then. Until then, you consider the man an outstanding leader and treat him in exactly that way.

Hunt has spoken very well part of my concern. Thank you. Another part is that "God" is a particular Judeo-Christian nomenclature for a supreme being/higher power. It is not surprising that the BSA uses this terminology considering when the BSA was founded and the predominant religions in the USA. But there are other religious which are in the USA and which have many adherents in other parts of the world that either do not believe in a monotheistic "God" or else use some other terminology. The BSA has indicated that participation in these religions or indeed in any bona fide religious belief, satisfies the requirements of the the 12th point of the law. But if you ask one of these people "Do you believe in God?" the answer is no. Finally, many youth are searching for their religious beliefs and for their personal beliefs. If you ask them "Do you believe in God?" they may say to themselves "I'm not sure" but not be comfortable answering with a firm, confident "yes." I believe that our mission is to help those youth by word and by example and not to exclude them nor to make them feel unwelcome or excluded. As far as my own interpretation of the term reverent, if I have the privilege of sharing a campfire with you at some point, or of participating in a Scouts' Own service with you, I'll be happy to discuss my religious beliefs. I don't believe that personal matters like that are really appropriate for a public message board. I am comfortable stating that the second paragraph of the fine print of the 12th point of the Scout Law is important to me. " He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions and beliefs of others in matters of custom and religion."

Hello Ed, With sincere respect, I believe that your question "Do you believe in God?" at the beginning of a Board of Review is much the same as asking "Are you gay?" It is an extremely aggressive and, in my opinion, non friendly way of introducing a topic which can be highly personal to the youth and his family and on which there is significant controversy within society and among Scout leaders. As was mentioned if the boy were Buddhist, or Hindu, or believed in some of the American Indian religions, he would answer "no." Yet there are religious awards for Buddhists and Hindus approved by the BSA. You have written that you have no Buddhists in your unit. Again, with respect, you have no Buddhists that you know about. There may be some boys who are considering alternative religious and who can't even tell their parents. I know that in some parts of the country and in some families if a boy does not loudly proclaim that he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal savior then he is anathema. Yet that does not mean that the boy is not searching. You may be setting up a terrible conflict between "A Scout is Trustworthy" and "A Scout is Reverent." If the boy is questioning religion, particularly privately, and he says what he knows he is supposed to say "Yes, I believe in God." he may feel that he is not telling the truth. Yet if he answers honestly, he may feel that it will get him expelled from Scouting and possibly set up a serious conflict in his family. This is a tremendously difficult situation, particularly if the boy is not particularly articulate as many preadolescent and adolescent boys are not. To be blunt, is the purpose in your question to root out those atheists and make sure that they don't get any foothold in Scouting or is it to help a boy in his spiritual journey and to help him to integrate religion into Scouting and into his life? I have been trained that if it is the latter, asking the question "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" is the preferred way of introducing and discussing the topic. It allows him to say as much or as little as he chooses. It ensures that there is some belief in a higher power but doesn't force the issue. And it is in line with the extremely broad interpretation that the BSA has of "A Scout is Reverent."

Beaver, if you really feel that strongly about this boy, you can write an unsolicited "letter of information" (I prefer that to "letter of non-recommendation") to his Eagle Scout Board of Review documenting your observations. For courtesy, kindness, etc. if I did that, I would copy the boy and his Scoutmaster so there were no surprises. There are "paper" Eagles, just as there are "paper" college graduates, "paper" PhDs, "paper" athletes, "paper" military officers, "paper" clergymen, even "paper" Scoutmasters, etc. We have made holding the Eagle badge such a prize that people want the badge and don't appreciate that it is the journey to get the badge that creates the person. But maybe the appropriate story here for those of us who are Scout leaders is the story of the boy and the many starfish on the shore of the ocean. "I made a difference to this one."

