NeilLup

Hello Vince, The problem you describe is a way of life for us in our council. In addition to the factors you mention, in our schools, we face: 1)Unionized teachers who desire compensation for additional duties like distributing flyers 2)Very strong pressure to do nothing non-academic in schools due to state testing of students 3)A very substantial community sentiment in favor of gay rights Very rarely are we now allowed to make presentations in classrooms. In some schools, we are allowed to distribute flyers. In some others, we are completely unwelcome. Our units have needed to use alternative methods, word of mouth, etc. to recruit. The service projects mentioned will help, particularly if you broadly publicize what you are doing and who you are and how to join. I suspect (I am not sure, of course) that youth sports do not recruit in schools, yet they seem to have no trouble getting sign-ups. How do they do it?

Good stuff! Congratulations to the Scout and to his First Aid instructors. When I was a Scoutmaster and we had First Aid month, I used to tell my Scouts that, considering the size of the Troop, it was almost a certainty that, at some point during their lives, one or more of the boys sitting there would have the opportunity to safe a life. And only two things were almost certain: 1) It would happen suddenly. There would be no warning. 2) There would be no opportunity then to read the book. They would need to have their skills ready at the time. Three years later, we presented a Medal of Merit to one of those Scouts for lifesaving. The correct award, as you have described the circumstances, is the Heroism Award. National loves to give those out. The Scoutmaster needs to contact his Scout Executive or other senior person in his council. Those awards are sufficiently rare that junior professionals have likely not dealt with one. By way of numbers, I believe that last year, there were about 50,000 Eagle Scout awards given. In contrast, the number of Honor Medals, Heroism Awards and Medals of Merit was, I believe, about 300. Ths SM should make contact with the local council immediately as there are some extra procedures to go through if there is a delay in the nomination.

Hello, "Burning" represents the oxidation of a material rapidly to produce a hot plasma. Snow (frozen water) is already fully oxidized and so cannot be oxidized further in an oxygen atmosphere. It will not burn. Water will react in a fluorine atmosphere or, I believe, in an atmosphere of oxygen difluoride. Whether "snow" would "burn" in that atmosphere, I don't know and, quite frankly, I would rather not conduct the experiment to find out. Once upon a time, I was a chemist.

Having my own version of "She who must be obeyed", I understand perfectly. I purchased these from UltraThin Ribbons and Medals Box 7161 Moore OK 73153 Phone 800-758-7265 or 405-794-7892 FAX 800-962-1451 or 405-799-0499 www.ultrathin.com e-mail: info@ultrathin.com I sent them the square knots together with a photo of how I wanted them positioned. They did a great job and it has held up extremely well. I believe that if you have metal devices or pins to go onto the square knots, you can send them too and they will either pin or glue them on.

I am lazy and I try to be thrifty. I hate sewing and I don't do it well. As Eamonn mentioned, square knots used to be discouraged for Wood Badge staff (I understand that changes this year but only 3 rows of knots are allowed.) So to have one set of WB staff uniforms and another set of other uniforms with knots would be expensive and would involve a lot of sewing. I learned of a company that primarily makes magnetic military ribbon bars but also will make square knot sets for Scouters. So for less than the cost of a second set of square knots, I have a magnetic square knot set for my 10 square knots. I put it on any uniform when I wish, it stays clean and is easy to use, remove and store. I rarely wear square knots just because I have felt that too much of a display of knots can be intimidating. I will wear them for Courts of Honor and for other activities where I might want to have a bit of additional credibility. Plus I probably still have a bit of the older WB staff attitude which recommends a "stripped" uniform. As far as WB beads themselves, I was taught "When you put on your shirt, you put on your beads." I wear them whenever I am in uniform. To me, they are a direct handshake with BP and recognition of the great leaders who trained me. Plus they publicize training and encourage other leaders to be trained. There is a custom in the military that a holder of the Medal of Honor rates a salute from any other person in military uniform regardless of their rank. There is no similar custom in Scouting, but Bobalinc or any other wearer of the all red square knot of the Honor Medal for Lifesaving can wear whatever square knots they choose and I wouldn't dream of saying a word.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

