NancyB

If the behavior is blatant enough at a meeing for a boy to figure out, where was the scoutmaaster or other leaders? I really don't care what they are doing outside the meeting, but scouting is for boys and not a dating service for the adults. I know there is always a huge debate as to whether or not to tell the spouse, but in this day and age, i would hope that I would be told. With aids and other diseases, it's not just about cheating anymore. I dont know that someone who is cheating would be responsible enough to keep themselves safe and could pass it along to his family. And my daughter has both a male and a female leader in her girl scouts group. The male comes along on overnights but is very careful about where he puts his tent, etc. and his beahavior toward the other women in the area has always been above reproach.

I have enjoyed reading all the different viewpoints on this matter. They all give me food for thought. But one thought - if the BSA didn't care whether we followed the rules, why did they make them? They are there for a reason. I personally disagree with a few of them, but that doesn't give me a right to flaunt those rules. Scouting is not about the leaders, it is about the boys. I have seen too many scouting leaders who are more interested in the politics, for lack of a better word, of scouting rather than about the boys. I would think that most of the rules and policies are about protecting the boys. And I'm sure many of them were created from situations that went bad. Years ago, when I was in college and living in my apartment, my neighbor was a scout leader. One day, he just stopped living there. Then I saw his name in the paper as having been arrested for molesting boys in his troop. And no, he wasn't a homosexual, he was a pedophile. Putting that incident into perspective of this thread, was he doing something (other than the obvious crime) that violated BSA rules/policies? Did he have this boy alone in the tent with him? Did other people see that he broke a few rules but looked the other way b/c those rules were really kinda silly? And it wasn't their job to say anything? And the council/commissioners didn't think it was that big of a deal? If the scout leaders/commissioners etc see this behavior and don't do anything, then their lack of action condones the behavior and the rule breaking. And if a child is injured and the parents find out that it happened b/c somone broke a rule that really doesn't mean much in today's society and no one did anything about it and let it happen.....well, guess what, your name is going on that lawsuit too. The family will sue not just BSA, but every leader involved with allowing the rule breaking to go on. And if the council finds out that there was a leader/commissioner who didn't do their job, they are going to have a choice to make between (a) defending your decision to fail to enforce the rules and to notify them of any problems, taking all the liability themselves or (b) claiming that they had rules in place to protect the boys and the leader didn't do what he was supposed to do, which puts the liability on the leader. Hate to say it, but they'll put the blame on the leader/commissioner for not enforcing BSA policy. Whether or not the family gets a judgment against you is irrelevant, you are going to spend a huge amount of money and time defending that lawsuit. And don't think this won't happen. The family will sue all those involved so that it can get all the information through depositions and other investigation to find out where the fault is. And there are already lawsuits and other legal matters out there that have arisen out of this scenario. And don't blame the legal system - if it were your child who was injured b/c no one followed the rules, you'd be upset too. My bottom line is --- the BSA created the rules and policies and they can't be everywhere to enforce them. That's why they have commsissioners and other leaders. Don't take chances. If someone gets hurt b/c rules aren't followed - chances are it will be a child who is hurt. If there is a rule infraction, investigate and deal with it. I'm not saying fire or get rid of every person who is accused of breaking a rule. If necessary, "suspend" them while you investigate to get to the bottom of the problem. It might just be a misunderstanding somewhere. But don't just ignore the rule violations. And Eamonn- can I join your troop??? Even though I may not agree with everything you've said, I like the way that you are putting the kids first and the way you look at this problem. You really made a lot of sense with this. And as a parent, my bottom line is that I want my child to be safe. And since I can't be there for all the functions, I have to depend on the leaders to do this for me and trust that they will follow the BSA rules.

I did not go to the man's wife. I don't have any idea how she found out, but his behavior wasn't that discreet. She came to me, as another parent and mother, to figure out what to do as far as her son is concerned b/c she wants to do the right thing for him. Right now, he is her top priorit. She was upset about what was allowed to happen in front of her son and the guilt he had at being put in the position of keeping it secret. She was concerned that the other kids may start saying things to her son. Kids can be unthinking at times. My intention with this post was to find out what the scout policy was since I know there are policies about se*ual orientation and sleeping arrangements b/t non-married couples. I also wanted to know who to go to if there was such a policy, whether it be the scoutmaster or a commissioner or whomever. I wanted the concern to go to the right person so it could be handled the right way. I do not know the woman's husband and have no interest in talking to him. And if this troop ends up losing more members, wouldn't it be a good thing for the council or whomever to know why parents are upset and leaving? It took this mother for me to realize what I needed to do for my son. I want him to have positive role models.

