NE-IV-88-Beaver

pohsuwed - Here's another one to add to your list: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/6590437.html Nathaniel Buffington of The Woodlands, TX

In my youth, all of our Scoutmasters were addressed as Mr. (last name). In the troop that I have been with for the last 32 years, all of the Scoutmasters have been addressed as Mr. (first name). I recently had a discussion with one of my 40 year old Eagles about dropping the Mister in front of my name. He told me that it just didn't sound right. That's okay, we can still be friends!

In the ticket counselor training that I received covering the transition between Wood Badge and WB21C, that's the way it was explained to me. I certainly questioned it because I wouldn't have signed off on it before. It was all about making the candidates "feel good" about themselves. In the future, if they were satisfied, we needed to be as well. Almost made me feel that we were now being enlisted as nannies rather than counselors.

Vicki - Clarification, please? Received a phone call about three weeks ago from my WB candidate, "It's rained twice when I had my activity planned and we had to cancel. I don't think that we're going to be able to get it in." My responce - "Well, how long do you have to complete your ticket?" "I've got until next April to finish." Me - "Well, it sounds like you should have plenty of time to reschedule and get it in." "Well, I don't know. I guess I can talk to the Cubmaster and see if we can still do it sometime this fall." Doesn't quite sound like an example of learned leadership skills to me. If he had said, "I think that I've done my best to get it in and I'm comfortable with that.", we would have been done with that ticket item. I have a problem with that philosophy.

"So it might not be that da problem is with WB21C other than that it gives the perception of Highest Level of Training to folks who aren't really ready to lead." "WB is held as the pinnacle of scouter education" or "My perception is that WB is the pinnacle training of an outdoor program". Is the central problem really that WB21C should not be considered the "Highest Level of Training" or as the "pinnacle of scouter education"? Are they really ready for that "mountain top experience"? It seems to me that many of the people currently taking WB21C could benefit greatly from spending more time in the trenches, gaining Scouting experience and taking advantage of some of the other training available. WB21C is being encouraged for Scouters with little or no experience and prerequisites are waived for a large percentage of the attendees. This is not to say that there were not Scouters taking the old course that didn't fall into the same category, but it certainly seemed to me that there were a lot fewer of them. As a WB ticket counselor, I continue to find it hard to reconcile the differences between the two courses and feel good about it. I find it difficult to understand how just thinking about getting the job done, and not actually getting it done, shows leadership skills or ability. Oh well, as long as the WB candidate feels good about themselves! But, it ain't gonna go back to what it was, so us old-timers need to get over it, accept it, and figure out what the new "mountain top experience" should be. I used to be a Beaver, a good ol' Beaver too, but now I guess I'm just an old fuddy duddy!!

Did it last year from the East Coast. Flew to Denver, drove down to Pikes Peak / Royal Gorge, up to the Tetons / Yellowstone, over to Cody, on to Custer and the Black Hills, Mt. Rushmore, Crazy Horse, the Badlands, Wounded Knee, back to Rocky Mountain NP and on to Denver for the return trip. Rented Toyota Sienna vans for the driving part, lots of room for people and gear inside and great mileage besides (22 - 24 mpg in the mountains with a full load). Airlines were generally allowing two checked bags per person so each person had one canvas duffle containing their packs and other gear and one of troop gear. Daypacks were carry-on of course. Took propane stoves and bought disposable bottles out there (gave away the extras before returning). Bought styrofoam ice chests and gave them away as well. Bought all of our food out there, look up Super Walmart's on-line ahead of time for the best prices. Do thorough planning and you can have a great trip. Enjoy yourself and watch out for the bears!!

sandspur, A minor correction: ELCA = Evangelical Lutheran Church in America WELCA = Women of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America WLCS = Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Boy, those acronyms can really be a problem! ELCA, WLCS and LCMS (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) all professing to be of a Lutheran faith but with little commonality in their beliefs and practices.

