Narraticong

Sorry, Nachamawat, but I think in both your cases, the Ipod was not the problem. It would seem to be a leadership problem. Had the Scout been reading a book, or sitting by himself working on knots, his actions would have been inappropriate. If the Scout had not had his Ipod, do we really think his behavior would have been better? Obviously he was not interested in what was going on.

A SCOUT IS TRUSTWORTHY. Whether legal or not, insured or not, official or not, does not matter. We all know we are talking about finding a way to get around this potential change in policy. I find teaching our boys ways to skirt laws to be against everything we are doing. If it is a law or policy, you have several choices. You can obey it, change it, or no longer belong to the group. But if we adults are going to debate how to bend the rule until just before it snaps, we may as well close up shop. If we go to the many "issues" discussions here, I believe this same problem is generally at the root. Shame on us for even thinking like that!

Rules are rules, guidelines are not rules, but more like suggestions! If an individual lodge decides it's OK to wear a sash on the belt, who really cares? Maybe a little individuality is a good thing. Otherwise, why don't we just do away with lodge names, totems, and numbers? There are things which are important and worth fighting over. And then there is just plain nitpicking.

I think Stosh meant "Myabe I hvae dliesyxa..." There, now proceed.

My goodness, more acronyms than the Federal Government! How did Scouts ever make it this far with such a limited alphabet? I think we need some more letters in the alphabet so we can have some more courses. And when we're done, let's all learn about Soccer Scouts! Take your boys into the woods. Use knives, axes, and saws. Build fires. Sit around fires at night and talk or do whatever comes naturally to boys. Be a boy yourself. Here's a crazy idea... any adult training courses should be primarily staffed by Scouts and Scouters under the age of 21. I'm afraid we're losing touch.

You won't find many Scouters who appreciate the old school methods of pre-1972 Scouting than me. But I am also realistic enough to accept that times change and not every change is bad. While electronics are not welcome at our Council Camp, district events, or even troop outings, my mind is swinging the other way. One of my personal goals in Scouting is to instill a lifelong love of the outdoors in the boys. In large part that means developing a comfort, or relaxation from camping. For boys of today, that often includes music. I enjoy reading a book sometimes during my down time. But I also enjoy music. Why should I not be able to enjoy it in the outdoors? As old guys, our real challenge lies with the boys having those headphones on all day long. Well, consider it a great sign that there may be a problem with your program. If the boys are pulling out their ipods while they should be working on Scoutcraft, then something important is missing. Provide a strong, exciting program and I think we will not have to worry about ipods. During their downtime, let them enjoy their music as long as it does not annoy others.

Liberals, homosexuals, democrats, and atheists! Now I understand...

I agree with back to the basics. But those of us who grew up on the basics are quickly aging. Who will recruit new, young volunteers and teach them "the basics"? Current BSA materials surely do not. The idea of the professional staff being purposed to support the volunteers is right on target. Let them do the fundraising. Things are tough, but even here in Detroit there are still some wealthy folks who will support the right cause. But squezzing a few more FOS dollars from our troop will be a tough task for the district presenter tomorrow night. I guess those of us who are committed to the program for life just have to step up a little higher. I don't have much more money or time to give, but I can find a little. If you do the same, we can make it through these tough times!

Didn't mean to sound disagreeable about our disagreement! I don't like ivy either. So, we aren't disagreeing so much as we are expressing a preference. While I tend to follow the insignia guide, it's not really a big deal for me. There are many things in modern Scouting which I feel are really against our goals. But that would be a horse of a different color...(This message has been edited by narraticong)

Here's one Scoutmaster who hopes I never stop thinking that stuff is funny. My relationship with my son has improved 100% since I realized that there are times when his 50 year old Dad can still be 12 years old. Of course, my 14 year old daughter just thinks it's "gross". But my wife (who I love with all my heart) understands...

Liberals, Democrats, homosexuals, and atheists.

NRP- I don't know why we disagree on wearing our sash on the belt. Please note that I did not say that I currently wear it there, because I do not. But if the youth were to change the rules to allow it, or my Scout Executive approve it, I sure would. John and I both come from the same era. I proudly wore my sash on my belt back in 1972. Our Supreme Chief of the Fire has approved wearing our sashes at just about all Scout functions. But it is a bit awkward. I think it would be easy to identify Arrowmen with our sash on our belts.

John is spot on. I am aware of the Missouri Synod feeling on Masons. I did not grow up in the Lutheran Church. My father and both brothers are / were Masons. I am the only member of my family who is not a Mason. But that was a choice I made for myself before I was a Lutheran. Just good luck, I suppose! Coming from the outside, I really don't think MS Lutherans are "weird". Conservative, yes, with a strict belief in what Scripture says. I'm OK with that. I don't always like it, and I have to reconcile myself and my beliefs. But that's all part of my spiritual growth. My troop is chartered by my congregation. They are now incorporating Religious Emblem program as part of our Sunday School program.

