NeilLup

Whether this question is appropriate is, in my opinion, very dependent upon the Scout. I say this because an Eagle Board of Review can be an extreme pressure situation , particularly for someone almost 18. It might take real courage for a boy to say "I believe that it is my right to keep my personal vote private and secret." He has no idea how the Board will take that. So if it is a Scout who is strong, outgoing and quick on his feet, I might ask it. If the Scout is shy, introverted and a bit unsure of himself, I might consider the question to be coercive.

Here's a Scouting Truth I heard from a very wise consultant. We say that Scouting is a youth program and indeed it is, but really successful Scouting is an adult program run for the benefit of youth. If you have a group of adults functioning as unit leaders and committee, enjoying each other's company, working together, having a good time and looking forward to spending time together, you'll have a good unit. If you have the adults working together, the kids will come.

This may show my strangeness, but the uniform that I respect (and in many cases try to follow) is the one that could have lots of square knots but doesn't wear any. This used to be the custom for Wood Badge and Wood Badge staffs. The idea was that, as BP had originally suggested, the uniform is an equalizer. One is judged on one's merits; not on one's insignia. I have a colleague who could wear just about every adult award there is -- Silver Buffalo, Silver Antelope, Silver Beaver, District Award of Merit, Vigil Honor, etc. His most common uniform has no square knots. In my own case, I could wear 11 square knots if I wanted to. I have them on a removable device and most commonly wear none. I only wear them if I am to be the senior person at some kind of ceremony and want to give credibility and stature to the honorees or if I think that the group has a couple of insignia happy people and I want to make sure that my status is established in their eyes. Having said that, do have mixed feelings about this. I believe in the adult awards program and encourage leaders to earn and wear their insignia. And sometimes I wear square knots for that reason; so that newer leaders don't think there is something wrong with the adult leader recognition programs. But I do know of leaders who have felt out of place and like second class citizens because their uniform is bare. It's a tough line to walk to decide how much is right and how much is too much.

I believe that very commonly, a District Director is the senior person in a District and has one or more District Executives report to him/her. Not always, however. There is a progression from District Executive to Senior District Executive to District Director within the BSA. It is a person who has been around for awhile, is paid more, etc. Remembering back to my Air Force days, it's a little like going from 2nd Lieutenant to 1st Lieutenant to Captain. Those were important steps but where I was did not necessarily mean that one was doing a different job. In some cases, a Captain would work side by side as an equal with a 2nd Lt. In others, a Captain might be a senior person who would have several Lieutenants working for him. But a Captain would be expected to know things and do things and, most importantly, not make the rookie mistakes that a 2nd Lt. would make.

If she wants to give a gift that is really invaluable to a Wood Badge Scouter, she should give a Wood Badge "Why are you spending so much time on Scouting?" free pass certificate. Have her make up a nice certificate that says something like "Scouting Free Pass" on it. Then, at some time in the future, when she is beating on him about why he is spending so much time on Scouting and not doing XXXXXX around the house or with her, he can pull out the certificate, give it back to her and she will immediately back off and drop the matter. If he is a true Wood Badger, I would be surprised if the certificate lasts a week.

I missed this thread until it was too late. However, for WB participants needing a diversity item, you might check out the 21st century pioneer award from the Boston Minuteman Council. http://www.bsaboston.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=15641&orgkey=1123

Yes. In one case, a long time Scouter who had suffered for many years with a degenerative muscular disease died. At our Executive Board meeting, we passed the hat with the idea of funding a James E. West in her honor. We succeeded and presented it to her family. In another case, a Scouter funded (I don't like the term "purchased") a James E. West fellowship in the name of another Scouter whose personal and family situation did not permit consideration of that kind of gift to the council. Then he funded a second one in the name of her spouse who also was a Scouter. Our OA lodge typically funds a James E. West fellowship for one person each year. You can buy any knot that you wish. Just go down to the Scout Shop. The way that one qualifies for the James E. West is different from the way that one qualifies for other awards.

