NeilLup

This op-ed article about Vee Sookikian appeared in the Boston Globe. Vee recently completed a Philmont Trek at age 81. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/16/guts_and_glory/ The author of the article is Derrick Jackson who is a nationally syndicated columnist and Scoutmster in Cambridge MA. Derrick's wife is Dr. Michelle Holmes who is Council Training Chairman and a 4 bead Wood Badger.

As someone who never had a child in the Cub Scout or Boy Scout programs, I am very sympathetic to the "no kids in the program" side. When people ask me why I'm in Scouting, I say that, in addition to other things, you really find out what it means to be an Eagle Scout when your daugher tells you that whe is dating one (and recently became engaged Another reason that I give is that today's Scouts are the ones who will pay our Social Security. But the real reason is that I enjoy it and enjoy the adults and youth that I come in contact with. It's fun and rewarding. I know plenty of "older" leaders who no longer have kids in the program or never did. Many are highly effective. One of the ways that I most judge effectiveness is whether they recruit younger leaders and how much the younger leaders and youth like having them around and want them around. Here, for example, is a story about an 81 year old leader from our council who just completed a Philmont Trek. http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/16/guts_and_glory/

I've started to write a few times and haven't finished because I just don't handle this kind of thing well. You can probably get much better counsel from others. When I was a SM in the AF, we had four Troop, call them A, B, C and D and three packs, A, B and D. I was the Scoutmaster of Troop A. There were formal "feeder pack" relationships for the other three Troops and the three Packs. Pack A fed into Troop C, Pack B fed into Troop D and Pack D fed into Troop B. We were out of luck. Upon checking I found that a few years earlier, there had been four Packs. However the one that was structured to feed out Troop, Pack C, had gone defunct. I suggested a restructuring of the feeder Pack relationship. The other Troops saw absolutely no reason to change things. Anyone who has played the "Game of Life -- win all you can" will understand perfectly. I spoke to the Commissioner. He was very sympathetic but said that he had no right to change the "formal" relationship when the other three Troops were totally happy with it. If some boy really wanted to come to our Troop they, of course, could but the clearcut assumption was that they would go where they were structured. to go. We recruited hard among non Cub Scouts and created a high level of visibility. We held our own but it was tough. Not that any of this is of help to you. Just that I feel your pain.

Hello gwd, I believe that at the National Council, if the requirements are met, the award is essentially automatic. So the most likely problem was at your local council where the script probably went like this: "What's this thing?" (followed by the sound of the application hitting the trash can.) If your committee and PLC still have copies of the paperwork that were sent in, I would resend them and suggest that they follow up to make sure they are sent to National, received at National and processed. There really should be no problem as I don't believe that any judgement is involved.

Having been a District Chairman 3 different times, I would say the following: Recruit, recruit, recruit, recruit. You need to take an accurate assessment of your District Committee, identify where strengthening is needed and get on with it. Ideally you have a solid performer in each job and a backup ready go if something happens to them. Ideally, District level leaders remain in their position about 3 years and then someone else gets a chance at the job. And ideally, there is no double teaming of a Scoutmaster, for example, also serving as Camping Chairman or OA adviser. Then your job is helping them do their job, seeing that they get training, keeping them happy and productive, etc. You also get to do fun stuff like showing the flag, presenting Eagle awards, etc. Each District is different. Your key 3 should meet frequently to assess Your district and see what needs to be done now. But life is so much simpler if you have a full District Committee or close to it.

The money from NESA dues does indeed help support Eagle Scout scholarships. In fact the recent Eagle Scout search will, I understand, contribute more than $500,000 to the Eagle Scout scholarship fund. When you have the money, blade, get a NESA life membership. As a NESA scholarship winner, you're pretty special.

Hello GaHillBilly, I can feel your frustration. As with many things in Scouting, if there is a "right" answer, there is no guarantee that we will find it. And if what we try doesn't work, there's no guarantee that another approach would have worked any better. However, I tell Scouts the following and will respectfully suggest it to you. The Scout Oath and Law set the standard for us. The Oath and Law do not obligate us to succeed to be good Scouts. The standard is "On my honor, I will do MY BEST." If you do your best, you will have met the standard. You may not succeed. Society penalizes that severely, but you will still have met the standard for being a good Scout. So do what you think best but keep your finger on the pulse and be prepared to take quick corrective action if that seems appropriate.