I suppose that just as every patrol, troop, district and council are different in many ways, so are our OA Lodge. Having been a Brother for 37 years, but a member of my current lodge for only 7 years, I can vouch that my ladge is outstanding. These boys are cream of the crop young leaders. Cheerful Service is their goal and our camps could not exist without their efforts. Our troop had our first election last fall. Four boys were eligible and as Scoutmaster, I approved all for the ballot. Had I a vote, I would have voted for three, leaving the last off because of Scout Spirit issues. But I'm a new Scoutmaster and thought maybe election would be good motivation for him. But the boys themselves made the right decision anf elected 3 of the 4 boys. Maybe next year for number 4. I talked with him afterward and I think he understands nad has begun to shape up. Just like 13 year old Eagle Scouts, such young OA Brothers just don't get it". But we adults have pushed our kids to achieve rather than have fun and grow. We have watered down the BSA program as a whole.

Thanks for contributing. Axe to grind? make sure you have a Totin' Chip. Maybe a Paul Bunyan. That's a long line of folks to take on! God Bless 'em one and all for caring about boys!

Can you tell me how to get to Sesame Street? This thread presented to you by the letter "E"

Overall, I found it to be interesting reading, and thought provoking. I also come from a Lutheran background and would consider myself rather conservative in matters of faith. But I have been a Brother in our Order for 37 years. I'll welcome my son as a Brother in another month! But I can see how those even more conservative than me might see a problem with OA. That is their decision to make. We can argue about matters of faith until the cows come home, but in the end it all comes down to our personal relationship (or lack of) with God. We can beleive as Christians that God gave us free will which results in non-stop bad decisions. Or we can be atheists and beleive that there is no afterlife and what we do in life has no meaning once we die. Or we can beleive any number of things in between! Make your choice and live with the result. It's all up to you. So, Mr. Salza is welcome to believe whatever he likes, and to do his best to convince me and all of you that we are "bad parents" for allowing our sons to join OA. He does have some valid points to consider. We most certainly do have a "blood covenant" in our rituals. It is symbolic. But some people might equate that symbolism to Christian Sacraments. It's all a matter of perspective. But when the OA as a whole is considered, we each must decide where it fits in relation to our Faith life. As conservative as I am, I'm OK with the the OA.

We had some Webelos visit our troop the other night. The Den Leader asked me about Order of the Arrow. Seems among Cub Leaders there was the idea of some connection with Arrow of Light. I spent 10 minutes telling her about our great service organization. She was very impressed that Scouts has an Honor Society and that the result being given this honor is that we willingly work our butts off! There is mystery to our order, but we need to balance that with enough visibility to encourage Scouts, leaders, and parent sto ask questions. If it were up to me, I'd make it OK to wear your sash any time you are in uniform and also to wear it on your belt. It's not at all about bragging. It's about encouraging boys to want to be one of us.

As an 18 year old camp staffer, I was drafted to be Counselor for Woodcarving Merit Badge. Something I was not really a good choice for. I still bear the scar in my thigh as the result of an errant X-Acto knife! I still have a severe case of X-Actophobia... But now I own a bunch of very sharp knives- none of them X-Actos!

I served as my sons Den Leader throughout his time in Cubs and now serve as his Scoutmaster (poor kid!). As Tigers, they have no idea what they like and will do pretty much whatever you say, as long is there is more doing than talking. So, I did like my Mom did when she was my Den Mother in 1969; I focused on crafts. But by the time Bears came around, I was clearly losing the boys interest, especially my own son. Every week on the way home he complained how boring our meetings were. We went on outings and "go see its", and those were "great", but the den meetings were "boring". So I took a step back and figured it out. And he was right! As soon as we started doing more activities and putting the emphasis on fun, they all became interested again. Hardly any crafts unless it related to a badge. More emphasis on going places to work on badges. Even just holding our meetings outside rather than in one of the school classrooms made a difference. No more complaints of boring. So, two pieces of advice learned the hard way. First, keep as much of your meeting active, especially as the boys get older. If you meet in the evening, remember they have had to sit still in a classroom all day. That's hard enough, but to ask the boys to do that for another hour and a half at night is brutal! Second, as the boys reach Wolf and Bear age, let them make some of the suggestions and start taking ownership. What better way to get them ready for "Boy Leadership"? Some ideas may sound silly to adults, but try to go with some of them. Let yourself be an 8 or 9 year old boy sometimes. By the way, our entire Webelos 2 Den crossed over into Scouts. Two years later we have lost only one of six boys. The rest are still very active in Scouts.