Something that we sometimes forget is that advancement (the Eagle) is only one of the eight methods of Scouting and the Eagle is only a part of advancement. Yet often, as this thread illustrates, we think that the only thing that matters is "Did the boy make Eagle?" or "Should we let the boy make Eagle?" At this point, should the boy make Eagle Scout? With the facts as present, I don't think so but we don't have all the facts. Should he be thrown out of Scouting (and denied the Aims and the other seven methods?) Again, I don't have the facts but I would hope not. And I hope the situation presented to the Scout isn't "We've decided that you are unworthy of Eagle. End of topic." Rather, I would say "You have done some actions that are very unScoutlike. You will need to prove yourself as a Scout before you can be considered a Scout in good standing." If the boy then asks "Can I go for Eagle?" I would suggest that the answer needs to be "That is very far downstream. First, you need to prove that you understand and live by the Scout Oath and Law and then, possibly, other things can be considered."

Check out the web site of the Boston Minuteman Council www.bsaboston.org and look up the 21st Century Pioneer Award. This is a diversity related award which has age specific levels for all youth in Scouting. It is available for anyone and is intended to be fun. ManyIrons, I greatly respect your creativity and initiative but I'm pretty certain that "diversity of interests" is not what is intended in the diversity requirement. Rather, I believe that elements of personal diversity are intended. This certainly does not need to be only race but can be gender, language, ethnicity, national origin, handicaps, etc. The idea is to explore our "comfort zone" and to push beyond it and also to expand Scouting beyond its normal perception as a white, middle class suburban organization.

"As of yet, I haven't seen a MB University or anything like that in our area. The problem we are having, is that MBC's are not returning phone calls that the boys in our troop are making. We have 3 Scouts that are calling to set up appointments to work on Merit Badges, and since before December, not one has had a phone call returned. This is very discouraging to our Scouts. Has anyone else encountered this problem? Any ideas?" In our council, we have an excellent MBU run by Harvard University (written up in Boy's Life In January 2004). They have two rules which make it a lot more palatable in my opinion: 1) They do not offer Eagle required merit badges. In fact, they try to offer the ones that are rarely seen like Oceanography, Journalism, Geology and Indian Lore. It's rather neat to have Chemistry offered by a Nobel Prize winner or American Business offered by a former National Chief of the OA> 2) They hold the MBU on two weekends about a month apart. The Scout comes to the first one, meets the counselor and learns what is needed. They they go home to do the work. If it is completed, they get the MB on the second weekend. Otherwise, they get a partial. As far as MB counselors being hard to reach and not calling back, if this were the old school, I'd say "Welcome to the challenge of becoming an Eagle Scout." That used to be part of the game. You sometimes needed to bug the counselor and, more than once, I had the counselor finally tell me "I've stopped doing that! Stop bothering me." But this isn't the old school The counselors are expected to cater to the Scouts, not the other way around.

The applicability of HIPPA was discussed thoroughly at recent WB Course Director's Development Conferences. The conclusion was that it did not apply because WB is not providing medical treatment for compensation. However, medical forms are still held strictly confidential and the purpose it not to establish preexisting conditions for insurance purposes but rather to enable appropriate accomodations to be made for individuals whose medical situation might impact their Scouting experience. There was also a discussion of a change in medical permission forms in light of HIPPA. At least one example was given where a Scout was injured, taken to an emergency room with properly executed medical forms, treated and then when the SM asked "Well how is he?" the SM was told "We can't tell you. Your permission form authorizes you to obtain treatment and we did that. However, it doesn't authorize you to obtain information on the treatment. At this point, only the boy's parents can get that information." So it was suggested that medical permission forms be modified to contain permission to receive information on HIPPA by unit leaders. Our nurse/medical officer said that in these cases, the ER personnel are likely just being lazy. However, with the modified form, they have no leg to stand on.

As a Scouter who works largely with the district and council, my job is to try to ensure that unit level Scouts and Scouters have a 10+ in their experience. When I see units running well, Scouts happy, participation increasing, etc. Then it's a 10 for me. When I have a leader tell me that the council camp from our adjoining council is wonderful and our council camp sucks and so "their boys" have decided never to go to our council camp; or when I have leaders tell me that all the council wants is money and never does anything for them; or when I have to try to talk a sponsor out of dropping Scouting over national policies or when I attend a meeting where we discuss our $250,000 deficit and how we need to cut staff to balance the budget meaning that some districts will have no DE, then it's a lot less than 10. Still, my job is to let those leaders vent and to try to help raise that money. If I do, then maybe they'll be closer to 10 and will help me get closer to 10 too.

