msnowman

eghiglie - you could simply not accept the work from the mother. By turning in his work for him she is cheating him of a chance to grow. "Never have an adult do a job a youth can do". I have one (out of 2, its a small den) who is very shy and if he can possibly get out of doing a task by getting a parent to do it for him he will. Last year he tried getting out of bringing his PWD car to the launching. His father jumped in with "I'll do it for him". I simply told Dad that no, his son is a big boy and will follow the same rules and expectations as all the other boys. If he doesn't bring his own car up he doesn't race. (Only the boy and race officials handle the cars). Dad wasn't happy but Boy brought up his car and raced. When we met for the first time this fall I told them all what would be expected - this includes turning in their own work. I had the Den Chief explain Boy Led and that it means Boy Led....that each boy is responsible for his own work, not his mom, dad, auntie - they aren't the Scout, the youth is. This has worked well this year. Shy Scout is planning his flag ceremony for this month, asking his Den Chief for help, not his father. That seems to be harder for the father than the boy. Good luck. Michelle

Our Webelos work on activity pins in the Den meetings with occassional things sent home to be done there. For example, the chore list required for Citizenship beltloop that is required for Citizen pin that is required for rank. We cover most everything in the den meetings but there are a few things that they need to do at home. However, even with stuff done at home they bring it in for my final approval (I just really want to see that they did it instead of having mom or dad saying "yup, its fine"). We also take the last 15 minutes of the den meeting for them to decide what they are going to do at the pack meeting that month. I use this as a chance for them to experience boy-led hands on (they are Web I's and will be doing more and more of their own decision making, but it is a learned skill). They sit down with their den chief and pick an option out of a short list that the den chief and I create for the month. There's usually a couple of skits, a song, and a story. They pick roles and practice during the finally part of the den meeting. They also show what they have been working on for the month towards activity pins. As far as crafts go - I think some Webelos pins lend themselves naturally to craft projects while others do not. We made duct tape wallets yesterday as part of craftsman and they were a huge hit. But I can't picture doing crafts instead of Athlete, or worse, trying to find Athlete crafts that didn't irritate the dickens out of two active 9 yo boys. We play games - usually along the lines of quizzes about the pin we have been working on or parts of Boy Scout law etc. Last month we did "Wheel of Fitness", complete with a wheel to spin, prizes for correct answers (animal crackers) and lots of noise and laughter (and they did a great job answering too). In short - Webelos is a different world than Tiger/Wolf/Bear. Its ages and stages - Tigers have mom or dad for everything, Wolves can meet w/o their parents but most of their achievements are home based. Bears are taking another step away from home based achievements with things that lend themselves better to den level activities and Webelos are a step closer to Boy-led as they prep for graduating from the Pack and into the world of Boy Scouts. Perhaps the new CM would benefit from taking Webelos leader specific training? I'm a former (and soon to be returning) CM (and current WDL)and I've taken at least the on-line fast start training for each level of Cub Scouts. I found it helped me understand each level a bit better. YiS Michelle

Amen to that Lisabob. I'm a fixer by nature. Watching things go less than perfectly is very, very difficult....another reason I'm glad I avoided campouts that first year. I am far better for staying out of the Troop loop for Nephew's first year - and I think that piece of reality is helping me be a better Webelos leader this time around. YiS Michelle

He doesn't generally mind wearing the uniform. With the new switchback pants it is a lot easier to get him out of his regular jeans or khakis than it was when he had to wear "those stupid pants". He likes setting himself apart and having the most complete uniform...and I've started him collecting vintage slides, so wearing the neckerchief isn't a problem either. The only thing he wears just to make SM happy is the socks...not bad I figure. SM asks the questions in a friendly way. I've never seen one of the boys to be real uncomfortable or embarressed by it. He doesn't ask it of the new boys since they are still getting to know him and the rest of the troop...he asks the older boys...you know - the SPL, the Eagle, the 17 yo Life working on Eagle......the guys that have no excuse not to be in full uniform. YiS Michelle

Thanks to everybody who has responded thus far. I am the Webelos I leader (no II's this year) and I want to make sure I prepare these parents better than I was prepared when I was the AWDL/CM during Nephew's tenure/transition. I'll talk to the SM and see if he will come in and visit/chat with my boys & parents, as has been mentioned face time is important and useful. Thanks again and I look forward to more good advice. YiS Michelle

