mtm25653

Several of the special programs at the Blue Ridge Mountain Camps (Ottari and Powhatan) in Virginia, feature patrol cooking - Mountain Man (late 18th century living history, cook over open fires using cast iron), High Knoll Trails (5 day backpacking with several program outposts), Voyageur (4 day canoeing trek plus 1 day rafting trip).

Am I the only one who has ever noticed a teenage boy standing a little straighter and looking more confidant when they put on a scout uniform, because he is identifying with being a scout? Am I the only one who has seen cubs be better behaved when they button and tuck in their uniform shirts?

SSScout said: Still, there ain't no more Blacksmithing MB, and some might mourn the loss of the Rabbit Raising MB. There is a Blacksmithing badge, sort of - it is one of the options for metalworking - I can't speak to the differences in requirements to the old badge, but I can see the logic of combining similar, rarely earned badges into one book. I treasure the twisted hook my son made for me. (Can't help you with Rabbit Raising, maybe you could lobby to get it added to Animal Science - there is a avian option now.)

There is a lot of bamboo in our area, and landowners are usually very happy for our troop to cut it. Lightweight, strong, easy to handle (the biggest I've seen is 4-5" in diameter.)

I don't think it's that my boys are/were overcommitted, just that advancement to Eagle isn't their only goal. Remember Advancement is only one of the methods of scouting. They have put more energy/time into the methods of Outdoor Programs, Personal Growth, and Leadership Development and they live the Ideals of scouting in their everyday lives. Why do you consider the lessons they have learned from those less important than earning advancement to Eagle by a certain age?

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GernBlansten said: "Yeah, every one of our "death bed" Eagle scouts weren't dedicated to the program. They were when they were 14, but lost it along the way. I'm coming to the conclusion that if you ain't Eagle by 16, you've lost the spark. " I have 2 of those "death bed" Eagles, and potentially a third, and I take issue with your statement. My oldest son was least interested in scouts, but he went on every campout except in the fall when he had a conflict with football. Due to summer academic programs, he missed going to summer camp with his troop for 3 years, but he went on his own provisional. He worked at cub day camp when he was 17, and was SPL his senior year. In the fall, I asked him why he didn't want to finish his Eagle, and he said he didn't want to earn it just to look good on college applications. In January (with a May birthday), after he completed college applications, he finished his last couple merit badges and project (a worship space with benches and a campfire in the woods at our church) and turned in his paperwork a few days before his 18th birthday. My middle son turned his Eagle paperwork in a week and a half before his birthday, a couple of days before he left on a 2-week troop trip hiking 200 miles on the Appalachian Trail. Two summers before he went to Philmont. In 7th, 8th and 9th grades, he was Den chief to 2 dens of Webelos. In 10th, he was ASPL. His junior year, he was SPL and planned the district Webelos Woods campout, and he said to me he couldn't do his project at the same time. Senior year he took 5 AP courses and was captain of the basketball team and chair of the student council. These took up more time than he thought, so he didn't get to his project and last couple of merit badges till spring of his senior year. My youngest is a 16 yo Life Scout. This summer he's working at Scout camp and going to Philmont. Last year he hiked the AT for 2 weeks, and the year before he went to Northern Tier. He goes on every camping trip. He works on cook crew for OA events. Last year he was ASPL and SPL; this year he is working with the SPL and PLC to develop their leadership (at the SM's request). He had planned to earn his Eagle while he was 16, but this past year decided to try to graduate high school a year early, so he may not finish his project in the next 8 months, while taking an extra math and English class, working at camp and playing basketball. So he may be 17 or even 17 1/2, a death-bed Eagle to you. But he, like his 2 brothers, has been active throughout his scout career. I know a couple of boys who lost interest then made a push to finish their Eagle, but I also know several others who were like my boys, active and involved in scouts and other events, and earned their Eagle at 17+. They are mature and confident young men who well deserve to be Eagles. Our troop is active and has a program that is still challenging to older boys. Don't give up on them, let them show leadership, understand that they have responsibilities outside of scouts (school/work/church/sports), and most/many of them will turn into Eagles you can be proud of.