Membership Chairman Finance Chairman Commissioner District Chairman Or at least they are the ones that it is hardest to recruit people to do.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

Hello PNW, You are in a very uncomfortable position. I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that when you ask how your liability is removed, it can only be by declining to administer the meds. I would think that you can ask to have the original prescription bottle provided by pharmacy together with a written note signed by both parents directing that the Scout receive the prescription outlined on the original bottle and then your situation would be better. But if one or both parents decline to do this, you are in the same situation as you are if you insist that a parent go on the campout and they refuse. Either you take on the liability or your lose a Scout. You asked who you can talk with. There may be an answer, but I suspect you won't like it. Every Boy Scout council has a legal counsel. You can ask to speak to that person, outline the situation and get the lawyer's advice. But I suspect that the lawyer will only repeat what the Guide to Safe Scouting says. You may have a painfully tough decision to make.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

Hello, The original question was "Has anyone else had to deal with this?" It's a lot more fun, I guess, to talk about BSA policies and agreement or disagreement with them. But to the original question, as Council Commissioner and as Council VP, the answer for me was "Yes, far more than I expected or than I would like." The sponsors who wanted to terminate sponsorship were, by and large, schools and other governmental organizations and "welcoming" churches. The reason was that, rightly or wrongly, sponsoring a BSA unit was perceived as created and/or continuing an affiliation with an organization which had very prominently taken a position perceived as anti-gay. These organizations did not want to continue this association. They acknowledged the benefit of Scouting and often said that they wished that Scouting had not taken the position they had on gays. There were other objections relating to atheists, girls, etc. but, in our community at that time, the big problem was the policy on gays. Sometimes we were able to retain the unit. But sometime, a change of sponsor was needed, as in the case of one 85 year Boy Scout Troop. We never had a terminating sponsor become ugly about this and there always was plenty of warning and plenty of cooperation in finding a new sponsor. I also ran across this in attempting to recruit a District Chairman. The candidate said "In my community, becoming a Boy Scout leader is perceived as publicly taking a position in opposition to gay rights. I am not willing to take that position at this time." We talked about avowed homosexuals and about the inappropriateness of discussion of sex when children are present. But the person just reiterated that it doesn't matter to him what the Boy Scouts say their position is, what matters to him as a potential member and as a leader in his community is the way that the BSA is perceived.

To counteract, somewhat, the words of BW, you might be interested that my beads have been presented several times in the 35 years since I first got them (scary thought). When National supply didn't come through and a presentation was scheduled, we came up with beads, neckerchief and woggle. There is no National approval of Wood Badge completion. The approval is at the local council.

Hello Trail Pounder, Why is an appeal needed? The boy has not, as you have described matters, been rejected for Eagle Scout. Did the boy's Scoutmaster refuse to give him a Scoutmaster Conference? He needs to meet with the Board of Review. The Board may decide to do an unusual thing and go into recess to obtain more information, particularly about the project. But the Board has the authority to decide that the project was completed in spite of what this one woman has to say. However, as Fuzzy Bear said, there are two sides to every story. Maybe this woman just has a bone to pick. Maybe there is something else. In case of doubt, the judgement should to go the benefit of the Scout. I would also suggest that the Scout do as thorough a job as possible of documenting his project with many photos if possible, presuming that he can still get access.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

Don't forget that you have completed all the requirements for Wood Badge. That training will help you not only with your Den but also with aspects of your "civilian" life. It's a great experience and I hope you will consider it.

