NeilLup

If we look for a moment at the swamp we started out to drain. May I suggest that you take a wireless or broadband capable laptop to your next unit meeting. Have the ASM sit down and complete YPT on-line. It will take about half an hour maximum. Have him print out the certificate when finished. If you have no printer, print it out as a .pdf file. End of problem. It took half an hour and didn't raise blood pressure that much

Hello, A couple of thoughts. 1) Inclusion of the Scouts who abstained would only matter if the voting were exceedingly close. Under current OA procedures, Scouts who abstain are not included in the number needed to be elected. Let's say that you have 14 Scouts at camp voting and 2 abstain. That leaves 12 voting. The number of votes needed to be elected is six. Now let's say that the abstaining Scout decides to vote so there are 13 voting. The number of votes needed to be elected is now seven. The vote of the abstainer would make no difference at all. So adding one abstainer to the voting group would make no difference in this case. The only way that the having the abstainer vote would matter would be if: a) there had been an odd number of voters initially b) the non elected Scout had been only one vote short of being elected c) the abstainer voted for him Alternately, if the non-elected Scout had been one vote short and both abstainers voted for him. Possible, but probably pretty unlikely. I would note that these Scouts are 12 and will have many, many chances to be elected to the OA. You may be able to do much more to build citizenship, character and fitness in the non-elected Scout by counseling with him about why he was not elected and what he might do about it for next year. I say that as a person who was not elected to the OA until the third try. 2) I would also use extreme care in using terms like "travesty of justice." This is a kids program designed for fun and enjoyment for youth and improvement of citizenship, character and fitness. Encouraging kids to think that they got screwed is probably not a benefit. Use the situation to the boy's advantage. What troubles me a lot more is that the election procedures call for written ballots. I REALLY don't like the idea of put your head down and raise hands. That screams for kids to peek to find out who "hates me." That procedure did violate National guidelines although probably not sufficiently to do anything about it.

I've been involved with a few of these. I can only hope that your local council advancement committee is experienced because I have seen a few cases of "That isn't that special. He didn't do that much." If this were his job, i.e. he is a lifeguard, then he does not qualify for any award. Depending upon circumstances, it would sound as if the Heroism Award or the Medal of Merit would be appropriate. Based on the article, I would recommend for the Heroism Award. I always recommend to our council's committee that they approve the highest level award that might be given and send it on to National. The National Court knows how to downgrade an award if appropriate. However, for obvious reasons, the BSA likes to give out these awards. I hope that you got the names and statements of the EMTs involved. Those statements are very useful in documenting that the Scout really did save a life. By way of information, there are, I believe, about 250 Honor Medals and Heroism Awards given out each year and about 150 Medals of Merit. By way of comparison, there are over 50,000 Eagle Scout Awards given each year. Congratulations to your Scout.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

Hello Gunny, No, but we are, once again, getting paralyzed about Scout advancement. To make Eagle Scout, one must meet the requirements to be an Eagle Scout. That means 21 merit badges and an Eagle project. However, if the Scout does his sincere best and falls short, he has done his duty as a Scout. He has done what is required to be a good Scout. There is no shame in his status, nor should he in any way be made to feel unworthy. This is, in my opinion, a problem with the great hoohoo we do about Eagle Scouts. Yet that is today's society. Advancement is only one of the methods of Scouting and arguably not the most important one.

With respect to OGE, I disagree. The standard is to do one's best and, if so, one has met the standard for being a Scout. To be a Scout, one is not required to succeed. Perhaps it's hair splitting, but that doesn't necessarily mean that doing one's best is sufficient to advance except in the somewhat more subjective areas like Scout Spirit. One is still required to do the days and nights of camping and meet the requirements for personal fitness. But I would say that the same thing is true for Cub Scouting. If the requirement is to do something, the Cub Scout has to do it to advance. He has to do his best. Granted, what "his best" is should likely be dramatically different for a 7-10 year old than for a 14-17 year old. But still, the standard should be, is it his best all factors considered.