On another list to which I belong, there is a story of a man who is getting his Eagle at age 50. The story is here http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/custom/today/bal-to.eagle19aug19,0,7356468.story It's a neat story but, to summarize, he gave his finished paperwork to his Scoutmaster who never submitted it. But here is a key section from the article. "Some say there comes a moment in a boy's life when he must make a choice - a choice that defines his character, or reveals it. For better and worse, Bill Ehmann approached his biggest disappointment as he felt a Scout should. As he remembers it, he submitted all his paperwork. But the Scoutmaster, for reasons of his own, failed to submit it promptly. The Scout Law says a boy should be both obedient and cheerful - trusting those above him, never grousing at hardship. Ehmann never followed up. That Scoutmaster from long ago, when reached this week, remembered Billy Ehmann. And what he recalls is a shy boy who had made some grammatical errors in his report, been told of the problem and failed to return with corrections. "I can't chase after every boy," William Endres, 80, said from his home in Parkville. "An Eagle Scout has to take the reins. I wish he had." They've never discussed the matter. Jonathan Brown, an Eagle Scout himself, guesses the truth lies somewhere in the middle. "You have a Scoutmaster who's a stickler, which is his right. You have a boy who's quiet. My guess? It's a tragedy of miscommunication." Note the comment from from Mr. Endres who was Mr. Ehrmann's Scoutmaster "I can't chase after every boy. An Eagle Scout has to take the reins." Those of us who earned Eagle Scout back then would note that things were different then. Standerson, I suspect that's about when you got your Eagle award. Mine was a bit earlier.

" How do you know the internet has current and correct information? " Do you mean the BSA official website?

Hello John, I think you synopsized that question from the BSA web site a bit too much. The entire question is: "Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined? Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if: 1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current). 2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons. 3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on). The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." To me, the key point is that it is the unit leader who is responsible for ensuring that Scout is fulfilling the obligations of the assigned leadership position, not the Scout who is responsible retrospectively for convincing the SM and the Board of Review that he did the job. The Scout would seem to have a perfect argument in saying "I was in the job, you didn't remove me, I met the requirements." If the Scout is not removed from his position, it would appear that the only way that the Scout might not have met the requirements were if he were never appointed or elected to a position in the first place. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with this policy, but it does seem to be the policy and to be pretty doggone clear.

Hello Donna, You can in my council. I'd probably ask you to consider taking the most current training since things have changed, but I'd certainly see that you got credit for your tenure and performance. We're a bit of a long drive from Alaska, though. Welcome back. We're glad to have you and hope you have a wonderful time.

"The more information that can be gathered in this situation, the more accurate the final decision will be. We are trying to find out what, if any, action the young man has taken in order to get the merit badge. I checked my previous posts, didn't see anything to suggest I was trying to be underhanded or trying to back door the young man. " Hello, I didn't say you were and I do apologize if I gave that impression. However, I might ask if you want to know what Camping merit badge counselor he is contacting, why not just ask him? To an outsider, it appears that you are checking up on him rather than working with him. Perhaps that's what you want to do.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

At the risk of pouring molten potassium upon the troubled waters: The Troop certainly can turn the Scout down for not performing his Position of Responsibility. However, 1) If they turn him down for this and 2) IF the Scout then demands a Board of Review (as is his right) and 3) IF the Board of Review then turns the Scout down (they may not) and 4) IF the Scout then appeals the Board of Review turn down to the local council and 5) IF the council review turns the Scout down and 6) If the Scout then appeals to the National Council 7) I believe that the National Council will overturn the turn down and grant the Scout his Eagle If the Scout chooses to appeal, there are three stages. The turn down stands only if it is upheld at each of the three stages. Will he appeal? You have to answer that. One thing that is guaranteed is that if he is required to appeal, he will likely end up with extremely negative feelings toward the Troop and possibly toward Scouting. If he is passed, it may trivialize the Eagle. It's rather lose/lose as far as the Scout is concerned. If you are looking to benefit Scouts (as contrasted with making the adults feel good), then the only Scouts that might benefit by turning this boy down are the other boys in the Troop. And what their reaction will be if he appeals and the appeal is upheld again is something you need to answer. It can, on occasion, be prudent to step back and look at the forest rather than the trees. How does each choice contribute to the citizenship, character and fitness of youth? Camping merit badge is another matter. I might ask why your ASM is checking with counselors. Are you trying to talk them into not working with him or into being particularly difficult? Does he have a signed "blue card?" Who was the counselor that he was assigned to work with at that time? Does anybody even remember or have records? But if he doesn't have Camping before his 18th birthday, he's out of luck. Has he had his Scoutmaster Conference yet? He does NOT have to do that after everything else and he does not need to "pass" the Scoutmaster Conference. I believe that the requirement says that he take part in a Scoutmaster Conference. Arguably, this meeting you are about to have, which includes the Scoutmaster, is a Scoutmaster Conference.