After reading this thread I decided to look up some former schools that I attended in other states. All of them are still standing according to their websites...and have the same familiar look. I consider myself lucky to be living in the same town I went to Jr & Sr. High in. The Jr High is still standing but will soon be converted to Senior Citizen Housing while the Sr. High has undergone many add ons but still has the same look it did when I went there. Nephew attends the same consolidated school I started 1st grade in many years ago (he's a 7th grader there now)....his 1st grade teacher (who is still teaching, btw) was MY first grade teacher 33 years ago...at least something has stayed the same. On the other hand, the hospital I was born in (the same one as both of my parents) closed 22 years ago. The building still stands and houses the town's clinic, but it is no longer a hospital. YiS Michelle

Nephew's SM wears the full uniform and expects the boys to be in their full uniform (yes, including socks and belt) at every meeting and asks them why they aren't...."you had to put on pants anyway, so why not your uniform pants?" type thing. Nephew wears his full uniform to nearly all of meetings....well, to all of them now. The one time he didn't change and put on scout socks they had an inspection and that was the only thing wrong w/ his uniform. He has changed clothes in the car on several occassions to make sure he is in the right clothes. YiS Michelle

There have been much discussion about how to prepare the Webelos themselves for the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. But, how do you prepare the parents? Boy Scouts is an entirely different world than Cub Scouts and it is as much of a shock to the parents as it is to the boys. One thing I have learned from my own experience (Nephew bridged over nearly 2 years ago) is that the boys need time to be boys, complete with mistakes. I have made it a specific point NOT to go on any camping trips or camporees - with the exception of 2 camporees close to home as a 20 minute visitor and going out to BS Camp on family day. I know I would be tougher on him than I would probably be on another scout (you always seem to hold your own to a higher standard). I also know he learned self-reliance faster w/o me being there...that higher standard also brings with it an over-eagerness to help even when its not asked for or needed. I think this has been the best course of action because he has said to me since "Tia, when are you going to come stay at Boy Scout camp with us?". There are two boys about his age in the Troop with highly involved parents - they chaperone every trip, chaperone camp, etc. Both of those boys have tried to get their adult to stay home from various activities so they could breathe. On the rare occassions when either is successful they seem to come home from the trip happier and exuding excitment over the trip. That made me think that one of the first pieces of advice I'd give the guardian of a new Boy Scout is "stay away" when it comes to overnights. He isn't made of glass or TNT. If he has to pick up his own sleeping bag or ask an older boy for help getting his pack on he will be better for it. Go to Troop meetings so you know what is going on but let him have time away without you. I guess its a trick to find the line between too involved and uninvolved. I don't mean Troops should create rules to forbid New Parents from attending overnites. Heck, I'm not a big camper but I know that if I was told I could not go w/ Nephew because he was a first year I'd be looking for a new Troop. I'm thinking more of encouraging them to give their boys time and space. How do you prepare your Webelos parents? Are there specifics that Webelos parents should be understanding before their darlings run off to the big world of "Boy Led"? Troops - do you encourage, discourage or stay neutral on parents of New Scouts attending camp outs? Do you role new parents right into major, active Troop positions (ASM, etc) or do you encourage them to take a more hands off approach (MC, MBC, etc)? YiS Michelle

In regards to meeting time/night, both our Pack and Troop meet on Sundays. The Pack meets from 3-430pm and the Troop meets from 630-8pm. This has reduced the conflicts either group has had w/ sports and afterschool activities...and also parent activities such as PTO, Fire Department, etc. YiS Michelle

I don't see any real reason why it wouldn't be allowed for the parent to have his boychild join your Den...but then again our Pack only has 1 of each rank, so I'm not real familiar with the politics of having multi dens and who goes to which den. Have you talked to your CM and the other DL? My thought would be that it would be better to have the boy switch dens instead of losing him due to a conflict of any kind with a den leader. YiS Michelle(This message has been edited by msnowman)