Hello, 1) I know of people who have appealed to the National Council for ranks other than Eagle Scout. It is rare, but it happens. 2)Words like "arbitrary" and "roadblocks" are, in some cases, accurate and precise. Some units, for example, have a strict percentage attendance requirement for being active and for leadership. In other cases, there may be a formal or informal age requirement for certain ranks. According to the National guidelines, that is not proper. 3) As a practical matter, a unit may use whatever criteria it chooses. All that happens is, if a Scout appeals, the appeal will be upheld. Appeals are rare. 4) The main thing that troubles the National Council in advancement is telling the Scout after the fact that he has failed or that his service was unsatisfactory. If the Scout has not been informed of any deficiency in performance and he believes he has done his best, then the National Council believes he should advance. 5) I believe that part of what the National Council is trying to do is disconnect great performance in leadership and advancement. In other words, being able to advance in rank should not be, in the opinion of National advancement, be the carrot used to encourage good performance as a leader. The SM and Troop can certainly come up with other carrots and sticks to encourage good performance, but not that one. 6) Personally, I don't like the idea of needing to remove a boy from his position of responsibility. For anyone, I believe that risks violating "A Scout is Kind" and "A Scout is Friendly." Doing that to an 11 or 12 year old boy could be very painful for him. And it's one thing if he is showing poor attendance. But if he wants to be a leader and is trying but just isn't very good at it, needing to remove him could do permanent harm. In that case, as Calico Penn has said, the standard is has he done his best. If so, he gets to advance. 7) Part of what this is saying is that the adult leaders cannot be lazy. They need to keep working with youth and not just say, after the fact, "Poor job as a leader, you can't advance."

Actually, John, not to be too jesuitical, but I don't think that the ACP&P does proscribe leaders from other Troops. It says that the BOR must have at least 3 Troop Committee members. I don't believe that is explicitly says that they need to be from the boy's Troop; presumably, they could be Troop Committee members from any Troop and meet the written requirement. I believe that we all know what is intended but if one wants to microtome hairs, I believe that is what is said.

In fact, A board member just contacted me a few days ago asking for my help in a fundraising program he is planning....why would he ask for my help if he though I was going to halt potential? >> Do it .... do it, do it, do it , do it, do it. There is nothing quite like fund raising and being known as a fund raiser to get one appointed to the Board. Plus this is the kind of person that may be willing to help mentor you and get you appointed to the Board.

After 6 months of being troop guide, I plan to be the OA Rep. come my 16th birthday my scoutmaster wants me to become a JASM (hope I am still a good leader in a year ) So I guess that's my future in scouting>> Outstanding, Michael. It sounds as if you have an excellent, clearcut path laid out that will help you grow. I might only comment that you have laid out your short term and maybe intermediate term future. Longer term, who knows? You might just end up a Scoutmaster answering questions from Scouts. We wish you well.

"I have tried to do my due diligence on this issue; I have poured over by-laws, looked over training manuals, looked up stuff on the internet, and even called the National Scout Office. It really comes down to the Council. Im sure that if my council wanted me on the Executive board at 20 years of age, they would find a way to get me on." Wise on your part. And as I have followed the thread, I see some other elements of wisdom. Meeting with the nominating committee is good, and it is great that they gave you the time that they did. I was going to write that I thought the BSA Nationally mandated rule for Board members is age 21 as it is for many other jobs. As was written, patience. You'll be over 21 for a long, long, long time. Please don't take this next section wrong. It is possible that you are considered a person who is a pain in the tail, or a person with an agenda, by the current SE or by the current Board. If so, it won't happen while they are in charge. Are you a gadfly? That kind of person can be not appreciated, particularly by the "old boy's club." What to do? Make yourself useful in positions which would lead to Board membership. Get a position on one of the Council Committees and do the job, acting as an adult. Get a full set of adult leader training, ending up with Wood Badge. Act as adult leaders do. But, and this can be a matter of much more than age, if the SE and the nominating committee don't want you on the Board, you won't be. What you DO need is some mentors and supporters. Do you know some of the Board members and possibly some of the council officers. Talk with them about what you would like to do. Get them to help and support you. That is a most likely pathway to getting what you want. I know of people age 21 or so who have been elected to Executive Boards as full members. But by and large, they are people who have done pretty special things as leaders. (I think of one young man, in particularly, who organized and ran a Merit Badge University that ended up with over 30 MBs and over 400 participants.) A very wise boss of mine once told me that the route to getting a promotion is simple, although sometimes very difficult to put into practice. He said that is is just that the person able to put you where you want to be has to be willing to put you where you want to be. If it doesn't happen, it has to either be because the person is not able or is not willing. If, for example, you want a promotion and they say the job is filled, then they are saying they are not willing. They could fire the incumbent. So you have to figure out who is able to get you on the executive board and then to figure out how to get them willing to put you on the board. How is it to their advantage to have you on the board? Is there any way that they might consider it to be to their disadvantage to have you on the board/ Be very honest with yourself. Thanks for your interest and enthusiasm. I suspect that it will happen and possibly sooner than you think.