What did B-P say that is relevent to this discussion? Longing for peace after three years of war, in 1917 B-P wrote "The roots of Scouting have grown among young people of all civilised countries and are developing more each day. It might be thought that if in years to come, a considerable proportion of the future citizens of each nation forms part of this brotherhood, they will be joined by a bond of personal friendship and mutual understanding such as has never existed before, which will help to find a solution to terrible international conflicts." http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouting/facts_figures/baden_powell/the_man_of_peace To demonstrate that Scouting could bring young people together to live harmoniously, he organised the first World Scout Jamboree which was held in England in 1920 with 8,000 Scouts from 34 countries. The highlight of the celebration was the closing ceremony, where B-P launched a challenge on the subject of peace and tolerance: Brother Scouts, I ask you to make a solemn choice... Differences exist between the people of the world in thought and sentiment, just as they do in language and physique. The war has taught us that if one nation tries to impose its particular will upon others, cruel reaction is bound to follow. The Jamboree has taught us that if we exercise mutual forbearance and give-and-take, then there is sympathy and harmony. If it be your will, let us go forth from here fully determined that we will develop among ourselves and our boys that comradeship, through the world-wide spirit of the Scout Brotherhood so that we may help to develop peace and happiness in the world and good will among men. Brother Scouts, answer me. Will you join in this endeavour? The answer was described by historian Tim Jeal, author of Baden-Powell: The ringing cry of "Yes", which he received on that summer afternoon would be the first of many, after the promotion of international peace became his first priority. In Aids to Scoutmastership, emphasising the subject of brotherhood, he wrote: Scouting is a brotherhood - a scheme which in practice, disregards differences of class, creed, country and colour, through the indefinable spirit that pervades it - the spirit of God's gentleman. He saw the Promise and Law as a way to prevent wars and conflicts: It is the spirit that matters. Our Scout Law and Promise, when we really put them into practice take away all occasion for wars and strife between nations. His opening speech at the International Scout Conference in Kandersteg (Switzerland) in 1926, is often quoted: Peace cannot be secured entirely by commercial interests, military alliances, general disarmament or mutual treaties, unless the spirit for peace is there in the minds and will of the peoples. This is a matter of education. Baden-Powell died in 1941, deeply disappointed that the Second World War had begun. One of his last writings was: One thing is essential to general and permanent peace, and that is a total and general change of spirit among the peoples, the change to closer mutual understanding, to subjugation of national prejudices, and the ability to see with the other fellows eye in friendly sympathy. http://static.scribd.com/docs/7pcfahpkjcay9.swf