Sorry to disagree but it doesn't make it okay for this member of the ELCA. I find that I apparently have less in common with the policy makers in the ELCA each year. According to the information that I have received from my church, this initiative was approved by a two-thirds majority: "from Minneapolis, Minnesota, from the Eleventh Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, where voting members adopted the social statement, "Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust" by a vote of 676 (66.67 percent) to 338 (33.33 percent), exactly the two-thirds vote needed for the statement's adoption. Just one more negative vote would have tipped the percentage, and the statement would have been defeated. Social statements in the ELCA have no authority as such, but are guides to the thinking of the church on a particular topic. The statement covers many areas of sexuality's place in theology, in the family, and in society at large. Most of the statements in "Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust" express convictions widely shared by Lutheran Christians." This battle has been going on for years with the inevitability seemingly getting a little closer each year. As with most prolonged battles, eventually a number of people just get tired of it and give in. To me, it is amazing that BSA has continued to stick up for their principles for as many years as they have, at the implied cost of membership and finances that have been suggested. On the other hand, just maybe they have gained (or kept) an unknown number of members and raised finances just because of their stances!

My problem with the Centennial shirts is that they were apparently designed with plumbers in mind. The ones that I have seen , the shirt tail comes out every time you bend over. That is a result of the short straight-cut shirt tail. I think that is one of the design flaws that needs to be fixed before they gain wide acceptance.

I agree with scoutldr that the pictured shirt is the old ODL shirt. Zoom in on the U.S. flag and I think that you can see that it's embroidered rather than the new style. I recently bought a new one of these poly/wool shirts on eBay. It does have directions for machine washing but states that it is "not intended for industrial laundry use". The one that I bought was also "Made in the U.S.A." rather than imported. Catalog no. 90194. Makes for a rather nice looking shirt!

Foxy Den Mom - Internet research provides the following information on this suit - Rasmussen v. Central Florida Council Boy Scouts of America (M.D.Fla. 3/6/2008) United States District Court Middle District of Florida CONCLUSION Based on the foregoing, the Motion of the Central Council, Boy Scouts of America, Inc. for Summary Judgment is GRANTED except the Counts concerning the accessibility of the Trading Post. These Counts concerning the accessibility of the Trading Post remain pending before the Court. Full details: http://classweb.gmu.edu/jkozlows/RPLR/080306b.pdf

It has been interesting going back and reading many of the entries in this old thread. It seems that many more units have been unimpressed with their level of commissioner service than have been impressed. That's a shame! I know that over the years, I have seen good commissioners and "name only", MIA or invisible commissioners. Most councils offer a commissioner college / university program for training as well as Fast Start for Commissioners training being available online. A well trained, reachable Unit Commissioner can be a much better source of information, directly related to your unit, than any forum can provide. As with most District programs, their effectiveness begins at the top - a good Key Three (4,5 or 6, depending on your district) will push for an effective commissioner service program. A good District Commissioner with effective ADC's will select, train and drive a team of UC's to deliver an effective commissioner service program to the units in their district. Is it easy? No. Will everything go smoothly? No. Will everyone do the job that they have volunteered (been recruited) to do? Probably not! Will some UC's have to be replaced? Probably! Is an effective commissioner service program worthwhile? Definitely! Having served as a UC, ADC and District Commissioner (as well as a District Chairman) in the past, I know that there are many good UC's out there doing their jobs, serving their units and districts well. Let's hear it for these guys! If you have one of the good guys, thank him the next time you see him or her - better yet, pick up the phone or email them now, letting them know that you appreciate their service and friendship!!

Excerpt from 2010 Jamboree Staff Guide (Chapter 2, page 10): What to Bring Personal Equipment and Uniforming The national jamboree committee is anxious to reduce excessive expenditure for jamboree uniforms. Those specified here are the same as are used by the participants in regular unit activities. Special jamboree troop numbers are optional. There is no requirement for participants or staff to wear the new uniforms introduced in 2008. That's pretty clear and concise and should eliminate any confusion for jamboree staff.

The "100 % Satisfaction Guarantee" was definitely in effect last year. Bought a pair of switchbacks the previous year, used them for about 10 months and had some stitching start coming out around the seams. Took them back for a new pair before they completely unraveled. They were exchanged without a hitch. No receipt, no problem! What a deal! Was pleasantly surprised!