We had 12 boys at summer camp last year. It was the first year for all but one. They spent half a day working on T-2-1 and half a day on merit badges and other opportunities. Our first year Scouts earned these badges between them: basketry, sculpture, leatherwork, swimming, fishing, fingerprinting, space exploration, reptile and amphibians. They may have been a few others. There were also other proficiency awards earned: Snorkeling, Kayaking, and we had a 12 year old Scout earn Mile Swim. The troop also earned two honor awards for participation and a special commendation for a service project. Every boy from last year is coming back again. So I think the key is to let them make the choices and to just have fun!

I'm with Packsaddle on this one. On hikes I am usually one of the last ones in line because I am constantly looking around for signs of nature. Boys find it really cool and interesting when I start munching on rose hips, raspberries, strawberries. Or stop to try to identify scat or tracks. Part of my love for the outdoors came from my own Scoutmaster who taught me that hiking is an experience, not a race.

We had a great troop meeting last night that I wanted to share with everyone. Our troop is young with most boys under First Class. We have one Life Scout, a Senior in high school. Life Scouts Grandpa is a good friend of mine, and is a long time District volunteer. Life Scout transferred into our troop last year and I don't think Grandpa has ever worked directly with him in a troop. I found out Grandpa is skilled at knots. He volunteered to come help the troop with knots. We took him up on the offer, but with a twist. We asked him to have his Life Scout grandson help with the demonstration. They both agreed and set upon working together on the presentation. The meeting was outstanding. Besides learning knots the boys learned several other lessons as well. They learned that an older person and a younger person can work well on a project together. They saw a grandfather and grandson who obviously love and respect each other. They learned that an older person still has much to offer the community and that many older people enjoy being around young people. But I think what touched me most was watching grandfather and grandson work together as a team. The young man and the old man, both with a love for Scouting, but who had never had a chance to share it together. The simple lesson is that the boys learned knots last night. But there was so much more to be learned from that experience. Once again, I am convinced Scouting is the best program we can offer our boys!

According to the New Testament, the only way to reach Heaven is through Jesus. That is very clear to those of us who are Christians. So, yes, we do believe that all other religions and gods are false, in the sense that they do not accept those words from Jesus. The Bible does not say maybe, or that there may be other options. Our belief is that the result of belief in anything other than the above will lead to eternity in Hell. A Christian would then believe that parents who teach their children anything else are leading those children toward eternal damnation. In that sense they are being "bad" parents. How we lead our daily lives on earth is a totally different matter. There are many non-Christians in my life who are warm, caring people who do tremendous good works for our community. I am grateful for all they do, and I thank God for them every day. My Christian faith lets me know that God loves them just as he loves me. For that reason, I pray every day that they will come to know the Lord. You see, my faith also tells me that all the good works in the world will do us no good once we leave the world, unless we know Jesus. On the other hand, the thief on the cross next to Jesus lives on in Heaven. Grace is a wonderful thing! We can all pick incongruities from any denomination. I happen to agree that it might be difficult for a three year old to "accept Jesus" in a conscious manner. Many wrong deeds have been done in the name of Christianity over the years. That is a result of our sinful nature. Our pride continues to get in the way. Again, it does not matter how many good deeds I do, God knows I continue to screw up every day. But because of Jesus, God chooses not to see those sins. As Americans, and as Scouts, we believe in freedom of choice. We tolerate different political, religious, and philisophical beliefs. In this sense I think tolerate does not mean I must beleive all religions are "good", or that all are "the same". But, I do believe as an American, and as a Scout, we all have a right to freely believe in whatever we choose. Do I impose my beliefs on my Scouts? Certainly not. But I also am right up front about doing my best to live my life according to my faith. Doing elsewise would be a lie. When matters of faith come up, Scouts are asked to do things as their own faith suggests. But if a Scout, fellow leader, or parent asks particulars about my faith, I will gladly share. I make no apology if others find my beliefs make them uncomfortable. The fact is they make me uncomfortable sometimes too! I know that on my own, I deserve to spend eternity in Hell!

Don't give up. If you feel you are providing a fun, positive experience for the boys, you will eventually find success. Our troop is closing in on our second birthday. We have one year of summer camp under our belt. We gained six new boys last year and only three this year. Available boys from Webelos 2 were just really scarce this year. But, we have picked up boys through transfers. Some of the boys you lost to bigger troops may eventually find they are not happy. Let it be known that the door is always open. Our troop has benefited by transfer boys. One is closing in on Eagle. Another will likely be our SPL shortly. Keep participating in functions that make your troop visible. We have three families visiting our meeting this week. Their den had seen our troop at a Webelos function last fall. But they were from another town with several troops. Turns out we might just fit their need and they may join our troop. An unexpected success and a new source for Webelos in the future. Make it fun, run a good program, and let the boys lead. You may not have the glitz, but in the end you will have more boys participating in what Scouts is really all about. We are not all going to be the biggest troop in town. Quality is more important.