You say he's had one meeting where he has had an adult partner. Did something change in Tigers just recently? I was still under the impression that all Tigers must have an Adult Partner at ALL activities. If he is really coming with no adult partner that is the one thing that needs to be addressed and fixed. I know the Tiger program underwent some changes this year, but afaik the Adult Partner thing is still a must (though someone with better knowledge than mine may be able to correct me if I'm wrong - always ready to learn). Is there anything about Tigers/Cub Scouts that he does like? I have a Web I who can be very disruptive (though without the bad attitude - he is more of the "wow, she's hot" type right now). I put him to work with the things he enjoys doing, putting him on stage, etc. If there is something he does like, get him headed in that direction. When Nephew was a Cub Scout the other boy in his den who was only there because of his mother. She was a "he's my last chance at Eagle" mom. This boy professed to HATE everything about Cub Scouts but we were able to find some things that he did enjoy. He made it thru AoL (took lots of prodding and work on the DL & my part). If he doesn't want to participate in what you are doing how about asking him and his adult partner to plan the activity for the next month? Sometimes giving them ownership of the program helps them find a way to enjoy it. Again, unless this changed this year, that is the theory (though not always the practice) behind Tiger Dens - a Den Leader and Shared leadership w/ all the Tiger pairs. As far as his threat towards the little girl - you say it was unprovoked. Were you with them the whole time? No, it is never okay to threaten someone - but perhaps she had been teasing him earlier. 4 and 6 or 7 isn't that far apart in age...Heck, in some states she would already be in kindergarten, thus just a year behind him. I'm not excusing his behavior (and again, if he had an adult partner, that should be the first person to deal with it), but I'm saying that maybe his comment was as unprovoked as you might initially believe. Bullying and threatening might be a good topic for your next den meeting...address the issue w/o mentioning names. Maybe some role play games, being sure to let this boy take a shot at being victim. Good luck YiS Michelle

kahits - I am not a SM, nor do I play one on TV. However, Nephew is a member of a small Troop. Like yours it has 6 boys who regularly attend meetings, only about 4 who go on camp outs. Their SM is new to the position last Feb, but is a well experienced and enthusiastic Scouter. They must be doing something right because last fall they got one boy from a Troop from a neighboring town (and lost one to that same Troop). This fall they got 2 from that same Troop (and lost zero). The Web II leader from the neighboring town is having her Den camp w/ this Troop to encourage cross over to this Troop. It is a very young Troop - highest rank active is almost 14 Life. There is one 17 yo Life who is working on Eagle, but his attendence is erratic at best. They just keep plugging away. They camp out at least once a month. They go on District camporees. They hold interesting Troop meetings (outdoors even - whoda thunkit?). Their brother Pack is growing again (we have Web I's thru Tiger), they are rebuilding that relationship with Den Chiefs, etc. Have you tried to send DC's to the Pack (or Packs)? If you are looking at area Packs as a way to grow the Troop (I hate the phrase "Feeder") building a relationship is important. That way the boys and, by extension the parents, know who you are, what you and your Troop are about, etc. Don't wait to DC when the boys are Webelos. Get 'em young, when they want to be impressed by the Big Boys. Invite a whole Pack to a service project you are doing (cleaning a town park has elements that even Tigers can do). Offer to help w/ Blue & Gold, PWD, etc. Get seen and noticed. As far as recruiting currect Boy Scout aged boys - bribery might work to get your guys to bring a friend. Someone on this forum uses Reese's Cups as "coin o' the realm" to aid recruiting. Again, be seen - do a school night, get blurbs of activities put in the local paper, etc. Something will pay off. Good Luck YiS Michelle

I've never seen or heard of anything written as National Policy in regards to an amount for dues. From antedotal reports it seems to vary somewhat by Pack - some charge $5.00/month, others simply charge $100.00 for the year for everything, and some fall in between. Our Pack is a $5.00/month Pack and we still have to chase parents for dues. YiS Michelle

I don't know about the other positions but I do know that if a Den Chief takes DC training he is entitled to wear the trained strip. It will be interesting to see if this is one of those things that seem to vary by Council or if there is a solid answer. YiS Michelle

Pulling his Whittling Chip is an obvious definate. He was not handling his knife in a safe manner. You don't say how old the boy is, so I'm guessing he is a Bear or Web I....old enough to know that what he did is wrong and why and in how many ways it is wrong. I disagree with the suggestion to suspend him from Den meetings for any period of time. Chances are he won't be back. IMHO that ranks up there w/ a parent threatening "you can't go to Scouts if you don't do XYZ". However, requiring him to have a parent/guardian stay with him at den meetings and accompany him on pack outings for "X" period of time would be reasonable. The bullying needs to be dealt with as well. No, pulling a knife is never the right answer, but the bullies also can't be excused for their part in the incidents. 2 wrongs don't make a right and all that. And no, this isn't just "boys will be boys". Its too easy to write off things the boys do off with that line, instead of making them take responsibility for their actions. Good luck YiS Michelle