What did B-P say that is relevent to this discussion? Longing for peace after three years of war, in 1917 B-P wrote "The roots of Scouting have grown among young people of all civilised countries and are developing more each day. It might be thought that if in years to come, a considerable proportion of the future citizens of each nation forms part of this brotherhood, they will be joined by a bond of personal friendship and mutual understanding such as has never existed before, which will help to find a solution to terrible international conflicts." http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouting/facts_figures/baden_powell/the_man_of_peace To demonstrate that Scouting could bring young people together to live harmoniously, he organised the first World Scout Jamboree which was held in England in 1920 with 8,000 Scouts from 34 countries. The highlight of the celebration was the closing ceremony, where B-P launched a challenge on the subject of peace and tolerance: Brother Scouts, I ask you to make a solemn choice... Differences exist between the people of the world in thought and sentiment, just as they do in language and physique. The war has taught us that if one nation tries to impose its particular will upon others, cruel reaction is bound to follow. The Jamboree has taught us that if we exercise mutual forbearance and give-and-take, then there is sympathy and harmony. If it be your will, let us go forth from here fully determined that we will develop among ourselves and our boys that comradeship, through the world-wide spirit of the Scout Brotherhood so that we may help to develop peace and happiness in the world and good will among men. Brother Scouts, answer me. Will you join in this endeavour? The answer was described by historian Tim Jeal, author of Baden-Powell: The ringing cry of "Yes", which he received on that summer afternoon would be the first of many, after the promotion of international peace became his first priority. In Aids to Scoutmastership, emphasising the subject of brotherhood, he wrote: Scouting is a brotherhood - a scheme which in practice, disregards differences of class, creed, country and colour, through the indefinable spirit that pervades it - the spirit of God's gentleman. He saw the Promise and Law as a way to prevent wars and conflicts: It is the spirit that matters. Our Scout Law and Promise, when we really put them into practice take away all occasion for wars and strife between nations. His opening speech at the International Scout Conference in Kandersteg (Switzerland) in 1926, is often quoted: Peace cannot be secured entirely by commercial interests, military alliances, general disarmament or mutual treaties, unless the spirit for peace is there in the minds and will of the peoples. This is a matter of education. Baden-Powell died in 1941, deeply disappointed that the Second World War had begun. One of his last writings was: One thing is essential to general and permanent peace, and that is a total and general change of spirit among the peoples, the change to closer mutual understanding, to subjugation of national prejudices, and the ability to see with the other fellows eye in friendly sympathy. http://static.scribd.com/docs/7pcfahpkjcay9.swf

We don't have pack meetings in June and July, and replace them with pack summer activities. Then the August pack meeting has all the awards from day camps. Also, our May pack meeting is a campout for graduation from one level to another. We don't actually call the monthly pack gathering a meeting, because meetings are boring to boys. We call them powwows, and try to have something different/exciting at each one so the boys want to participate.

Several people have mistakenly said that some charter schools are private. This is not true and is one of the biggest misunderstandings about charter schools. Some charter schools are run by school systems or colleges, other are run by private organizations (either non-profits or for profit companies), but the definition of a charter school is that it is public. (I have been involved with charter schools for 9 years - my husband has been on the board of our sons' school for most of that time.) From the NEA (teacher's union) website: Charter schools are publicly funded elementary or secondary schools that have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools, in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each charter school's charter. NEA believes that charter schools and other nontraditional public school options have the potential to facilitate education reforms and develop new and creative teaching methods that can be replicated in traditional public schools for the benefit of all children The chartering organization (non-profit or for-profit company) could charter a unit, but the school itself can't. The board of my son's school (a separate corporation that runs the school) has considered chartering a troop/pack (most of the board members are current scout leaders or scout parents), but has deferred that decision until we have our own building (we meet in a shopping center now.)

We always have a section where leaders/other scouts tell stories/memories of the Eagle scout. Also, how about a slide show of pictures from his scouting career?

Anyone can lead songs - it doesn't have to be the Cubmaster. My song book is my fallback activity - I've lead songs for an hour, twice, at campouts during thunderstorms, and once when the forest service (Smokey the Bear) was late. Some suggestions - - you can't sing sitting down - everyone (including parents) has to stand up - since you're already standing, do an action song (like Grand Old Duke of York) - try a call and response song (so you don't need songsheets), like The Bear Song (the other day...I met a bear..) - ask a den to sing a song instead of doing a skit - they can practice/learn the words at the den meeting (again, don't need song sheets) - try gross songs - a past favorite is "Oh Tom the Toad, why did you run into the road" - sing cub scout vespers (or boy scout vespers) at the end of the meeting - sing a patriotic song they've learned at school (like America) as part of the flag ceremony

Our CM has started putting a question in our newsletter (the answer is also in the newsletter) - boys have to call him with the answer, and leave their name. At the next pack meeting, there is a reverse drawing of all the boys who called in the answer - with the winner getting a prize for his den - this month a special campfire meeting. This gets the boys to actually read the newsletter, teaches them to make a polite phone call (to the CM) and the whole den (1 out of 4 or 5, not just one boy) earns the prize.