It's pretty much what others have said, but here are the things that I have found contribute to a less than great Philmont experience (or high advcnture camping experience in general) 1) Not being physically fit 2) Not doing the training hikes and being prepared 3) Having less than great equipment or not knowing how to use it 4) Having a sense of entitlement (this normally applies to adults more than youth.) And the number one reason for having a less than great time 5) Having a bad attitude. This latter one can be: a) My share of the work is unfair b) My share of the gear to carry is unfair c) I don't like the leader/ I wanted to be the leader d) This is harder than I expected e) Everybody is picking on me f) My girlfriend/boyfriend broke up with me right before we came etc.etc.etc. Philmont crews follow the normal curve of "forming, storming, norming, performing" as they are on their trek. About the day 2-3, attitude can get pretty rough sometimes. By the end of the trek, the crew is a great team but if something happens to a Scout to bring them out about day 2-3, they could report a bad experience.

I think that Wingnut has it right. It may or may not be adding requirements but it sucks the fun right out. This is supposed to be a fun exercise. I fear that this is making it into a school project. Kids have enough school projects. As I see it, the key thing isn't the animals per se, it's going into the outdoor, looking for and finding the animals. Having said that, I don't think I'd have a problem if the Scout were required to show evidence that he would choose of having seen the animals or evidence of them. Best of all would be to go on a hike with his PL or other senior Scout and show them. But photos, tracings of tracks, photos of tracks, casts of tracks, droppings, etc. would work too. Provided that it's fun.

There may be a subtlety here in play that to me, at least, is important. Virtually any question is fair game for an Eagle Board. The key thing is that the boy may not be rejected as a result of his answer. That is the problem with the "Do you believe in God?" question. If the boy is not articulate or theologically quite sophisticated, it can lead to an answer which is not technically accurate and can cause problems for all concerned. That is why "How do you show reverence?" or "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" is better. It gives the boy a chance to tell what he has done and is an exploring question.

Barry, you are fortunate. I know of Eagle Board members who consider themselves Horatius at the Bridge to keep "atheists" from becoming Eagle Scouts. They ask pointed questions and the only acceptable answer to them to "Do you believe in God" is "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior." The effort is made to train Board members and to identify and remove individuals like this. They are becoming much less common, but they do happen.

Interesting thread. If you have the feeling that you have too many "chiefs" it may mean that your "leaders" are untrained and have more the "I'm the boss" attitude about leadership than the servant leader concept. Not surprising as boys have extremely little experience with peer leadership, particularly when helicopter parents are around. So one answer is to conduct some pretty intensive training of the leaders, or, if your unit is small, of everybody. The boys with positions of responsibility need to understand what their job is and how to be a servant leader. Check out Troop Leadership Training (TLT) which is a BSA manual. I would also comment that below the level of Life Scout, no Scout "needs" a position of responsibility to advance. Up through First Class Scout, there is no leadership requirement. For Star and Life, the requirement is either a position of responsibility or a Scoutmaster assigned project and functioning as some kind of leader in the Troop can be such a project. I know of Scoutmasters who have considered serving as Asst. Patrol Leader to be such a project if the boy really did a good job. So if you want to have very few official "leaders" in the Troop, you can do that. Then, if a boy says that he wants to be Scribe or Historian or Quartermaster, you could say "Why don't you try doing the job unofficially for a month and let's see how it goes. If you like it and do a good job, we'll consider giving you the position and the badge formally." Consider making having a position of responsibility something special that has to be earned.

I would only add that Scouting tries to make it possible for an adult with no previous experience to function extremely well as a leader. There is a training program and plenty of literature. I have known people with no experience who started out as the Scoutmaster or Cubmaster in a Pack (not the assistant, the head person.) They got trained, ideally before taking the job, read the material and did what it said. They went to roundtables and cultivated some experienced leaders. They got to know their Commissioner and their training chairman. They did a fantastic job. It certainly is possible that you feel that lots of experience is necessary or even that the leaders in your unit are leading you to think that lots of experience is necessary. It helps, but it is not necessary.

