NeilLup

Hello Its Me, Does National trust you to deliver the program? "National" has no choice. If you don't, nobody will. National really has no means, mechanism or capability to deliver the program. Units must do that. As far as First Class emphasis, I respectfully suggest that you, and many other leaders, have a serious misunderstanding of the program. It is an effect, not a cause. The idea is not to push kids to make First Class by barely completing the requirements in one year. Rather, the idea is that in a good, solid, active, camping Troop, the program will be such that as a natural part of being a Scout in the Troop and participating in activities, the Scout will complete the First Class requirements in one year. If one watche a Troop and Scouts make First Class legitimately and without pushing in about one year, it is a good solid, active program. And Scouts seem to stay in units of that sort. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

Hello Dibbus, My understanding is that the older boy CAN remain in Cub Scouting until the Pack reregisters. Assuming that your Pack doesn't reregister during the summer, he can stay a Cub Scout and both of them can become Boy Scouts together. Suggesting that the Pack and/or Troop "fudge" the Arrow of Light requirements is very inappropriate. They are the way that they are for a reason, and the reason is to ensure that boys who become Boy Scouts are old enough and mature enough to enjoy the experience. It also might be appropriate to talk with the parents about the wisdom of handcuffing the boys together in this way. That is very Cub Scouting like, but is not the Boy Scouting way. Each boy should move at his own pace.

Wood Badge will do so much for you and your Pack. It is a very worthwhile investment. I would suggest changing your Pack meeting night and trying to get one or more other leaders from your Pack to go too.

Hello Padilan Have you enjoyed watching the sparks fly? Let's consider, for a moment, the swamp that you started out to drain. You tried for a Position of Responsibility and were not selected. People whom you feel are unqualified or less qualified than you were selected. That happens. Life is unfair. But you do need a position of responsibility if you are going to advance. There are a few possibilities, some of which you can control, some not. There is no limit to the number of Troop Instructors that a Troop can have. Ask your SM or SPL to be appointed a Troop Instructor. You could be a Den Chief or Webelos Den Chief. You could ask to be a Troop Guide. If you are an OA member, you can ask to be Troop OA representative. And there are others. That way, you get to show leadership and you get credit for advancement. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

Hopefully, the idea of the secondhand uniform exchange for switchback trousers will become obsolete. Those trousers do seem to hold up pretty well. However, if the Scout wears them to more than just Scouts (school, other activities) then hopefully, they will wear out just about the time that they are outgrown. The uniform exchange is important for uniforms that get outgrown long before they are worn out. So let's wear those switchback trousers everywhere. Wear 'em out. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

FScouter has matters exactly right as I understand it. The requirement is to be active, not to be successful. If the boy is doing his best, that meets the requirement. If he is not doing his best, or is not around, the responsibility is on the SM or Troop to remove the boy from the position. Exactly as FScouter has stated, the SM cannot go back after the term and declare the boy failed. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

As with any job interview, I would be sure that he is prepared to talk about what he can do for them, what he brings to the job and how, as a staff member, he will improve the camp and the camping experience for the Scouts. Even items like saying "I would plan to be in clean correct uniform and be an example of good uniforming" would help convince the hiring manager that his head is in the right place. If he wants to do aquatics, he should be prepared to say why. What does he bring to aquatics? If archery, the same. What does he bring to archery? If he plans to learn about them, that's fine. But he should have had some experiences with aquatics/archery in the past and might be able to say "I had a great time at aquatics in camp, but I was wondering if the waterfront might be even better if we XXXXXXXX." Not with arrogance, but with the attitude that he wants to be a member of the team making things better. As a boy, I interviewed twice for summer camp staff, which I REALLY wanted to do and was not selected either time. It was a great disappointment for me. On the other hand, my daughter was archery director of our council's summer camp one year and had a great time.