Hello Michael, We do get wandering in the weeds sometimes, don't we? To get back to your original question, a few thoughts: 1) The SM pretty much controls the youth leadership structure of the unit. So in your unit, what the SM says pretty much goes. Under unusual circumstances, that might be overridden by the committee, chartered organization, etc. but normally that happens right before a change of SMs. 2) Having spent time in both the military and the BSA, I get troubled when people use the term "chain of command" in the BSA. We don't give commands. We do have a leadership structure and I believe that the formal leadership structure is rather simple SM-SPL-PL-Scout The other leaders are helpers, mentors, assistants, advisors, etc. If one of those people in the leadership structure wishes to put someone else in the structure, they can do so. So if the SPL wished the ASPL to take responsibility for a couple of the patrols while he retained responsibility for the other couple, that would be within the prerogative of the SPL to do. One possible exception to this involves the Troop Guide. That position is intended as mentor/patrol leader of the New Scout Patrol. As those New Scouts get older and more experienced, the Troop Guide becomes more of a mentor and less of a patrol leader. Ultimately, the New Scout patrol can either have rotating patrol leaders or elect their own patrol leader. Troop Guide can be a very useful and strong position as it helps new Scouts get started right. 3) It can be useful to think about not what job you would like to hold but rather what you would like to DO. What would you like to do in your Troop that holding the job of JASM would enable you to do? What is it that your Scoutmaster would like you to do that holding the job of Troop Guide would enable and charter to you to do? It is exceedingly important that you and your SM be on the same page in terms of what you will be doing, otherwise one or both of you will be disappointed. 4) And to make that happen, you need to talk with your SM in a polite, friendly, non-advancement Scoutmaster Conference. Ask to talk with your SM. Find out what he or she wants you to do and why they want you to be the Troop Guide. Tell them what you want to do. See if you can get an agreement, both in terms of tasks and of timing. 5) Negotiation is a wonderful thing, both to learn and to practice. It is totally appropriate if, in a polite, friendly, non-confrontational and non-threatening way, you indicate that you would like to be JASM and ask "If I take the job of Troop Guide now and do the job that you want done, when that job is finished, will you please appoint me JASM when I turn 16?" This makes matters very clear. But you have to be prepared if, for some reason, the answer from your SM is "no." And, in that case, you need to clarify the reasons and see if you can address them. 6) JASM is commonly not a "line" position but rather is a "staff" position. (If you're a SciFi fan, read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" to clarify the difference.) The JASM is an adviser and counselor to the SPL and the other youth leaders in the Troop. Serving as a mentor to new Scouts as Troop Guide is a great way to learn about mentoring and showing your SM that you are ready to mentor the SPL when you turn 16. But don't assume that you are in the line of authority as JASM unless the SM says you are. Sometimes, the JASM is given direct responsibility in some area like equipment. That differs from Troop to Troop. 7) Your Troop is not the end of the world. If you are not happy with the opportunities in your Troop, you can try to become a leader in the OA if you are an OA member (start off as Troop OA Representative.) Or you could join a Venturing Crew and be a leader there. Growth is a matter of change and learning. You have a wonderful opportunity. If at all possible, get your Scoutmaster to join with you in this growth opportunity and work with your Scoutmaster to help you get to where you want to go. Frankly, it's doing that kind of thing that most Scoutmasters enjoy most and why they spend the time and effort to be Scoutmasters. Have a great journey!