Hello Lee, As with many such things, the best answer is "It depends." 1) If you have been to NLS, you will find substantial similarity between what you learned there and Wood Badge. They were developed by many of the same people. 2) The one high level OA youth I knew that took Wood Badge did not have a good experience. 3) I know several other youth that took it that did have a good experience. So I would say that if you are taking Wood Badge because you think that you have to or that it is the right thing for you to do at this time, it is probably not the right time. But if you have educated yourself to what goes on and you say to yourself "It would be great to do these things with other, much older leaders and learn about the point of view of those older leaders" then the time is right. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

1) Wood Badge 2) Wood Badge 3) Wood Badge do I need to continue with 4,5 and 6? The bashing is, as others have said, agenda based. For a newer leader, or even for an experienced leader, Wood Badge is THE advanced course to take. Once that is done, the courses the others have suggested are excellent. No one has mentioned training at Philmont Training Center. Cub Scout week is an outstanding experience and you can take the course that you wish. Look it up on-line and, if you wish, ask your council to be invited. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

I am entitled to wear 11 square knots on my uniform including some that are pretty rare and considered pretty high level. Most often, I wear none. Your post is part of the reason. When I do wear them, it is often to have credibility with the kind of leaders that you mention in your unit. I would then use that to support a leader like your husband. We recently recruited a Cubmaster with absolutely no Scouting background for the Pack for which I am a Unit Commissioner. He has no square knots. He is doing a fantastic job. As far as square knots that your husband could earn the right to wear quickly, it is not a square knot, but your husband can go to Wood Badge and earn his Wood Badge beads. That is a powerful, well-respected recognition in Scouting. Also as far as square knots, there is one that he could get tomorrow, but you may not want to hear it. That is the James E. West fellowship knot. One becomes a James E. West fellow by contributing $1000 or more to the endowment fund of your local council. It's that simple I can't say don't worry about square knots but don't be too concerned. Leaders who know what they are doing know who is doing a great job.

Welcome to the forum, BuffaloJoe. With respect, may I suggest that you check the Scout Law as developed by Baden Powell. I believe that you will find there are only ten points. None of them have anything to do with reverent. That is unique to the USA. This is not to say that BP did not believe in religion, particularly the religion of the outdoors and woods. But he did not include it in the Scout Law.

Hats are interesting. I remember that when I was in the Air Force, there was a detailed series of rules on when one did and did not wear the hat. The Navy had an even longer series of rules. I am also a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the current recommended way in the BSA of preparing for prayer. The leader is recommended to say "Please prepare to pray according to your tradition." Those who want to remove hats do so; those who leave them on do so. As far as hats in church, I remember from my youth in Catholic churches that men were not to wear head cover and women had to. I can only speculate on why and suspect that the reason is not complimentary to women Courtesy cuts both ways just like loyalty and obedience. If you try to be courteous, according to your tradition and beliefs and the other person chooses not to be courteous, it doesn't diminish you. One can always say "Sir (or Madam as the case may be) I am attempting to be courteous to you. I am sorry if I offended you or if you did not perceive me as courteous." As far as the men not taking off their hats in an LDS church, if there were a correction to be made, it appropriately should be done by someone who is a member of the church. I am sure that if someone from that church had said "Excuse me, may I ask you to remove your hats. That is the custom in our church." They would have done so. I know that years ago, exactly that was said about smoking in the LDS church and the man stopped. I would respectfully suggest that one controls one's actions and is courteous in one's own actions. In one's home "turf", one guides others to be courteous and respectful. However, to take offense at another person because they are doing something in a third parties "turf" which is perceived as inappropriate is not courteous. Rather, the courteous thing to do is either to ignore the "offense" or to say privately and respectfully "Excuse me but would you mind removing your hat. I believe that it is the custom in this church to do so." I one time saw an adult leader walk over to a Scout during an interfaith service and rip the hat off a boy saying "Take off your hat. Show some respect for God." Turns out the boy was Jewish. The adult had no idea what he was doing. Courtesy is not being offended at what other do; rather it is controlling what we do and doing our best to accomodate and accept others

Forgive me for being a real pain, Trevorum. But ketchup is not thixotropic, in fact thixotropic behavior is the exact opposite of ketchup behavior. Thixotropy means that increased shear causes the fluid to become less viscous. Rather, ketchup is a dilatent fluid, sometimes called dilatropic. This type of fluid has the viscosity increase with increasing shear. Sorry for being a nerd.