The first thing to do is to look in the mirror and say: "I have not failed. It is not MY Eagle. It is his Eagle. If this boy decides not to get his Eagle, I HAVE NOT FAILED." The second thing to do is to look at the Scout from a distance and say: "He has not failed. He is a Life Scout. He has earned many merit badges, been a leader and have great experiences. He has benefitted from Scouting. HE HAS NOT FAILED." Then if you want to have a gentle conversation with the boy, communicate how much the Troop has enjoyed having him as a member. Say that he has been a great Scout. Say that you would hope that he would complete his Eagle but it is up to him. Say that if he thinks his current project is too hard, he can certainly create and propose another project which is less hard, provided that it meets Eagle Scout project standards. And say that whether or not he continues on and makes Eagle Scout, he is welcome in the Troop. Then, I would suggest asking him about once more in November. Indicate that if he is going to finish, he probably should start about then. BTW, and this is not directed personally to you, I loathe the concept of "Eagle Advisors" in Troops. Eagle Scout is supposed to be hard, requiring not just the merit badges, leadership and project but also a fair amount of personal initiative to get over the lumps and bumps of the process. The idea of an adult whose job is to goose, cajole, and harry Scouts to make Eagle and smooth over those lumps and bumps is, in my opinion, very contrary to the concept of the Eagle trail. Does your Troop have a "Tenderfoot Advisor" or a "First Class Scout Advisor?" If not, why not. Those are the important ranks. But, if I may suggest it, the most important thing is to put into place and believe the following: LIFE SCOUT IS NOT A FAILURE!!

With respect, your quote is simply wrong and if I heard it at a public gathering, I would take objection to it. It is not as poetic, but The purpose of Cub Scouting is to build citizenship, character and fitness in boys age 6 through 10 The purpose of Boy Scouting is to build citizenship, character and fitness in boys 10 through 17 If a boy has a good experience in Cub Scouting but doesn't go on to Boy Scouting, that is not an incomplete experience. Cub Scouting is a stand alone program which does very good things for boys at the age level for which it is targeted. Please don't put Cub Scouting down. It is unfortunate that he will not have the additional benefits of Boy Scouting, but he has plenty of benefit. How would your quoter respond to: "The purpose of Cub Scouting is to build Boy Scouts. The purpose of Boy Scouting is to build Venturers The purpose of Venturing is to build young men and women?"

Hello Trail Pounder, Congratulations and thanks on completing your ticket. Not to be serious, but, if my memory is correct, the Sea Scout uniform is the one uniform on which Wood Badge beads are not worn. The reason is that it is deemed unsafe to have a leather lanyard tight around one's neck when working on a ship. Sea Scouters are, of course, totally welcome to do Wood Badge. There was once a suggestion of a Wood Badge square knot for Sea Scouters, but that was never approved. I would imagine that might not apply for a passenger on a ship, but I thought the information might be interesting to you. If things get delayed, be sure that your Course Director knows you submitted your ticket.

I believe that there is a complete roster of all Vigil Honor members maintained by the National office. I suggest you contact the Boy Scout Division in Irving Texas.

BW is certainly correct. There is another path. More difficult for you, but one that unquestionably will be upheld by the BSA. The one person who can always defer the advancement of a Scout is the Scout himself. Let's say that you had a Scoutmaster's Conference with questions like "What does it mean to you to be an Eagle Scout? How should an Eagle Scout act and behave? Who are some Scouts that you respect? Why?" Then you might move to "Let's say that you heard that someone who, with the past few months, had done the following things." and list some of his undesirable activities. How would you feel about that person? What would that say about Scouting and about the Eagle Scout award? Would it bring honor to the person and to the Eagle Scout award? Then, move to "Do you really think that you have met all the requirements including Scout Spirit to become an Eagle Scout now? Would you rather lay out a course of action to increase your respect and increase your performance and remove any question that you deserve to be an Eagle Scout?" Done right, this Scout will voluntarily lay out this course of action and will voluntarily defer his advancement. YOu probably want to talk with parents first to make sure that they support your action and that there isn't some type of "No wings, no wheels" edict or else "Get your Eagle so you can drop Scouting and go on to other things for your college application." It can be very tricky to counsel this type of action. But that's why you, as SM, get paid the big bucks.