I have not been involved with a pack for many years but was involved with implementing and overseeing Scout Accounts for my troop for many years. I would encourage you to keep your accounts "pure" with income only from fundraisers. If you allow parents to deposit funds into the account it presents an entirely different set of problems, i.e. - you must be set up to at least track and refund this portion of the account should the youth leave Scouting. By setting it up to share fund raising income only, you can basically set up any rules that you want for dispersal. My troop follows pretty much the same setup that others have mentioned. A percentage of the income (increasing percentage based on higher level of sales to encourage participation) goes into an account which can be used by the Scout to pay dues, trip fees, summer camp fees, or for high adventure trips. They can also be used to purchase uniforms, or to buy hiking boots, sleeping bags, tents, etc. by presenting a sales slip for reimbursement to the treasurer. If the boy chooses to leave Scouting, the balance in his account reverts back into the general troop account. It is fairly simple to maintain these accounts in any spreadsheet or accounting system. The most important thing is to be sure that anyone running a fundraiser recognizes the need for accurate record keeping and that your files are updated promptly and kept up-to-date. Scout accounts can be a very effective means to allow all of your Scouts to be able to participate on an equal footing. It allows the disadvantaged to participate in many activities that they would not otherwise be able to. Over the years, many of our boys have used these funds to pay for Philmont or other high adventure trips as well as to possibly help fund their Eagle projects.

Having been a visitor to all of 'em since 1981, the information that you have received is accurate but the percentages are probably a little low. 99 % is probably closer to the mark. Your boys will not be able to participate in any of the scheduled activities. The participants have paid big bucks to do that. They will be able to walk through the general exhibit areas, attend the arena show(s) and engage in perhaps the largest event there - patch trading. With that said, it's still a great place to visit, and to do it in the Centennial year, it has to provide memories that they'll cherish.

Forum readers can pickup more from Wayne on a new link: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=243496 Another thread concerning Whitewater can be read at: http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=243527 BSA appears to be going into the whitewater business as plans progress on National Scouting Center in WV. "CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- The Boy Scouts of America will buy a 10,600-acre site in Fayette County where the organization plans to build a "high-adventure base" beside the New River Gorge National River park, scout leaders said Monday." http://www.wvgazette.com/News/200906290562?page=1&build=cache

nldscout - I didn't receive an inappropriate email from waynepjh. The several that I received have been well thought out and were to give me additional information and to clarify the facts that he first presented. I think that we have someone here who is truly concerned about something that he sees as a real problem - and it is or we wouldn't continue to hear of these incidences. He is obviously still upset about an accident that didn't have to happen and a role that he was forced to play in a rescue attempt. I give him a lot of credit for his concern about our kids!!

Have had a PM from Wayne which clarified some information that was easily confused. He is a 35 year old and has worked professionally on the river for 18 years. He says that he has guided on rivers all over the world and that this is one of the worst obstacles that he has ever seen. When he spoke of "more kids would of died", he wasn't referring to this particular accident but of other accidents that he has seen. He has apparently seen a lot of inexperienced people do a lot of stupid stuff on the river and, rightly so, is frustrated by what he has seen. A lot of the groups that he has seen get into trouble are Scouts groups whose leaders are obviously not exercising due diligence in their float trip preparation. Wayne wants the Scout leaders to stop this gross negligence before there is a similar occurrence. How could anyone not agree with him? The question is what steps can we take. Obviously one answer would be to only take trips like this under the supervision of professional guides. I know that is the only way that I would do it. Should National mandate that whitewater rafting be only done under the supervision of professional guides? I wouldn't have a problem at all with that. Should local councils do a better job of educating leaders about Safety Afloat? Definitely! Hopefully there are warning signs posted at put-in spots along this section of the river warning that Three Oar Deal is not a rapids but is a dangerous obstacle to be avoided at all costs, regardless of water level. Obviously, this was a nasty accident and Wayne, being one of the guides rendering aid, has every right to be emotional. We can all sympathize with him and spread the word to do-it-right whenever we hear that someone is planning a whitewater trip or any trip on the water, for that matter! Safety first, the river doesn't always give you a second chance!