Hello Joni, You have gotten some great advice from other posters. I would only add a few comments about trying to create a culture change. 1) The people that are in your Troop are there because they like the culture the way that it is. That means the parents and the youth. There may be some parents and youth who would like, appreciate, and respond to something tougher but not necessarily anything like the majority. If you were to succeed in putting into effect a massive culture change, you might find yourself with a lot smaller Troop. Or alternately, you might find that you have a rather unpleasant conversation with the CC or the COR and are invited to do your Scouting elsewhere. 2) That isn't saying that you are wrong. It sounds as if your sons have the real Scouting spirit and have gotten a lot out of the program. Good for them and good for you. 3) BP had a saying "Softly, softly, catchee monkey." If means that if you have a thoughtful plan in place and gradually implement the changes you want, you'll get a lot farther and ultimately a lot faster and less frustrated. The other appropriate story is the one of the frog and the pot. If you drop a frog into a pot of hot water, he'll just jump right out. But if you start with cold water and gradually raise the temperature, the next thing the frog knows, he's cooked 4) Position of Responsibility is a particularly unfortunate place to draw the line because the guidelines from the National Council make it almost impossible to fail a boy based on POR. They essentially state that if the boy has been appointed or elected to his job, and serves in it for the required period of time, he has met the requirement. No performance requirements can be placed on his service. The guidelines state that for a boy not to receive credit for POR, he must formally be removed from the job. He still gets time credit for the time that he held the job before he was removed. The reason for this, by the way, is that there were a great many cases, particularly for Eagle Scout, where the boy held his job fat, dumb and happy and then, at his Eagle SM Conference or Board of Review, was told that his service was unsatisfactory and was failed. National is saying that there should be no surprises. The requirement is to hold a leadership position and if the Troop is dissatisfied, the leaders should be brave enough to take appropriate action at the time, not when the boy's service is finished. 5) There are places where you can enhance the culture "softly, softly." You can, for example, ask the SM to delegate to you the authority to sign the merit badge cards as eligible for counseling. That will enable you to have a much better handle on what each boy is doing and how they are doing it. You can, in that process, be very actively involved in the selection of the merit badge counselors. Or, alternately, you can ask the SM to establish a procedure where you initial the card before the SM signs it. The result would be the same. 6) Another way that you can enhance the culture is by improving the quality of instruction of skills, not by punitive actions but by rewards. Ask the SM if you can watch some of the boys instructing and have some little rewards, badges, special neckerchiefs, beads, etc. to give to give to boy instructors that are doing a particularly good job. It could be, for example, that the reward would come when the learner demonstrates the skill to a qualified third party. The idea is to reward the behavior that you do want rather than punish the behavior that you don't want. 7) If you can, go to Wood Badge. It will help you and give you skills in dealing with the adults and youth to clarify what you want to achieve and help you get there. 8) Understand that a major culture change can require 3 years because that's how long it may take the people who liked and supported the old culture to leave and new people to join. 9) Scouting is a journey, not a finish line. That's true for Scouts and for adults. The challenge is how to get to the culture you want; how to make that journey. It will take time, patience and careful planning of your priorities. You need to pick your battles carefully and, hopefully, avoid battles by working in areas where nobody else is active. It's a beautiful thing when it happens. Been there, done that. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

Scoutmomma, You are in luck! There's a great course being offered this summer at PTC called "Strictly for Troop Committees." It is designed for people like you, Committee Chairmen, Committee Members and people who train and support them. It will help you to assess your Troop and your Committee and do what is needed to improve your Troop and have a great Troop. Check out the third week -- June 16-20 I hope to be there. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

I wish you well on the Eagle trail. Whether you make it or not, it does you great credit that you want to try. And there is absolutely no shame in being Life for life. There are a couple of things that you should know that are legends but also are incorrect. 1) You may hear that you need to do your project after all your merit badges are done. Not so. I would be ready to do that project as soon as I got my Life. 2) Don't wait on the merit badges until you are a Life Scout. Knock off as many as you can while you are still a First Class and a Star Scout. Take advantage of that tenure period so that when you make Life, you are almost done. 3) The other posters are absolutely correct about the position of responsibility. However, there are several appointed positions you can hold which would qualify you for Star, Life and Eagle Scout. At 16, I believe that you could be appointed a Junior Asst. Scoutmaster. For certain, you can at 17. However, this is up to your SM and your Troop Committee. A Troop has no limit on the number of Troop Instructors it can have. You can serve as a Troop Instructor. You could take the job of Troop Quartermaster. YOu could be a Troop Guide for some younger Scouts and you can be a Den Chief or Webelos Den Chief and help bring some boys into your Troop. If you are an OA member, you can be Troop OA representative. Talk with your Scoutmaster and make sure that he or she is on our side and will help make sure that you have a position of responsibility. If I were your Scoutmaster, I would say "great" to you and would answer any questions that you had and help you as much as I could to the extent that YOU ASKED AND TOOK THE INITIATIVE. But if you dropped the ball and went away for a period of time, I'd make no effort to remind you. YOu will need to earn about 1 - 1.5 merit badges per month to get done. However, if you can earn about 3 per month, you'll be close to finished merit badges in about 6 months and ready to concentrate on your project. As others have said, if this is your idea, great. But if you are doing it just to look good on college applications, there are simpler and less onerous ways to do that. We wish you well and hope you make it. Either way, we're proud of you.