Hello, Having been a young SM (24), I can emphasize with your situation. Also, I was an AF 1st Lt. and the CC was a Chief Master Sergeant which added another challenge. I would suggest that you attempt to recruit (if you don't hve them already) a couple of respected parents as active committee members and supporters. It is no criticism of you, but there is simply no way that, not having been a parent, you can have total credibility with some of the parents in the Troop. They will do their best and you will do your best, but sometimes, another parent needs to take someone aside and say "Look, I've been there. Here is how things are." Somewhat similarly, you are CC. If you act too much as ASM, then it may confuse the CC role. If you really like being ASM, then perhaps one of your primary goals might be to identify and recruit someone else to take over as CC. But, in the meantime, you are CC. You have the responsibility and the authority. You can and should made decisions. But government in a Scout unit only works with the consent of the governed and you may need to work a bit extra hard to prove your maturity and ability to understand what parents want and thencreate a unit that does what the parents want. It certainly is doable. And it is a great personal growth challenge. BTW, If you haven't gone to 21st Century Wood Badge, I suggest you do so at the earliest opportunity. There will be specific skills taught which will directly help you.

Hello Trevorum, In terms of alternative and less mainstream religions, the Chaplain's Aide on our last Wood Badge course is Wiccan. The Scouts Own he wrote and put on was very meaningful. He is totally welcome in Scouting. And to head off any inappropriate comments, yesterday, he was awarded the Army Commendation Medal with Bronze "V" for Valor for bravery in action in Iraq. He is in the National Guard and left for Iraq right after the course. His tour of duty is about 3/4 over.

Oh my, Eamonn, bite your tongue. I would regard a Blue and Gold banquet as arguably the most formal Cub Scout occasion in the life of a Pack. And, if I were invited, I certainly would consider formal Scouting wear. I'll bet that the Cub Scouts consider it formal and it is, after all, done for them. And I'll bet that they are turned on by seeing the medals that adults have earned which they, someday, might earn. cub Scouts like uniforms and Cub Scouts like medals.

Hello KsScoutMom, It is great that your son is having such a good time in Scouting. Good for you and good for him. Is what happened this summer a fluke? I believe so. Is there some risk in adventure activities? Yes there is. Should you make sure that your son's Troop is using reasonable safety precautions? Yes you can and arguably, you should. Should you sign on as the Health and Safety Chairman for your son's Troop? Your call, but if someone does that job, everything is safer. And for that, you don't need to go mountain climbing. Is there some risk in Scouting. There is. However, in over 50 years, I have never been personally involved with a fatality or even with a serious injury. I have seen statistics that suggest that the most dangerous part of a campout is driving to and from the campout. I would also suggest that other youth activities like sports have injuries too and even deaths. As far as BTK, I believe he was a Cub Scout leader, but I don't believe there was ever a suggestion that any of his nefarious activities had any thing connected to Scouting. He was also a church leader. Does that mean that one should stay away from church? I do know that the BSA is scrupulously careful about its leaders and its youth protection program is considered a model. Is it perfect? No. But it is, I believe, better than anything else out there. I imagine that it is tremendously difficult for a single mother, particularly if this is your only son, to see him go off independently and do things risky. Scouting has a wonderful record of producing strong, independent, high quality people. There is some small risk, as there always is some risk for real reward. But Scouting has by far the most favorable reward/risk ratio of any youth organization I have ever seen. That's why I've stayed with it.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