" Well, I didn't mean to bring up a world of controversy - I just thought I could get some opinions and check with my council..." A fine plan. On this forum, however, you would get controversy saying that the sun is shining particularly if there were an official BSA publication on sun shining.

Hello nldscout, With respect, I am a bit puzzled and surprised by what you have written. I am of the impression that waivers to the age 18 requirement for COMPLETING REQUIREMENTS can only be granted by the National Council and those are incredibly difficult to obtain. Absent a disability, the Scout must have been totally unable to control the situation. And waiting until age 17 1/2 and then having an accident or the like doesn't impress the committee. They will ask "Why did you wait until 17 1/2." Now waivers for the BOARD OF REVIEW after 18 1/4 if all requirements are completed by age 18 are another matter. Those are fairly routine. In this case, I think we are talking about a waiver for completing requirements. I do believe that's National Council stuff.

""You may find out that the Scout has held a position of responsibility or has good reason to think that he has." We have one ASM whose only job is run Troopmaster and keep records. My feeling is that the troop records are very accurate. During the Committee meeting, it was brought up that a leadership position had been offered but he did nothing with the opportunity. " " Oh my! Based on this, he very likely has met the requirement. There have some clarifications coming out of the National Advancement group making it very clear that there can be no performance requirements put on the Position of Responsibility, only that the Scout hold the position. For POR credit to stop, the Scout must be formally removed from the position. If the conversation went something like this: SM: Would you like to be a Troop Instructor Scout: Sure Then arguably, he holds the position from that moment. Until and unless he is formally removed from that position, either explicitly or because all officers stand down at a certain time and are reappointed, arguably he has held the position and met the requirement. Upon appeal, he might well win this one. You may not want to hear this and may disagree. But I believe that is the current interpretation.

"hanks for the information, I may ask our District Commissinoer. I've nominated this guy umpteen times with members from our troop, I'm not exactly sure why he hasn't been picked for any of the big awards. " Hello Uncas, Having served as selection committee member and having nominated people, I would suggest that you talk in a polite and friendly manner with the selection commitee chairman. Mention that you had nominated XXXXX and ask if the nomination needed additional information in any particular area to be strengthened and be successful. By and large, these nominations fall into one of a few categories: 1) Selected this year 2) Not selected this year, but easily could have been. Fully qualified now 3) Not selected this year but if they continue to do things and contribute will meet the standards in the future 4) Not selected this year. If they don't do qualitatively more than they have been, they likely will never be selected. The chairman should be able to tell you into which of these groups the person falls and what additional information would strengthen the application. I have also found that updating and nominating year after year ultimately is successful. Don't let the committee be lazy. They may not be willing to tell you anything but most often, they will be. You don't want to know why YYY was picked and your candidate was not, you want to know how to present information to strengthen the case for your candidate. You also can try to find out who is on the committee and talk to them before the selections. If they don't know your candidate, you can help by providing accurate information.