There is a brand new unit of Supplemental Training on the BSA National Web site on bullying and cyberbullying. Go to www.scouting.org Then Boy Scouting, then Supplemental Training. This should help with the new Boy Scout requirements on bullying. Neil

Are you a Council or District Training Chairman or Training Committee Member? Do you write and develop Training Plans and Training Programs for your Unit, District or Council? Do you have some Boy Scout training programs which you think the BSA or your Council should offer? Would you like to know how BSA National Training programs are developed? Maybe even participate in developing some training yourself? Would you like to spend a great week of learning by doing? And combine it, if you wish, with a family vacation with exciting age-structured activities for everyone in your family. Heres your chance!! Developing Supplemental Training Philmont Training Center June 16-20, 2008 Learn about how to write, develop and test training courses Learn what works and what doesnt. How to make training happen. What makes a good course and what makes a great course. How to evaluate a training course you have developed and make it even better. Learn how to target a training course for the planned audience Scouts, Youth Leaders, Unit Leaders, District and Council Leaders Select a topic of interest to you and other participants and write and teach a Unit of Supplemental Training. Share training ideas, tips and techniques with great Scouting trainers from all over the USA To participate in this course, contact your Council Training Chairman or Scout Executive and ask for an invitation. Or contact Philmont Training Center and ask for information and an application. Philmont Training Center Philmont Scout Ranch 17 Deer Run Road Cimarron, NM 87714 Phone: 505-376-2281 Fax: 505-376-2629 E-mail: trainingcenter@philmontscoutranch.org

Excellent thread, good discussion. The idea of making things right going forward and treating events of the past with friendliness, courtesy and kindness seems very appropriate. One other thought: There are 8 methods of Scouting. Advancement is only one and not necessarily the most important one. Most units that I know shatter the uniforming method. (Our Troop uniform is Boy Scout shirt and bluejeans.) Isn't that about the same as not having SM Conference and BOR? Many units shatter boy leadership either intentionally or unintentionally. There are other methods that are not followed particularly well or are even shattered. Each unit works its own balance on how they will prioritize the various methods in order to accomplish the aims of Scouting their way. Just as the boys promise to do their best, we as leaders do the same. We don't promise to be perfect or to be successful; just to try our best. When a new leader comes in, he or she learns about and looks at the methods and reprioritizes. That doesn't make what came before invalid. It doesn't make what the Troop across the street does differently invalid. It's just different. The fact that advancement gets a lot of press and has a lot of rules and scrutiny doesn't change that it is one of 8 methods, no more and no less.

Hello Gern, YOu probably know this, but if your Scout with Aspergers bumps up agsinst the age 18 deadline, it is possible based on disability to petition for additional time to finish. I particularly suspect that the petition would be favorably considered if he had been trying for a year to get the approval without success. If necessary, get the procedure for Scouts with disabilities.

I have been a defendant in a BSA related lawsuit. It happened because of an incident that occurred when I was Council Commissioner. There was an accusation of child abuse at a one of our council camps. I did not even visit the camp that summer. However, every member of our council's executive committee were listed personally as defendants. Part of the reason, I suspect, is that in our state there is a $20,000 limit on recovery of damages from a non-profit. So it is common to sue individuals on which there is no limit. The BSA provided legal counsel at no cost to me. They took action to remove me as a defendant and were successful in that effort after about 3 weeks. I was pleased no longer to receive invitations to that party.

In reading this thread, I believe that I hear the strains of "Pick a little, talk a little" from the Music Man. That was the song sung by the ladies gossip circle. Eisley very correctly made an important distinction - the difference between being removed from Scouting and being removed from the unit The former is an extremely formal process. The latter is quite straightforward. As has been said, the COR or IR can effect it. But if a person is removed from another unit, they can go to another unit. Many comments have been made about the morality of this situation. But not every religion would agreee taht this is greviously immoral and not every chartered organization is a religious institution. If these leaders did not believe that they did anything wrong or contrary to their religion, would it change matters at all? It certainly is the prerogative of a parent to remove their child from the unit for any reason that they choose. The DE does not need to be involved. The boy simply stops attending meetings and campouts and is not reregistered. However, calling a public parents meeting to make accusations of fornication or adultery on a camping trip stries me as WAY over the top. This parent clearly has an agenda. If they are leaving the unit, it seems that they are following a "scorched earth" policy of trying to do as much damage to the reputation of the unit and its leaders as possible in their leaving. This is, I fear, the action of a busybody. It is really unfortunate. However, with all this mud being slung, it is probably wise for the chartered organization and the Troop leadership to take some action to remove the mud. It might be wise to ask the second leader to work with another unit or to take a leave of absence from Scouting for a period of time. That should allow things to calm down The action of the leaders was clearly unwise in the context of Scouting. It was contrary to the explicit guidelines of the Guide to Safe Scouting although hardly unprecedented in the Scouting situations that I have known. The correct action might be to reinforce in the Troop that every leader and hopefully every parent has read and understood the Guide to Safe Scouting and promises to follow it. That should be enough.