You are old school, Barry. That's neither bad, nor good, just a statement of fact. (BTW, I am old school too.) There was an interesting 60 minutes program recently on the current very young adults and late teenagers who are in a group called "Echo Boomers." Some of their characteristics are: 1) They are used to "new games" where everybody gets a prize just for participating. They expect to be a winner just by participating 2) They are very good team members and are very comfortable in teams. They are not particularly comfortable being stand alone leaders. 3) They are comfortable following orders and doing what they are told. They are not rebellious. 4) They are very good at multitasking. They are comfortable sitting and absorbing information (the Sesame Street experience). The "What do you think" approach of LD Woodbadge is not comfortable for them. There were several other characteristics mentioned too. They mentioned that some of these characteristics are driving employers crazy. They said that the Echo Boomers show up for work and expect to be All Stars the first day (as they always have been) and don't like competition, particularly if the competition has one winner and many non-winners. We can like this or not like it, but it is, to some extent, the characteristics and needs of the youth group we now serve. We can address that incrementally through our unit culture, but if our unit operation is too out of line with their comfort zone, then many will leave and not return for reasons that even they may not be able to verbalize other than "I just didn't like it."

Hello Kwarmack and ScoutLdr, An "Outpost hike" is not part of the 21st Century WB course as outlined in the course guide. I would suggest that if your staff did that, they would appear to be not following the guide. There is an overnight experience, but the degree of hiking involved is intended to be minimal. It is intended that anyone who is approved by their physician to attend WB can go. ScoutLdr, you should not need to worry.

That's a slippery slope that you're on, Uncleguinea when you talk about the religion that a "majority" of people practice. In all seriousness, how big of a majority and over how large of an area? How does one determine the majority religion? How seriously does one need to practice it to be counted? (If 70-80% of people don't go to church, is lassitude the state religion?) Is it the religion of the entire country? The state? The city or town? The local community? If the majority of the country is Christian but in the local community is Jewish (certain parts of New York) or Islam (certain parts of Michigan) which gets to say what happens? My state is 58% Catholic. Is that enough to say that the Catholics get to say what happens? And particularly interesting, what happens when the majority shifts. Should signs be changed, statues taken down, etc? Reduction ad absurdum, I know, but fairly serious considerations when religion is as important a swing factor as it apparently was in the recent election. I know there was a post in this thread about separation of church and state. I have the feeling that many of the seriously conservative Christians think that separation of church and state is a bad idea when they are in control. There appears to be a lot of movement toward incorporating moral principles of conservative religions more deeply in law although there is a minority which thinks that some of these principles are deeply in error. If everybody practiced religion as is outlined in "A Scout is Reverent", then there would likely be many fewer problems.

Privacy of medical forms is taken extremely seriously at Wood Badge. For our last two courses, the medical officer was a registered nurse who kept and reviewed all medical forms, noted any situations which might cause problems and gave a condensed summary of those to the appropriate people (Course Director, Troop Guide for that person's patrol). She kept all the forms under her control and returned them to the participants when the course was over. Having said that, playing "I've got a secret" about the medical form just isn't a good idea. On one course, a woman showed up demanding to be in the same patrol with her husband or both would go home right away. Turns out she was essentially blind. When we ask where that was on the medical form (sent in early), the answer was "You have no need to know that." The staff tries to create patrols with balance and diversity. One of those factors is the medical situation. The Class 3 medical is required because WB can be physically challenging to some people. You don't need to worry. The WB staff wants medical info only for your benefit.

Nice try, Proud Eagle, but I am very confident that the BSA won't allow that to happen. I believe that the COA for DOD will be grandfathered.

Hello ML2, Again, if it's not too late, I didn't see suggested in any of the posts that if there is a unit Commissioner available, that person may be able to help the leaders, parents and program. Do you have a unit Commissioner? Is that person involved?