A suggestion for a couple of the Troop situations mentioned. Have you involved your Unit Commissioner if you have one? Addressing situations like this is one of the things that the UC is supposed to be trained to do. Of course, addressing the "His Majesty" type Scoutmaster is something that no one, not a Commissioner, DE or any other person can do well. As far as the boy turned down for 2nd class, most unfortunate. As other leaders have suggested, contact the District Advancement Chairman or else your Commissioner. The one good thing is that there is no tenure requirement for First Class. The boy can just keep working toward First Class requirements. If the boy is done, there is no reason not to have Second Class and First Class BOR on the same evening. (I know, I know, Scoutmaster's Conference required. However, that does NOT need to happen after the 2nd class BOR. Also, I know if Troops which had the boy pass 2nd class early in the BOR, then go out and have the 1st Class Scoutmaster's Conference, then go back in for his First Class BOR.)

Actually, I can give some information here as I was on the Task Force which developed the 11th edition. 1) One of our most important concerns was the binding. We looked at a large number of potential bindings to come up with one which would lay flat, be durable and not cost an insane sum. The one we have was the best alternative available, but if someone can suggest a better binding which can survive 2 years of 11 year old boy wear, I am sure the BSA would happy to learn about it, if the cost is reasonable. BTW, we estimated that if the current BSA handbook were priced at retail for similar documents, it would cost at least $19.95. The BSA substantially subsidizes the cost of the Handbook 2) We intentionally did not include animals, trees, etc. for several reasons. First is that there are excellent manuals offered by other organizations which provide the exact same information. We would only be duplicating it at high cost. Second is the advice we received from nature experts that national books, particularly for trees and plants can be very misleading. There are a number of plants which look almost identical and differ only in the geographical range in which they are found. The advice was that if someone wanted to become knowledgeable in plants and animals, they should obtain a good local book. It would work much better and be much less frustrating. I suspect that is particularly true now with web availability. The third reason, again, was cost. We wanted the graphics to be superb and graphics for plants and animals would have been very costly raising the cost of the book 3) Requirements - The estimated life of the Handbook is 5-10 years before a major revision. If the requirements for all Merit Badges, etc were included, it would obsolete the book much faster and then there would be the complaining about needing to buy new books. 4) Writing it as a novel - We tried to put in as much romance as possible. There was the balance of romance and information 5) Other items - There was elaborate discussion on whether all photos should have the boys in full uniform or whether outdoor shots should show outdoor wear. We decided to picture realistically what boys and Troops do. 6) Which book is liked better - We did focus groups; honest focus groups. The current edition was strongly preferred. 7) Who is targeted audience - We concluded that a reasonable size and cost book could not cover brand new Scout to Eagle; there is too much of an interest range and age range. So we targeted new boy to First Class Scout. There is some info for older boys, but that isn't the primary targeted audience 8) Who developed it - A task force mainly of volunteers but some pros Is it perfect? Of course not. But I think that we did our best. I would suggest that if there are changes or corrections you think should be made in the handbook or in another major revision, contact the Boy Scout Division in Irving Texas. They very much want those comments. I know of changes made in the book and in requirements because of one letter from a unit level leader.

Greying Beaver is, I believe, mostly right on the mark. There are a few places where my understanding is a bit different but, as I am not a member of the LDS church, I will leave it to someone who is to give that completely accurate information. But as far as PLs and the SPLs, LDS units do not, I understand, have elections like other units. Rather, the Boy Scout unit is an official part of the youth program of the church and leaders are selected as all LDS leaders are -- they are "chosen by God" and sustained by the people they will lead. God, in this case, I suspect, acts through the person of the Scoutmaster and the youth group leadership of the local ward (church). The LDS church believes that this is training their boys to be leaders and to be led just as they will as LDS church members all their life and, for this reason, in addition to others, the BSA finds this totally acceptable. Participation in the Scout units is part of the priesthood training in the LDS church. Until relatively recently, African-Americans were considered by the LDS church to bear the mark of Cain and were not eligible for certain levels of the priesthood. I would suspect that, for these reasons, it would have been considered inappropriate for African-American boys to be PLs and SPLs in training for those levels of the priesthood when they was ineligible because of race. It was not a matter that they could not be elected because there was no election. Rather, the selection was a "choice by God" and God would not have made that choice. Sometime ago (1970s or 1980s, I believe) the Prophet in Salt Lake City had a revelation and African-Americans were eligible to become full members and fully participate in the priesthood. Again, if I have said something incorrect, I hope that I will be corrected.