Honestly, I'm not sure if one can work on several training awards in different program elements simultaneously from a tenure point of view. I would think that one can if one is multiple registered in different program areas. I do know that tenure can be retrospective and does not need to be completed after training is taken. I know that I qualified for the Scouter Training Award immediately upon completing training as I had completed 3 years tenure as asst. Scoutmaster prior to taking training. So I would go back in his record and submit the progress record based on past tenure. As far as District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver, in many, many cases, people do not receive those recognitions because of not being nominated. There is nothing to lose. Get the nomination forms, get his record in depth (you may need to ask him), write it up and submit it. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Hello acco, My understanding is that if a boy has completed First Class Scout in a Boy Scout Troop, he can then earn Star, Life and Eagle Scout and Eagle palms as a member of a Venturing Crew. This does not mean that the Scout is, for example, completing his Position of Responsibility as a Crew Member and then having Scoutmaster's Conference, Board of Review, etc. in the Troop although that is a possibility. Rather, it means that the earning of the ranks is done in the Crew. The Scoutmaster's Conference is with the Crew Advisor. The Board of Review is held (if your District/Council does it this way) with the Crew Committee. Six months active service as a Venturer could be required although I would imagine that six months service as a Boy Scout would count for the requirement also. I would say that you have the option of accepting the Venturer Position of Responsibility but would not be required to do so. I would think that you are in your rights to say that if he wants to use a Venturer Position of Responsibility, he should go for Eagle in the Crew which he can do. After all, if he did six months as Crew Officer, he also was active for six months in the Crew. It might get a bit tricky if the relationship were somewhat hostile and he wanted to use three months as a Troop Officer and three months as a Crew Officer but even that would, in my opinion, meet the requirement. It would need to be worked out in a courteous, friendly and kind manner.

Oy! I greatly respect you for holding this meeting. This is the right way to do things even if they end up very unpleasant. If you think that they will be VERY unpleasant, you might also invite a knowledgeable and skillful Commissioner or representative of your District Advancement Committee to be there as impartial witness. You may find out that the Scout has held a position of responsibility or has good reason to think that he has. In that one can meet the requirement by being Historian, Scribe, Librarian, Quartermaster, or Troop Instructor in addition to the more obvious jobs like SPL, ASPL and PL, he may believe that he has been in one of those jobs. He may have been told something previously that would lead him to believe that he was in the job. Also, note that he is not required to have served in that position of responsibility in the time immediately prior to his Eagle Board of Review. Rather, doing it at any time after being a Life Scout meets the requirement. The six months of service does not need to be continuous and does not all need to be in the same position. It could be quite a challenge if it comes to him saying "I thought I was in this Position of Responsibility" and the Troop saying "Officially, according to Troop records, you weren't." This could very legitimately be a reason for appeal if he is turned down for not having met the Position of Responsibility requirement. He may believe that his time in a Position of Responsibility prior to being a Life Scout counts for Eagle. You need to show him the requirements in writing at that point. As far as Camping Merit Badge, I find it inconceivable that a boy in a halfway active Troop would make Life Scout and not have 20 days and nights of camping including one summer camp. If he did the summer camp (ever), that would count and leave about 14 or 15 days and nights. If your Troop goes on Friday-Sunday campouts, that means that prior to being age 15, he would only need to have gone on about 2 campouts per year to make the 15 days and nights. If he is an OA member, he already has 15 days and nights of camping and only needs 5 more. Again, those days and nights of camping can be met any time after joining the BSA as a Scout. He likely had plenty more than that when he was 10, 11 and 12. However, at this point, I would suggest that the counselor will want much more than "I went on lots of campouts when I was younger." Meeting the rest of the Camping Merit Badge requirements may be a bit tough but far from impossible in the next month and a half. You may even find that he (or his mother) think that he has the Camping Merit Badge. I would suggest that you not start off in a hostile manner but rather pleasantly introduce yourself as the new Advancement Chairman and since he has completed his project, you wanted to review the requirements with him to make sure that they were all in good shape and he was ready to go forward. Put an Eagle Scout application in front of him or a printed set of the requirements. Let him run through the requirements one by one and verify that he has met the requirement. Start off with the ones that he clearly has done. When his mother starts to talk and it is virtually certain that she will, stop the discussion and, in a polite and friendly way, tell her that it will be his Eagle Scout and he will be the one going before the Eagle Board of Review so will she please let him describe and substantiate that he has met the requirement. You may need to do this several times and it may get a bit pointed. If you you end up concluding that he has not met one or more of the requirements, particularly if you conclude that it is impossible for him to do so before his 18th birthday, they (she) may very well and legitimately ask why he wasn't informed of this long ago. To this, and here it becomes a matter of personal style, I would probably say "you were." I would point out that the requirements have been essentially the same since he joined the BSA and they are available in BSA printed publications and on the web. He made Life Scout and so knows how to find, read and meet BSA requirements. Eagle requirements are very similar to Life Scout requirements, only more merit badges, more service, etc. If there were ever any questions, he could easily contact the Troop and resolve them. However, this is for Eagle Scout which is a very, very special honor and the expectation is that the Scout will take a lot of initiative. He frankly hasn't been around much and Scouting expects (don't say the Troop expects) that the initiative is with the Scout to do the requirements and see that the requirements are met. Not the Troop and not the Scout's parents. It's his Eagle Scout, not theirs. Expect his mother at this point to say "He's really busy and has a lot of things to do." An appropriate response might be "I'm sure that's true. Every 17year old who has the potential to become an Eagle Scout is pretty busy. But some choose to do things in Scouting and earn the Eagle and some choose to prioritize their time in other ways and don't get the Eagle. It's the Scout's choice." At that point, the discussion of options is appropriate. It's up to you to negotiate how far you are willing to go. If you conclude that it is impossible for him to meet the requirements, offer him the option to appeal to the National Council or request additional time from the National Council to complete the requirements. The request will not be granted but good faith and the Scout Oath and Law require this in my opinion. In preparing this appeal/request, he needs to be told that he would need to substantiate that factors beyond his control have kept him from meeting the requirements. If you end up concluding that he cannot make Eagle Scout, be very courteous, friendly and kind, congratulate him for his time in Scouting, thank him for all that he has done and tell him that many, many Scouts have not made Eagle Scout and still have had a great time. He won't be listening at this point but you have to say it. Then, I would recommend immediately summarizing your conclusions in a letter to him copy to his parents, copy to the SM and CC, copy to the COR if your chartered organization is in any way active and possibly copy to the district advancement committee. If you end up concluding that it is impossible for him to make Eagle, again congratulate him for what he has accomplished. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.(This message has been edited by NeilLup)