There's another interesting question. How is the 83 million figure arrived at. Is it unique members or is it just the sum of membership for every year since 1911. In the latter case, if a boy had been a member for four years, was he counted four times in the 83 million? I wouldn't take as a given that the 83 million is unique members, Determining unique emembers would take a lot of work and I would be surprised if that work had been done. But then I get surprised easily.

Hello Aquila, I do not believe that the Eagle Socut award has been revoked for "avowed homosexuality." Individuals deemed "avowed homosexuals" may be denied registration in the future, but that does not change what they accomplished in the past. For example, I do not believe that there was ever any suggestion of revoking James Dale's Eagle Scout award. The BSA considers him an Eagle Scout, simply one who is not now eligible to be registered with the BSA.

Good thread! I have very rarely heard of a Troop electing all of the Scouts which are eligible candidates. Commonly, the Scouts are pretty selective. Bill, to address your specific question, it is possible for no one from your Troop to be elected. If the Scout does not receive a positive vote from a majority of your Scouts, then the election team will immediately take a second vote. If he still does not receive a positive vote, then there will be no candidate from your Troop. Actually, I believe that the current rules are tougher on the boys than the previous quote rules. Previously, you could tell a boy who was not elected "There's nothing wrong with you; you're a good Scout. It's just that the other candidates are good Scouts too and we could only elect so many. You'll have a great chance next year." Now, there's no place to hide. Each candidate is considered on his merits and the only thing can do is the on-the-spot Scoutmaster Conference talking about how he needs to improve. As a Scoutmaster, I would not be a gatekeeper unless there is some boy whom you feel has so bamboozled the Troop or who is so rich/politically prominent, etc. that the Troop members in a secret ballot would not really judge his character. I might exclude the Scout who hasn't shown up for several months and then shows up for the election. But by and large, I would let all eligible candidates stand for election. The Troop members know pretty well what's going on.

I just found this thread and have some very mixed feelings: 1) Long, long ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I was a boy wanting to be an Eagle Scout. There was no pull-up requirement for TF, but for Eagle Scout, there was the requirement for Personal Fitness merit badge and one requirement at my age was 6 pull-ups. I could not do one. I couldn't come close to doing one. (I was a chubby little guy and spent 90 minutes each day each way on the school bus, so there wasn't a lot of opportunity for exercise.) I had pretty much given up being an Eagle Scout until one of the leaders made a suggestion. He recommended taking a pull-up bar and suspending it from the ceiling by some strong large rubber bands. This would allow me to do the full pull-up motion without lifting my entire weight. As I got stronger, he then suggested adding more rubber bands until I was finally getting myself off the ground. I did this and it took me EIGHT MONTHS of daily exercise and practice until I could do one pull-up! It then took another 4 months for a total of one year until I could do the six pull-ups! But I did it and got my Eagle Scout. 2) If you can get access to a reasonably well equipped fitness gym, they may have a Gravitron machine. This allows one to do pull-up type motions without lifting one's full body weight. If, for example, one started and needed 50 lbs of weight counterbalanced to do the pull-up and after 30 days of practice, one needed only 30 lbs of weight counterbalanced, that clearly and quantifiably is improvement. Another modification is to set the pull-up bar so that the Scout can start lying on his back. By keeping the body straight and changing the fulcrum point, one can show improvement. (The closer to the feet the fulcrum, the more difficult. Alternately, the Scout could put weights on his upper body from the prone position to show improvement. 3) Making a boy wait 3 1/2 years to become a Tenderfoot Scout because of the pull-up requirement is unconscionable. Having said that, absent some physical disability, working hard at improving physical fitness for 3.5 years and not being able to do one pull-up is inconceivable. This is particularly true since the Scout presumably went through puberty during that time with the accompanying increase in upper body strength. I apologize if ny next sentence is offensive but did the Scout really make a concerted effort or was it a couple of hard pulls, "I can't do this" and back to the couch and the munchies. The objective of this requirement is to make the Scout aware of fitness and give him a reasonable start (it is, after all, Tenderfoot Scout, the first rank.) It may be necessary both for him to increase the arm strength and to decrease his personal weight that he has to lift. 4) This should be an area where reason prevails. Being so adamant does not serve the Committee well. However, being unable to do one pull-up after 3.5 years of exercise calls into question if he really is "doing his best" even at the Tenderfoot Scout level.