Hello Seattle, Your District Commissioner's meeting is one key answer. As Council Commissioner, we had a meeting every month to review Commissioner activities and the first item was always recruiting and membership. We held trainings on how to recruit Commissioners and a yearly Commissioner's Conference. Adjoining councils held Colleges of Commissioner Science and encouraged attendance there. I was always on the lookout for potential Commissioners and considered it to be part of my job to recommend potential Commissioners to the District Commissioners. My professional counterpart, the Director of Field Services (who was just promoted to Scout Executive in another council, really good guy) and I discussed Commissioner a lot. He helped by encouraging the DEs and DDs to recruit Commissioners. We tried to ensure that there was always a backup candidate for District Commissioner. One of the more serious problems occurs when a DC slot goes vacant for a period of time. You can lose a lot of momentum. We recognized Commissioners a lot with the Arrowhead Honor, the Scouter Training Award, the Commissioner's Key and the Distinguished Commissioner Award. I made sure that Commissioners were nominated for the District Award of Merit and for the Silver Beaver. We had special hats with the Commissioner's insignia on them for our Commissioner's team. We sent a few Commissioners to Philmont Training Center. We had every member of the Commissioner's Staff (myself included) serve as a Unit Commissioner for at least one unit. Recruiting retiring Cubmasters and Pack Committee Chairmen is a good idea, but a problem can be that they typically move to Boy Scouting with their sons. It can work better with female retiring Cubmasters and Pack Committee Chairmen; there seem to be more women, on a percentage basis, who would rather support Cub Scouting than become Boy Scout leaders. We had women in District Commissioner slots. This made other women feel more welcome in becoming Commissioners. We had a discussion on Commissioners at Wood Badge and at other training events. We talked about the need for Commissioners and encouraged people to join the staff. Another key item is that we realized that recruiting is a numbers game. For every Commissioner who is recruited, probably 3-10 people have to be asked. You can never stop. I think that the ideal person for building a Commissioner's staff (rather than maintaining one) might be a used car salesman. The places that I have seen the best Commissioner's Staffs have a Council Commissioner and District Commissioners who are warm bubbly people whom people just like to be around and who make others want to be Commissioners just to be around them. I greatly admire that skill, but don't have it myself . To the extent that we were successful, it was through grunt work, persistence and focus on making Commissioner service real and fun.

Boy run Troop is not an excuse for Liberty Hall. An analogy that I sometimes use in training is that a boy run Troop can be somewhat like a railroad. The boys get to run the trains, decide how fast the trains will run and when the trains will stop. But the rails are already laid out, so the path that the trains will take is decided. Early in a Troop or else when the senior boys have left and there is a new, younger crop of youth leaders, it may be that the boys only get to blow the whistle on the train. As they learn more about Scouting and its challenges, they get to take more responsibility. Has your SM been to training? Does he or she have any experience with other, more active units? Have any of your older boys been to National Youth Leader Training in your council, or its earlier version National Junior Leader Training? Have you had a Troop Youth Leader Training? Giving boys total responsibility can be an error, particularly if there is a culture of laziness on the part of the boys and their parents. It would be a little like having a family tell their kids "We can go anywhere you would like for your vacation, where would you like to go?" and permitting the kids to say "Let's go to McDonald's down the street." You may need to challenge some of the boys. And you may need to push the matter, saying "I think that a more adventurous campout would be great. I will take any boys that want to go (you need to make sure there are other adults ready to go too.) Who wants to go with me? Let's sign up."