Hello Don, I have some real sympathy for what you are saying. I have staffed Wood Badge, directed Wood Badge and staffed and directed the Regional Conference. We tell the participants and potential course directors that the ticket should represent doing a good performance in their current Scouting job. I tell participants to close their eyes and imagine where they would like their unit to be in 12-18 months. Then their ticket items should lead to that. And then occasionally I will visit a course, including a course run by someone who has listened to our Regional guidance and they want the type of "PhD thesis" ticket that you mention. I counsel with them and I get the clear indication "I hear what you are saying and that's not how I was taught. I know what I'm going to do." That may be your council's attitude. IT seems to be a council type of thing. The council has a certain style and attitude evidenced by the senior Wood Badge leadership in the council. What to do? I am going to be a heretic now. Go to Wood Badge. Plan to write a ticket which describes what you will do with your unit. If the staff gives you a lot of heat, push back a bit, then do what you need to do to get them off your back. And then .... if the items in your ticket aren't things that you want to do, then don't do them. What's the worst thing that happens. You don't finish and don't get your beads. You still have the benefit of the knowledge, skill and attitude that you got from your course. And maybe the staff will come around and/or you will send them a wake-up call. But if they aren't willing to accept a ticket that focuses strongly on your unit, I would, as a minimum, ask to talk to the Course Director and then, if necessary, to your Council Training Chairman and Council Training Advisor. Tell them of the concern that you evidenced in the first paragraph of this thread. That shouldn't be what they want to have happen.

Congratulations, guys, you've done it. You've pushed one of my really hot buttons concerning Scouting. This is a KID"S PROGRAM!!!! We are talking about a program which, by and large, is for kids 8-14 years old with some few youth who are older. When we start getting into exceedingly subtle theological distinctions and attempting to parse those distinctions in saying that some youth are welcome and others are not, I would respectfully suggest we have gone way, way, way over the line. Perhaps this is fun, perhaps it is not, but I am exceedingly hard pressed to see how it contributes to the citizenship, character and youth. Let's take some kids into the woods!

The scout is elected to ASPL for a 1/2 year term (June COH-Dec COH or vice versa) and then automatically moves up to SPL for the next 6 months.>> This is an exceedingly interesting approach. At first glance, I really like it. I might suggest that you see if you son can have one or more of those Scouts which he is encouraging to run for ASPL be appointed as Troop Instructors (if they are not) so they can get some leadership experience at the Troop level.

Hello Lisabob, By and large, the job of SPL done by a 13-14 year old is different from the job done by an older boy. The older boy has seen more and makes fewer errors but the younger Scout makes up by enthusiasm. Both are great experiences. Best of all can be if the somewhat younger boy is the SPL and the older boys are JASMs and mentors. It would be interesting to learn why this trusted adult is encouraging these younger boys to run. Does he not trust the older boys, just want more competition or something else? Is he committed to training and supporting the younger Scouts? One year terms are a bit unusual but not unheard of. I would think that a one year term for a less committed younger Scout could get ugly. It also means that the commitment by the Scout is greater. It does make life somewhat easier for the adult (less training needed) but that should not be the primary concern. In short, if you believe that your son will "catch the fire" if he is elected SPL and do what is needed, then I would say go for it. But if you believe that he will be forced to be more committed to Scouting than he wants to be, particularly for a one year term, then running for a less senior position is probably appropriate. This is fun kind of stuff as Barry says.

Hello Sprite, You raise some interesting points but there are a couple of points I would like to address. Probably most important -- I don't believe that National has ever said that previous training is not valuable or is not valid. Much the opposite. If one has ever completed Training, they are considered trained according to National guidelines. It would be a local council which would mandate or strongly advise retraining. I know that currently Wood Badge staff service requires that one have taken or previously staffed 21st Century Wood Badge. However, this is after 6 years of availability of 21st century Wood Badge so most potential staffers have had exposure to the current course. Also, on an individual leader basis, exceptions can be made. I'm not sure why you think that requiring training or updating training is for financial reasons. I don't know about your council, but my council loses money on training and expects to. The reason that update courses are often not done is that they are hard to write and do. If a new training method or new operational method is being taught, the training course is normally pretty condensed to start with . It is hard to condense further and still maintain the full "flow" and content of the course. Finally, as far as "National" not valuing and crediting previously trained leaders, where do you think that trainers at the local level come from? We don't breed trainers or drag them in from the street. They are the people who have been trained in previous methods and learn the new methods and new courses so they can use them. It certainly is possible that a particular local council may discount the value of experienced previously trained leaders. But that isn't National. It is that local council and, more specifically, the leadership of that local council.