Thanks for the ideas Clyde. I appreciate the suggestions. Presenting the flags in front of the "whole" Pack sounds more intimidating than it is...our whole Pack is only 13 boys (including the two Webelos). Since all of our Dens meet at the same time for den meetings (we use different rooms at the church hall), doing flags at a den meeting amounts to the same thing. I know he will do fine, he knows I won't ask him to do something he isn't ready to do. If he gets a case of stage fright he knows he can postpone it a month. YiS Michelle

As a kid of the 70's I loved HR Puffenstuff (and the other Sid and Marty Croft shows...they all looked a like) for Saturday morning tv. I remember watching the Mike Douglas show when I got home from school, while waiting for my mother to finish dinner. Of course some time was spent with that weird new game called Pong with the red console. Tuesday nights were reserved for Happy Days and Laverne and Shirley. I think Thursday were for Mork and Mindy and Sunday was Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and Wonderful World of Disney. The Waltons and Little House on the Prairie fit in there somewhere. Of course now I am a reality tv junkie - Survivor, Amazing Race, Big Brother, Iron Chef America (does that count?), but no, no, no American Idol. America's Got Talent? Sure, if by talent you mean a certain "train-wreck" quality. I'm also hooked on Hero's and CSI. I'm a recovering Gilmore Girls watcher (don't even get me started there, lol). Oh yea, and I love "Are You Being Served?", "Keeping up Appearances" and Alistair from "Cash in the Attic". And I still cry thru the Waltons. YiS Michelle

My Webelos I's are both (yes, just the two) getting ready to plan their flag ceremonies. First up for November is my shyest Web. His reasoning for taking the first month? "Might as well get it out of the way first". Fair enough, can't blame him there. He knows he has to plan it, but sometimes a bit of guidance is needed. I'm third in line to provide help - I figure he should try to come up w/ something of his own first, go to his DC second and me as a last resort. How have you handled the "plan a flag ceremony" in your groups? He will be doing this at the Pack level (we are small enough to have that luxury). Any suggestions for a ceremony that is simple but meaningful? I was thinking (if needed, otherwise for a ceremony sometime in the future) that darkening the room, with a simple spotlight on the US flag, accompanied by a reading of "Face the Flag my son" would be very nice. Like I said, I have considered using that later in the Scout year (maybe for Blue & Gold) if neither Web needs to borrow the suggestion sooner. YiS Michelle

I'd like to thank everybody who has taken the time to give me suggestions and ideas because that brings hope. nldscout - when I said "so its whatever his SM, Dr and I would decide to be best for him. " it was meant as a response to "his parents..." I didn't mean anything more...just simply that the decision would fall on my shoulders and not his parents. It was not meant to imply that the 3 of us could/would/should bypass channels, just that his parents are not part of the decision making process (not limited to, but including whether we appyly for alternative requirements or not). The paperwork part doesn't scare me....I'm an office manager...lol. As far as eductional administrator statement - that's a piece of cake - he has several along those lines in his perm school file. I refuse to sell him short and let him take a medical pass if there is something that can help him overcome this....he's a good kid who got a rough start in life. Thank you all again for giving me directions to explore. When I started this thread I hurt so much for him that I was typing w/ tears in my eyes, but now I have a more hopeful outlook. YiS Michelle

Lisabob - Yes, his SM knows what's going on...its usually his bathroom Nephew is being sick in (has an indoor pool and has offered to work w/ Nephew for the swimming thing), so he has seen it first hand. I haven't approached him about pursuing the possibility of alternative requirements because I've been looking at this as an anxiety issue and have been trying to find an way to deal w/ the anxiety so that he can relax enough to swim. As far as being developmentally delayed - I hadn't looked at it that way before because he's always been like this. In elementary school he had problems controlling his body in relation to his space. His handwriting has always been atrocious and he has never been able to stay inside the lines coloring. As far as larger muscle groups - he runs (excuse the expression) like he has a stick in an impolite place...very stiff and upright, with an odd, loping sort of stride. When he tries to swim its w/ much flailing of the arms and legs because he can't get them coordinated to work together (the same coordination is lost when he tries to ride a bike, the legs can't work with his upper body). Its always been chalked up to being a bit of a klutz. He's the kid that falls down the stairs because he mis-stepped (that was Sunday morning). Thanks for asking the questions....more angles to exam a problem from is helpful. YiS Michelle