Fire story - Campfire at summer camp - Two stone fire lay areas on each side of the main area - rain all week and wood very wet. Person responsible for fire wants to make sure fire starts well. Liberally douses with "Scout water." Later, person responsible for campfire wants to make sure fire starts well. Liberally douses with "Scout water." Later still, Camp Director wants to make sure fire starts well. Liberally douses with "Scout water." Time to light fire. Tremendous WHOOSH and flames shoot 75 feet high. Eyebrows gone on fire lighters. As far as your ASPL, as one of the leaders at the Northeast Region WB Course Director's Conference says, the reason that boys join Scouting is fire and knives. I know that the standards have changed, but if I did as a Scout today some of the things that I did as a Scout, PL and SPL in the 50s and 60s, I'd either be seriously dosed with meds or else be arrested. The nature of boys hasn't changed, just the standards to which they are held. Discuss the matter with the ASPL and find out what he thinks is appropriate. He'll probably be pretty tough on himself. Don't let him be too tough on himself.

Another possibility, if you really want to do it, is that a few years ago, NESA put together a CD of every Eagle Scout. They are listed by council awarding, so you would need to know the council in which the person was a member. (Which can be a challenge with council mergers.) You also would need to find a copy of the CD. One copy went to every council.

Fascinating thread. However, by way of information, in 1972 when the "Improved Scout Program" was introduced, the titles of "Tenderfoot Scout" through "Eagle Scout" was changed from "rank" to "Progress Award." There were many reasons. I believe the title was changed back in 1988. As best I have seen, Eagle Scout is A rank An award A goal A challenge A standard A record of accomplishment etc.etc.etc.

FuzzyBear comments: "Let's say the Scout is asked to tie the bowline at a BOR. He fails to tie it correctly you threaten to fail him but Mom decides to challenge you on grounds that you are adding to the requirements. So you relent." A very interesting question. However, rightly or wrongly, what you have outlined is NOT the function of the Board of Review. Let's say that the Board of Review did retest this knot and the boy did fine. However, they didn't retest a first aid item and that is what the boy doesn't know. Then another scene like the one you outlined occurs. Is it then the job of the BOR to retest every requirement? Answer: IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE BOR TO RETEST. Among other things, the BOR members are Troop Committee members who, presumably, are less knowledgeable on outdoor and other skills than are the SM and the older Scouts. It is the job of the SM, the ASMs and particularly the older Scouts to teach, test and verify skills. If the BOR concludes that a particular Scout needs additional skill instructions, then they give that challenge to the Scout, to the SM, to the Scouts PL, etc. They may suggest to the Scout that he may voluntarily wish to defer his advancement until he has the skill. But they do NOT retest and do not defer advancement because of their judgement that a Scout does not have a particular skill in the face of the older Scouts and the SM saying that he does have this skill. However, they certainly can take the SM to the woodshed afterwards if they conclude that skill instruction and testing is not happening. At least that's how I understand it works.

A bit more on what I understand to be the case with UW. Many UWs do have a fixed amount and donor designation is only for feel good unless the total amount designated to a particular organization is greater than the amount that UW plans to give. Our UW used to be that way. There was such a hue and cry that now they have changed it. Some fraction of the donor designation does go directly to the charity and increases the dollars that the charity gets. But it is not 1 for 1. Also, in most places where UW is no longer contributing to BSA, they still will sent dollars donor designated to BSA to the local council. However, often, they don't make that easy. For example, there is a donor designation number for the local council but it may not be printed with the other charities. You need to find out what it is. If you do, then the local council gets the money less the UW administration share. You need to find out what your local UW is doing and it make some doing to get a straight answer.

Fuzzy, I do like your subtle sense of humor. Training Troupe I'll have to remember that.

Hello Eamonn, Life is interesting, isn't it? I believe that the new course guide is not nationally available. The new course is scheduled to go national next summer and the regional conferences in the fall of 2004 will be part of the roll out. You are a Wood Badge Scoutmaster. You know what is needed. I might be inclined to say that if you had plenty of youth staff and if the youth staff were well trained and prepared, then you might be able to bring it off by overstaffing and conducting some training of staff during the course (essentially splitting the staff into groups and training some while others work.) This would likely require one adult to be the SM and another to coordinate the staff training. In the good old days, Wood Badge was put on with only one staff training--- starting Wednesday before the course started on Saturday. JLT can be done the same way, but it requires a group that wants to put on the course and do a good job; not a group that feels forced or is only going through the motions. Is there someone likely to be JLT director next year? (you?) IF so, it would be wonderful if that person could be with you this year. That person could then learn of your problems and address then next year. No easy answer. That's why you get the big bucks. Have a wonderful holiday.