Hello GaHillBilly, As best I understand it, Kudu's observations about BP and religion are precisely accurate.

I have at least a little sympathy for the Democrats in Florida. My memory is that the early primary was "forced" by the Republicans in the legislature over the opposition of the Democrats. But it is the Florida Democrats who have to pay for the action.

I see the opposite side of this. In our part of the country, we have a number of smaller councils, each with its own camp. There is, quite frankly, an overcapacity in camping spaces considering the total number of Scouts available in all councils. So there is poaching and atealing of campers by councils. We are expected to keep our summer camp running, losing money every year, yet many of our units quite aggressively refuse to even consider our council's camp. We have tried very hard to improve our camp quality, staff quality, etc. but we have great difficulty competing with two outstanding camps run by other councils which are the same distance away as our council's camp. Yet when closing our camp is suggested, the result resembles the scene of the angry villagers with pitchforks and firebrands out of the movie Frankenstein. So are you not supporting your council by not going to your council's camp? If you occasionally go out of council, no. If you steadfastly refuse to go, that's another matter. And in that latter case, I believe you have a strong obligation to support your council financially and to make clear that if your council then wants to close and sell the camp, you support that action. You can't have it both ways.

Hello Avery, You ask an interesting question. I would suggest that you talk to friends of yours about their religions and particularly about their clergypeople. Your friends probably have a pretty well developed BS detector. But I would say that most good clergypeople would be honest and sincere with you if you went to them and said that you were considering religion and religions and wanted to know both about their religion and about their observations of other religions. Before you consider a particularly religion, you might go to its website and read up about it. At this stage, you probably want to avoid those religions which are particularly missionary and are particularly vigorous about conversions. They can come later when your thoughts are a bit better formed. If my memory is correct, Colorado State University is in Fort Collins and University of Colorado is in Boulder. You might check out their faculties and see if there is someone who is a professor of comparative religions. They might have a course available to you or be willing to talk to you. We wish you well.

It would seem that two topics are getting confused here 1) REtraining to be considered trained 2) Mandatory training I believe that at various times, most of us have felt that mandatory training is a good idea. Personally, I am very hard pressed to be comforable with a leader of youth who is not trained. Noting that training can be completed by group training, or personal coaching, or self-study, a person who studies the material by himself or herself can still achieve the status of fully trained. Retraining can also be a good idea, agsin by group training, or personal coaching or self-study. When a new program comes out, I try to read about it and learn about it so that I can implement it. This is, to me, training through self-study. I didn't read in any of the posts that retraining would be considered mandatory for rechartering..

Hello Evmori, I truly find it sad that you are such a believer in conspiracy that you regard Avery and BDPT00 to be the same person. Perhaps you are right. If so, I have wasted a little time. No big thing. But I believe that you very likely are wrong. I can tell you that I have been asked the exact questions Avery asking by a several extremely sincere Scouts personally. And I know that in some parts of the country and some units, even asking those questions would have the Scout branded an "atheist" and summarily removed from Scouting. I choose to believe that Avery is sincere. I believe that giving such a poster a very large benefit of the doubt is in line with "courteous, kind and friendly."