If you have anyone going to Mountain Man, my son is working there this summer after attending the last 2 years. Great program - they wear their own uniform of a pullover (linen-like) hunting shirt, cook all their meals over a campfire using cast-iron pots, make a knife, shoot black-powder rifles, blacksmith, and learn stories and lore of old west mountain men.

My troop and packs (2 packs) have informal uniform closets - if you outgrow something, bring it in and put it in the closet - if you have new boys, see if something in the closet fits them. To some extent, it's first come, first served, but if there is a new family with more than one boy, the leaders point them to the closet first, since they are going to have the biggest expense. Remember, if the cost is a hardship, ask your local scout store to help - we've gotten uniforms for a few boys that way.

My troop and packs (2 packs) have informal uniform closets - if you outgrow something, bring it in and put it in the closet - if you have new boys, see if something in the closet fits them. To some extent, it's first come, first served, but if there is a new family with more than one boy, the leaders point them to the closet first, since they are going to have the biggest expense. Remember, if the cost is a hardship, ask your local scout store to help - we've gotten uniforms for a few boys that way.

As a child (a girl), I preferred the Hardy Boys to Nancy Drew. I was a tomboy who hated dolls and frilly things. If my brother had had the Dangerous book, I probably would have avidly read it, but he would have been more likely to build/do the things in it. As the mom of 3 boys, I understand that boys are fundamentally different than girls - my boys have done things that would never have occured to me, or appealed to me, as a girl, even a tomboy. They had the American Boys Handy book, and a few other books of pranks/tricks/building (not crafts). But mostly, they just did things, figuring them out instead of reading the directions, like the blacksmith's forge my 15 yo built last fall - he'd seen them and used them, but he didn't read a book to learn how to build it - he just built it. I have no problem with pitching books or products to girls only or boys only, with the understanding that some girls will like the boys' things, and some boys (though probably fewer) will like the girls' things.

Vocational counselling is just another part of adult association. My older sons both asked scout leaders to write college recommendations. One ASM encouraged my middle son to apply to a 6-week summer academic program, for which he was accepted. That same son chose his college double-major after discussions with another ASM on a 2 week trip on the Appalachian Trail. My youngest is considering a career after the SM and an ASM suggested that he would be good at it. Our troop does a number of merit badges as a group - not the ideal based on opinions on this board, but it does give boys ideas/encouragement on careers - everything from Law (with mock trial in the county courthouse and visit to the local jail) to plumbing (with soldered "sculpture"). ASM engineer (who earned Eagle in the troop a few years ago) taught Electronics to several older boys last year (during the meetings when the troop was doing things they had done multiple times) - none are planning on majoring in Engineering, but they have a much better understanding of what it entails. The leaders of the troop (myself included) regularly ask the older boys what their plans are - where they are applying to college, what they are thinking of majoring in, what they'd like to do. I know my boys have benefited by having a lot of adults interested and caring about their plans for their future.

When my youngest (of 3 boys) moved up to boy scouts, he asked me to not be as involved (I was Tiger Leader, Committee Chair and Webelos Den Leader when he was ages 4-11). He said "This is boy scouts, not mommy scouts," so I stayed in cub scouts, with limited involvement in the troop (Webelos to Scout transition for a couple years, one summer camp when the troop had another big trip, committee member). We have women very involved in our troop, including one who camps (including backpacking) on most troops (she was tapped out for OA earlier this month), but boys, even boys with fathers in the home (like my sons), need male role models more than they need female role models in their teen years. I understand that there are situations where a woman may need to be SM, if no man is available and qualified, but men and women are different, and we women can't teach a boy how to act like a man - we can tell him, we can give consequences (good and bad), but we are not men. That said, boys need to develop independence from both their moms and dads. We have a lot of new parents camp for a few months after their boys cross over, but we also have leaders who make sure the parents leave their boys alone to work with their patrol and the older scouts. If mom or dad wants to watch from a distance, particularly if there is a health or behavior issue and they need to be comfortable with their son's and the leaders' ability to handle that issue, that's fine. But adults camp with adults, and boys camp with boys, and that includes sleeping, cooking, building campfires, setting up tents, everything.