Do your older Scouts acknowledge that there is a problem? Their parents don't but do they? I might suggest that if they want to be Troop Guide or Troop Instructor, you hold a special training weekend for them. To be considered for these positions, they must attend. The weekend would be a very carefully designed outdoor skills weekend. The objective would be to give them a concentrated dose of outdoor skills.

"If A then B If not A then B There is no way that both of those statements can be true simultaneously. If BSA discriminates, then it loses members If Scouts Canada doesn't discriminate, it loses members (even moreso than BSA) " Hello Fgoodwin, I would suggest that the comparison is only valid if the programs, organizational structures, markets, market penetration, etc. are identical or close to it. Otherwise, one can draw some very wrong conclusions. Or to put it another way, BSA and Scouts Canada are not both A.

I addition to "helicopter parents" I've recently heard "snowplow parents." Helicopter parents hover around in the background ready to swoop in if their child runs into any kind of difficulty. Snowplow parents blast any kind of difficulty out of the way before the child even has a chance to encounter it.

Hello Eagle92: Are Brotherhood ceremonies held by your Lodge or by your Chapter? Another thing you can do is hold frequent Brotherhood ceremonies at the Chapter level. Make it convenient for someone to seal their membership if they so choose. As far as your super Troop, if you want to crack them, you may need to have the SM agree, for a couple of years, to take a carful of candidates up to the Ordeal. If possible, I would have that SM announce as he prepares the Scouts for the election that he plans to take that carful of new candidates to the Ordeal, that he really encourages Scouts to be OA members if elected and that he very much hopes that his Scouts will stand for election and will accept election if it happens. If the SM won't do that, then you probably will continue to have problems with the "super Troop." If so, don't beat yourself up. The OA is a tool to help units. If a particular unit doesn't want it, so be it. Provide the tool to the units and Scouts that do want it.

Hello Scouter&mom Have you checked out the on-line Den Chief training on the BSA On Line training Center. It is targeted at a boy level and is, in my opinion, pretty good. http://olc.scouting.org/courses/dc/base.html