I'm sorry for the problem that you are having. I am counseling one participant right now who had a similar problem. He just finished Only to be friendly, courteous and kind, I would probably first try a phone call or other communication to your course director or to your ASM-Troop Guides, mention your problem briefly and ask if there has been some kind of personal problem with your Ticket Counselor which has made it impossible for them to finish their job. There might be. Ask the CD or ASM-TG how they think you should proceed as you believe you are now finished. Ask if one of them will take the responsibility. Hopefully, they will. Ultimately, however, the responsibility for your ticket counseling rests within your home council. Commonly, ticket counselors are assigned from the staff on a course to out of council people, but it certainly does not have to be that way. You have a certificate of completion of the practical course. If your Council Training Chairman assigns you a local ticket counselor, they can certify your work and the beads are processed through your local council. Again, if you do that, it is courtesy to let the staff of your course know, but you do not have to and they really have no say in the matter.

Great thread! Packsaddle, what I will suggest risks hardening positions and it sounds as if you are skillfully getting movement from the SM. However, if he ever becomes obstinant and simply refuses to proceed, then I believe taht you, and the Scout, are within your reasonable rights to ask him to document clearly why he believes that the Scout does not meet the Scout Spirit requirement for Eagle Scout. If he declines to do that, then I would suggest that you document it, as you have described it here, take it to him and ask if this accurately represents his position so that he will sign it. If he refuses that, then point out the difficulty to the Scout that his position is taking. He is saying "no" but not giving a reason that the boy can work with. You then could take your note to the Board of Review and explain that this is what the SM told you orally but did not want to confirm in writing. Ugly business. Much better if reason prevails and agreement can be reached.

Did these youth participate in the decision to do Scouting for Food? Was that part of the schedule created and approved by the PLC? Was it known at the time that there would be an OA activity. If they and/or the PLC voted for it and their absence impacted the Troop, then something might be said. Having said that, for youth as well as for adults, Scouting is a volunteer activity. You can lay a certain amount of obligation and guilt on youth but if you push it too hard, they just may do activities other than Scouting that don't lay on a guilt and obligation trip. One of the challenges is to have a Troop program that is exciting, rewarding and challenging for both the younger boys and the older ones. It certainly is appropriate to talk to these older boys about why they chose to do the OA activity and whether they knew about it at the time that Scouting for Food was scheduled. You are totally appropriate and providing training and guidance for them in reminding them that in the future, they need to plan their activities to avoid conflicts. But don't make it too heavy.

Pete, let me give a name in connection with your question: John Ehrlichman, the advisor to President Nixon He not only was an Eagle Scout but was a Distinguished Eagle Scout. He was then convicted in connection with Watergate and did time in federal prison. Eagle Scout is a rank in Scouting with requirements. If the boy meets the requirements, he is awarded Eagle Scout rank. If his character later becomes less than Scouting would like, it doesn't change the fact that he did meet all the requirements. He is an Eagle Scout and will be one for life. There is at least one Eagle Scout that I know of who was executed for murder in Texas. He was an Eagle Scout. He met the requirements. Being an Eagle Scout does not mean that one can continue to be connected with Scouting, can continue to be registered or can be a leader. If you find it appropriate, you can deny any or all of those in your unit with this Eagle Scout. But it doesn't change the fact that he is an Eagle Scout any more than it would if he were a Tenderfoot Scout.

Sounds good, John, You said that his Dad understands the concept of fair warning. Does his dad understand (and accept) the concept of "It's HIS Eagle, not yours." It may be beneficial, if possible, to privately tell the Dad the stories of kids who have refused to finish their Eagle just because their parents were pushing so hard or, worse, of the ones (I have heard of two) who were presented the Eagle, handed to their parents (Mom, normally) said "This is yours, not mine. You're the one that wanted it and you're the one that did all the work." And walked off stage and out of Scouting.