Please let me quote from the excellent unit of supplemental training on Board of Review which can be found on the National BSA web site. www.scouting.org then Boy Scouting >> Supplemental Training "Discussion of a Scout's religion is very appropriate at a board of review, but it should be done with respect and appreciation for the variety of faiths and beliefs in the United States. An open-ended question like "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" will allow the boy to discuss his religious beliefs. A blunt "Do you believe in God?" should be avoided as there are some religions that do not use the name "God" for their supreme being or higher power" The point is that the question "Do you believe in God" appears to have an agenda and possibly an unfriendly agenda on the part of the adult asking the question. Many youth have questions about "God" particularly because they associate "God" with big formal religion. However, if a youth were to tell me at a Board of Review that he is doing his best to understand about the world and about a supreme being and he is uncertain but is working his way toward his personal beliefs, I would be totally satisfied. In fact, I would be far more satisfied than with the kid who just parrots the beliefs of his parents and is taking the most easy and comfortable path to get his Eagle. Our job, in my opinion, is to help our youth. Not to find reasons to reject them nor to force them to coincide with our beliefs and procedures in order to receive recognition.

My understanding is that talen has it exactly correct. At OA events, there are four sleeping areas: 1) Males under 18 2) Males 18,19 and 20 3) Males 21 and over 4) Females ( who by membership rules are only eligible if 21 or older) It does produce goofiness. I remember the story of two National officers of Venturing. They were dating. The boy was 20 and the girl 19. Everybody thought it was great until the boy turned 21. He was now an adult!! and utterly forbidden to date a "youth." The only solution was for one of them to drop out of Venturing until they were both 21. The girl ended up dropping out and, of course, resigning as a National officer.

Hello Novice Cubmaster, I don't completely agree with the logic I will outline here but --- Given a completely free choice, would a boy ever eat vegetables or would it be candy every meal? Given a completely free choice, would a boy go to school or would he play video games? For some families, the choice of youth activities particularly including Scouting is a continuation of the religious education and activity chosen by the parents. And for some religions, particularly the LDS, Scouting is their official youth organization for boys and the one that the church expects the youth and family will participate in. You can certainly disagree with this, but it is so and the BSA supports this kind of choice.

Actually, John, I believe that LDS sponsored units are often not restrictive in their membership. They are delighted to have non LDS Scouts and families participate in their units. Outreach and all that. There might be some restriction in the leadership that non-LDS youth can hold as adult and youth leaders in LDS units are not necessarily selected the same as in other units but even there, I'm not sure. There are some units which are restrictive in membership although those are rare. Scouting itself does not discriminate but an individual unit may. I would imagine that if the only unit that a youth had available discriminated on religion, the youth could participate as a Lone Scout.

Came on this thread rather late. I would only note that sometimes, turning a Scout down at some stage for advancement is doing him a great favor and very much in line with the aims of the BSA. Kids don't get told "you didn't meet the requirements" very often nowadays. So if you, in polite and courteous way, told him that, told him why and told him what he needs to do to pass, you arguably are doing much more for his citizenship, character and fitness than giving a courtesy pass. I would imagine that most of us on the list could say that being turned down for something at one time or another was one of the most motivational things that ever happened to us. I know that is true for me. That doesn't make it any easier or more fun for you. But, as I have heard in training courses, anyone can deal with the easy kids and the easy cases. It takes the great leaders to handle the tough ones. Thank you for lifting the big rocks. Best wishes, Neil Lupton

Bob White has it exactly and precisely correct. Any unit for which he/she is Unit Commissioner is very fortunate.