When you read this thread along with the one about adult sleeping arrangements, there are a lot of interesting arguments on both sides. I have talked to the mother of this scout. The son had been aware of the relationship b/c of what he has seen at meetings and scout functions. He was put into the position of keeping his father's secret. I can't begin to imagine the emotional harm he suffered at the scout meetings by being forced to watch his father's behavior with this other leader. Take away the scout uniform, and this is a just a child. We can all argue policy and whether it's any of our business, but the first "policy" of the boy scouts should be doing what is best for the boys. If they want to have a relationship, they need to keep it away from any scout functions/meetings and not use those times as an opportunity to get together with each other. Apparently, they weren't very discreet b/c others have complained to the scout master. The scout master should have referred this amtter to someone in the council to address since the positions of the parties involved make it a council issue. While relationships may happen, the leaders need to think about where they are and who is watching and the age of those who are watching. My son is leaving scouts. I don't know that I even want to look at another troop at this point. I am so disappointed in the way this was handled and allowed to continue on for so long. The mother is still undecided, but now has a very bad impression of scouting. So there is a very strong likelihood that this boy - who had previously won a national heroism award in scouting - may be leaving permanently also. As parents, many of us want to find a safe place for our children where they can grow to be good adults and to learn that values still have a place in this society. Yes, people make mistakes, but mistakes need to be investigated and addressed. That is where I put the "fault", for lack of a better word. I know that my position may offend/infuriate/disappoint others on this board. But that's ok, too, we are all entitled to our own opinions. I am not some comservative Christian or any other label. I am just a mom and I need to act in the best interests of my son. He is a boy and a child and my son first, and a scout second. It's my job to bring him up the best I can and hope that he turns out to be a good adult, and at this point, this is not the enviornment he needs to be in. Thank you so much for all of your thoughts on this. I have struggled with this decision for some time. The comments on this board have helped me to see the different viewpoints on this matter. I only hope that the council does investigate the matter and take whatever steps are necessary. If things change, I would still like to have him in scouting b/c there are so many good individuals out there who have given so much of themselves. It is a shame that two people are being permitted to act in such a way to damage their troop.

The comments in this thread are very enlightening. I was interested in it since I started a separate thread about inappropriate relationships b/t 2 married leaders who are not married to each other. My thoughts - and please hold the stones ---- The rules are the rules. I have rules with my job. I dont' necessarily like them or agree with them, but I follow them. I like my paycheck. There are certain morality rules with my job. I know the consequences if I break them. Extra-marital sex and teen pregnancy is a huge issue in our society. Yes, some of these boys may have parents who have set very bad examples for their children. But does that mean that the leaders are therefore excused from their bad behavior? Show the kids that it is ok to act in a moral manner. Set a good example. No one is saying that they can't live together, but, for goodness sake, would it really have killed either one of them to sleep apart for a couple nights??? I'm not saying fire him or anything. But make it clear that this isn't acceptable and will not happen again. If he doesn't like the rule and leaves, then maybe this wasn't the right position for him to be in. I know a lot of parents who have their sons in scouts so they learn about doing the right thing b/c it's hard to get those lessons in any other place in today's society. Kids today are a lot more sophisticated than you give them credit for. They know a lot more about sex and relationships. I hear younger kids talking about swingtown all the time. Let's have some decent behavior to counteract what they are seeing everywhere else and show them that there are other options. And remember that they talk amongst themselves. And if you are in a troop in any type of smaller community, you know whose married and who isn't. And a final thought - if this is a group with teens with overactive hormones, do you want your son to be taught - at a boy scout campout - that it's ok to sleep with someone you're engaged to? B/c if it goes on at a boy scout campout and the boy scouts are always lecturing me about doing the right thing and following the oath, does that set a stronger example than what he sees in a tv program or somewhere else is ok behavior b/c even the scout leaders do it at the campouts? Does that then lead him to think well if that's ok, then it's ok for me to sleep with my girlfriend b/c we've been going steady a long time? just my thoughts....

Thanks again for all of your insight. Based on what one of the posts said - and I'm not specifically identifying anyone by their postiions - it would be a council issue. Both parties are married. One of them does not have any boys involved in scouting and realistically could leave the situation by working with one of the many other troops in this area. That would, to me, seem to solve the sitaution. If they want to continue the hanky panky at adult meetings and functions, so be it. But they do not need to flaunt the relationship at functions with the boys. Our school district recently fired a teacher for soliciting a prostitute - he was placed on leave til the criminal matter was resolved. The thought process was that as a teacher he is supposed to set a moral example to the students. I guess I would hope the same could be said of a scout leader. I know that we all make mistakes, but I don't want to see a good troop destroyed b/c of what two volunteers are doing. I know that the scoutmaster has been made aware of the situation and is "monitoring" it - whatever that means and he has expressed his own concerns about their behavior to the parent who has discussed it with him. I really think he is afraid to do anything at this point b/c of the position of one of those involved, and I feel for him. This is not the type of headaches you would ever hope to take on as a volunteer. If both of these leaders were married men who were having an inappropriate relationship, what would be the response of the council? It is an interesting question and I guess I don't know how you would justify a different response to the situation. The bottom line to me is that scouts are supposed to be for the boys and not a dating service for the leaders and the focus needs to be on their best interests. The adult hanky panky needs to go somewhere else. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you so much for all of your insight. The marriage of the first woman he had an affair with ended in divorce b/c of the relationship which is how all of this came out into the open. It is just very frustrating when the council keeps praising his leadership abilities but there are families that are talking about leaving the troop b/c of his behavior. I would hate to see a good troop be destroyed b/c of one person. My son has friends in this group so I don't want him to leave his group, so it is not an easy choice. I understand that relationships like this can happen but it is not the role model I want for my child in a scout leader.

I have not been able to get any guidance for this issue in my son's troop. I hope this isn't an inappropriate subject for this message board, but I really don't know how to handle this problem. A married male leader (who is not the actual scout master) is currently involved in some type of romantic relationship with another female leader. He previously had an affair with a different female married leader. I don't think this is idle gossip b/c he hasnt' been very discreet. My main question is whether there is some type of boy scout policy on relationships like this? Should the scout master address the issue? It is a big topic of discussion among the parents and it is detrimental to the troop. I also worry about the example this is setting for my child and I am strongly considering looking for another troop for my son. This is not the moral example that I want to see for my son in scouting. I like the benefits of scouting for my son, but I don't want him to think I condone this behavior. Any input you can give to this would be very appreciated.