Hello Avery, Excellent, thoughtful discussion. Thank you. Most of us who are posting have a bit of an advantage over you. We have all, at one time or another, been 14 and have seen the other side. You have not (yet,) That doesn't make your thoughts and concerns any less valid or any less significant to you or us, it just gives us a bit of perspective that you don't yet have. I would say that, at one time or another, almost all of us have questioned religion and have felt agnostic. (You know that you are agnostic, not that you are atheist.) You have not said that you are certain that there is no deity or higher power (that would be an atheist) you have said you are uncertain. In my life which now is in its 7th decade, I have met precisely one person I would call an atheist. So in addressing an agnostic, I say that either there is a deity or there is not. If not, then the discussion is irrelevant. But if there is a deity, presumably that deity has made you what he or she wishes you to be and has made you at this time agnostic. This is for a reason. I would argue this deity wishes you, at this time in your life, to explore religions, consider yourself and your beliefs, By doing that, and clearly you are, in my opinion you are doing your "Duty to God." If you came before me in a Board of Review, I would have no problems. As far as bisexual feelings, I understand that those are extremely common for persons who are 14. As time proceeds, your sexuality and sexual orientation will become more clear. However, I would respectfully suggest that, at age 14, you should not be involved in sexual activity, be it with males or females. You absolutely should not be involved in sexual activity in the context of Scouting, nor should anybody else. Your feelings can be whatever they are and that is something you cannot control. However, you can control your actions. You have plenty of time in your life to be sexually active. There really is no hurry. As far as whether you should stay in Scouting, that is your business. If it isn't fun and isn't rewarding, then I would consider very carefully if you want to continue. However, if I may make a suggestion, I would simply tell my parents, etc. that I do not enjoy it. Your religions beliefs and your sexual orientation are your business and, particularly at the age of 14, I would not go on record as to either. In that way, you maintain your option to return to Scouting at some time in the future if you so choose. Keep your personal things personal and your private things private. That, by the way, is all that Scouting asks. As far as a "mandatory" church service, please allow me to quote from a very recently published Unit of Supplemental Training on the BSA National Web Site www.scouting.org "Attendance at an Interfaith Service Participation at an interfaith service should be a voluntary, uplifting experience for Scouts and leaders. It should be a friendly, welcoming experience for all. There should never be coercion or criticism concerning participation or nonparticipation in an interfaith service. Some religions do not support the participation of their members in Interfaith Services. Some religions obligate their members to participation in a specific religious service; consequently, participation in an interfaith service may not meet this obligation. Some individuals may choose to participate in the interfaith service and also in a service of their own faith" Needless to say, not all religions are welcoming to persons of all faiths. I know Trevorum personally and his religion, Unitarian Universalism, is particularly open and welcoming. You might consider it. If you choose to stay in Scouting, and obviously we hope you do, we hope that your personal journey goes well and is rewarding. But if you choose to leave, we hope that your time in Scouting has been enjoyable. We would like to think that Scouting has helped make you the kind of person who can ask the type of questions that you are asking. Either way, we wish you well and hope that we have treated you with respect and in accordance with the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

Hello David, I'm not sure that your question has been explicitly answered. There is, to my best knowledge, no "statute of limitations" on training awards and whenever you document that you have met the requirements, you can receive the award. There are some limitations on some other awards: 1) The most often encountered is that one cannot meet Eagle Scout requirements after age 18. Also, the Board of Review is to be held within 3 months after the boy's 18th birthday. Between 3 months and 6 months, an explanation from the Scout Executive is required for the delay. Longer than 6 months, permission from the National Council is needed. In some few cases, this permission has been granted several decades after the 18th birthday. 2) Wood Badge tickets must be completed within 18 months of completing the course. Additional time up to 6 months may be granted by the Scout Executive 3) National Court of Honor awards (Heroism Award, Honor Medal, Medal of Merit,) must be submitted within 6 months of the incident or action. Additional time requires a letter of explanation from the Scout Executive. Absent some such explicit limitation, I would argue that there is no limitation.

One interesting thing that I've found about switchbacks and that is that the male sizes may have "vanity sizing." With any other trousers, my waist is 36 or even 38 if I breathe out. When I tried the Large Switchbacks (supposedly 36-38) they essentially fell off my hips. The Medium (supposedly 32-24) fit quite well. I really need a 31 inch leg, but bought the 30s. They look fine and work well. As far as looking sharp, fitting well, etc. I don't believe that is a significant factor for today's youth Think of the jeans falling down around one's knees. I think that the switchbacks are adequate and don't bring on the "YUCK, SCOUT TROUSERS" comments from youth. I agree that the Switchbacks are stunningly better than blue jeans. To me, blue jeans with a Scout shirt are as discordant as setting off a klaxon in church. They are just shouting to everybody around "I don't care what the BSA says, I refuse to be in full, well coordinated uniform."