U.S. Forest Service - Bridger-Teton National Forest - Teton Division - Snake River Highlights - Notable Water Features: 3.1 Three Oar-Deal (II,V) At high flows (>12,000 cfs), the hole at Three Oar-deal is possibly the most dangerous on the river. As the river turns to the right, the main current flows over a sandstone ledge protruding from the left, creating a huge and potentially deadly reversal. This unassuming ledge has been the scene of a few horror stories and drowning incidents. The reversal can be easily avoided by maintaining an inside line on the right throughout the turn. At low flows, the danger diminishes as the hole disappears and an innocent looking, partially submerged ledge takes its place. The above states that the reversal is easily avoidable by following a certain line. Haven't been there, don't know for sure - but these descriptions are normally fairly accurate and are widely used by those planning float trips (part of Safety Afloat). waynepjh - You keep implying that a boy was killed - FP: "A boy scout leader took his troop into this hole and killed one boy", SP: "If professional river guides had not floated by and rescued kids from this hole more kids would of died." According to all of the information that I can find, none of the Boy Scouts even went into the water. Four adult leaders were thrown into the water. Tragically one of them, a 50 year old experienced whitewater rafter, drowned. To those of us who have accepted the responsibility for other people's children over the years, this was a tragedy yes, but nothing like it would have been to have lost one of the Scouts. I understand your concern as I have wound up in the water myself on occasion, the worst time from a raft steered by a professional guide. I have avoided returning to that particular river. BSA emphasizes specialized training for all high adventure activities so that we are looking out for our charges. I can appreciate your concern and would certainly not want to be pulling people out of a river on a regular basis and performing CPR. On the other hand, if I was responsible for a group, I don't know that I would be comfortable having an 18 year old as my guide. I would be feeling more comfortable with someone with a little more maturity and experience. With this in mind and realizing your emotional state when you originally posted, please try to get your facts a little more straight when dealing with such an emotionally charged issue. Safety first, the river doesn't always give you a second chance!

Below is a link to a newspaper story with greater detail about the float trip including an account by one of the other leaders who was tossed from the raft: http://www.rexburgstandardjournal.com/articles/2009/06/29/news/44.txt

From an earlier post, I got the impression that the Scout did personally appear before the District Advancement Committee and have an opportunity to present his case. I think that mdsummer45 mentioned that they even took time to talk with her after the District EBOR/Appeal meeting. Based on this information, it doesn't appear that a decision was made on a one-sided presentation at the district level. Based on Beavah's post concerning initial appeals, it appears that the district did it's job properly. "Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained." How can anyone determine whether or not there was any bias at any level? That seems like an impossible task to determine yet many on this forum seem quick to assume devious ulterior motives on the part of this Scoutmaster and that others in his district or council would aid him, completely ignoring any personal commitment to the Scout Oath and Law that they may have. It seems that the SM provided this Scout with the opportunity for a do-over and was ultimately ignored, thus forcing his hand. In the excerpts from ljnrsu's post that were later edited out, it seems that the Scout's lack of follow-through on that do-over opportunity was a major issue. Going back to the posts on the other forum back in November, mdsummer45 was going to see that her son made personal contact with the SM via letter or phone calls that possibly weren't made. A number of different instances have been mentioned at one time or another in the posts implying that perhaps there was an established pattern of behavior that was in question with this Scout. It just seems hard to believe that a Scoutmaster, a troop committee, a district advancement committee and a council advancement committee have all come to the wrong conclusion regarding this Scout and his quest to become an Eagle Scout.

Thanks for the link. I had just found the article on my own. The article doesn't say whether the float trip was guided or not. "McHouston and other adult leaders with a group of Boy Scouts launched a raft from the West Table boat ramp to run the popular whitewater stretch of the Snake River south of Jackson. McHouston was thrown from the raft when it hit a rapid known as Three Oar Deal, a spokeswoman for Bridger-Teton National Forest said Friday. McHouston, who was wearing a personal flotation device, was sucked under. Just the force of the whirlpool kept him under, Richins said. This time of year, especially, with that volume of water, those whirlpools can be pretty vicious. Another trip leader was thrown from the raft but was able to swim away, Richins said, and all of the Boy Scouts stayed in the raft and were unhurt. Richins said he did not know how may Scouts were on the trip." What a tragic end to what was supposed to be a fun adventure - a memory that no Scout should have!

As of 8 PM on 6/28, there is still no information available from news organizations on the web about this reported occurrence. Has anyone been able to obtain verification on the facts? Having had some hairy whitewater experiences myself, I concur that a Scout leader who takes a group out on true whitewater without a guide is courting disaster. Even though you have run a particular stretch of river before, every day and every change in water level presents new challenges. Finding a trained guide, with knowledge on that particular river, should be the first step in a trained leader's planning for safety on any whitewater trip.

While the information about the awards ceremony was interesting, it doesn't show what your son has been doing or his relationship with his troop. "I find it very interesting that the only group who find my son argumentative and uncooperative are Scouters. Very strange indeed." What was the make-up of the group that your son appeared before? Obviously the meeting did not go the way that you expected it to. "Will let you all know what is in the District letter when my son receives it." Since this is the second time that it appears that your son has been turned down, there must be some strong reasons being given to you. It is hard to understand what is going on with the limited amount of information being conveyed. What are they actually saying?