In 2000, Robert Putnam wrote a book called "Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community". From the Amazon.com editorial review: In a nutshell, he argued that civil society was breaking down as Americans became more disconnected from their families, neighbors, communities, and the republic itself. The organizations that gave life to democracy were fraying. Bowling became his driving metaphor. Years ago, he wrote, thousands of people belonged to bowling leagues. Today, however, they're more likely to bowl alone: "Television, two-career families, suburban sprawl, generational changes in values--these and other changes in American society have meant that fewer and fewer of us find that the League of Women Voters, or the United Way, or the Shriners, or the monthly bridge club, or even a Sunday picnic with friends fits the way we have come to live. Our growing social-capital deficit threatens educational performance, safe neighborhoods, equitable tax collection, democratic responsiveness, everyday honesty, and even our health and happiness." The conclusions reached in the book Bowling Alone rest on a mountain of data gathered by Putnam and a team of researchers since his original essay appeared. Its breadth of information is astounding--yes, he really has statistics showing people are less likely to take Sunday picnics nowadays. Dozens of charts and graphs track everything from trends in PTA participation to the number of times Americans say they give "the finger" to other drivers each year. If nothing else, Bowling Alone is a fascinating collection of factoids. Yet it does seem to provide an explanation for why "we tell pollsters that we wish we lived in a more civil, more trustworthy, more collectively caring community." What's more, writes Putnam, "Americans are right that the bonds of our communities have withered, and we are right to fear that this transformation has very real costs." Putnam takes a stab at suggesting how things might change, but the book's real strength is in its diagnosis rather than its proposed solutions. Bowling Alone won't make Putnam any less controversial, but it may come to be known as a path-breaking work of scholarship, one whose influence has a long reach into the 21st century. --John J. Miller The author has a newer book, "Better Together: The Book", with Lewis Feldstein. The website http://www.bettertogether.org/150ways.htm lists 150 ways to build social capital - number 21 is "Get involved with Brownies or Cub/Boy/Girl Scouts", but I bet most of us on this list do a lot of the other activities as well. Unfortunately, most people don't do any of them.

What about teaching/demonstrating boating knots for the kids not racing/tired of watching?

Years ago, my son's troop had a boy from Puerto Rico go to camp with them several times, when he was staying with an uncle each summer. For three years, my oldest son had a conflict with the troop's summer camp, an academic summer program and football practice, so he went to the local camp provisional (his troop went to different camps). It was an OK experience, but I think it would be best for him to develop a relationship with the troop in the area - if he's a 2nd year scout, he has a lot of years of summer camp ahead of him.

"My son will be 11 at the end of this upcoming August which is the beginning of 5th grade for him. He will be an "old" 5th grader. My understanding is that he could join BS in the fall and skip his entire Webelos II year. Which would be tough for him to do with me being the DL " My youngest moved up to the troop in Sept of 5th grade, after earning his AOL in August. I remained the den leader of his Webelos den (and his older brother remained the den chief of that den) until they crossed over in February. I didn't think it was right for me to either hold back my son (the youngest of 3 - he was more than ready for boy scouts) or abandon the den I had made a commitment to. Are you a leader just to be a leader for your son?

When our troop went to Halliburton, we limited it to 1st class scouts and above. We combined it with some site-seeing (day in Gettysburg on the way up and Wash DC on the way back, plus overnights in Niagara Falls.) My youngest was inspired by the program on trapping and other old-time skills, which led to him attending the Mountain Man program at Ottari for 2 years (and working there this summer). There wasn't a lot of emphasis on completing merit badges, mostly they just enjoyed the swimming, fishing and boating, but we did have a merit badge program in the evening put on by one leader, a lawyer, for the Law merit badge - the troop in the next campsite served as jury for a mock-court case the troop put on. A complication now is that all of your scouts and leaders will need passports (starting for land border crossing I think later this year).