Trev - thanks for the encouragement. I do try not to push but know that I do fall short there. I like to swim so I don't understand being afraid of the water. He has taken lessons and they helped some...he learned the mechanics in the shallow end but still wouldn't venture into the deep end. I tend to agree w/ B-P, every person should know how to swim well. Other than the stamina that comes from practice I don't know as though he is physically unable to do the swimming requirement. Granted, his running stride is very awkward (he sort of lopes, its a coordinationg thing)...its just trying to get him over his fear of drowning. His head keeps him from being able to do it (its awfully hard to swim when you are either in the bathroom vomiting or so worried about drowning that you stand in water up to your belly-button nearly paralyzed by the stuff in your head). He spends half of his swim lesson just trying to get his face wet. Last year he was asked "what is your goal in Scouts?" He said to pass the swim test for 1st class so he "never has to swim again". He knows that the Eagle requirement is Swimming OR Hiking OR Biking...he says "I can walk" (doesn't have the motor control/coordination to ride a bike, numerous attempts to learn have failed miserably....the same lack of motor control that makes cutting w/ scissors an exercise in futility) His parents are....to be kind...uninvolved, so its whatever his SM, Dr and I would decide to be best for him. YiS Michelle

Nephew has been w/ his Troop for nearly 2 years. He's a 2nd Class Scout (just barely passed the beginner's swim test at summer camp summer before last). The only thing keeping him from 1st Class is the swim test. He gets physically ill at the thought of getting in the water (and no, I'm not embellishing, the last half dozen times he has been at the pool for swim practice he ends up in the bathroom vomiting). He is absolutely convinced he is going to drown because he can't touch bottom. I've tried to explain to him that he isn't going to drown, that that's what the lifeguards are for, etc. It doesn't help, he works himself into a perfect tizzy about getting in to water over his head. How he managed to find the courage to do the beginner's test I don't know. I've tried the "well you could do it for beginner's, this is just a bit longer" and he gets all tense and defensive and says "but I almost drowned". I've considered having him put on anti-anxiety meds for swimming, but that seems like an extreme solution to this one problem. He came to swimming late (9 yo), and he isn't comfortable in the water (if the above didn't explain that already). I love to swim and love being in the water (okay, so I don't swim well, but I can float like nobody's business) so this isn't an anxiety he has picked up from me. Nobody else in his family swims, his father is afraid of the water and his mother isn't allowed to swim (seizure disorder). I don't know how to help him. I can't make him swim. I can't make him get over his fears. This isn't even about Scouts, except it is the thing that is forcing swimming on him. I don't care if he ever makes 1st Class as long as he is enjoying what he's doing, but he does care. He wants to be 1st Class so he can make Eagle. I don't want to see him drop out due to frustration over 1 requirement and know that I did nothing to try to help. I don't know as though anxiety would/could/should count as a reason for a medical exception. I haven't presented that as an option to him. I just don't have any idea where to go from here to help. Any advice? YiS Michelle(This message has been edited by msnowman)

Our Council's rules on wheels touching for the last 3 years has been that all 4 must touch. This wasn't the rule 4 years ago when Nephew had his best Pack Overall Finish (2nd and a chance to go to the District Race). He has enjoyed helping me explain the rules each January to new boys in the Pack by explaining that "This car was legal when it raced but now would get me kicked out". He even does the tippy test to make sure each car has 4 wheels touching so nobody gets dq'd. Its little things like that which prompted our Pack to host a Car Pick Up and Rules Review event each January. The rules do change and often vary from what you find on the internet (since some are Council dependent). We hand out the cars, the rules, explain the rules, give tips and have sample cars from previous years. We even have a short length of the old track to hook the fresh faces on racing. This year we hope to add a seperate PWD workshop for those boys with nobody to help them. YiS Michelle

Nephew made his first hiking staff this summer after losing a $3.00 one at camp. His father had chain sawed an Alder that had come down on the property and Nephew snagged a chunk of it. For him it was a first time ever to skin a tree, learn how to use a palm sander, stain and poly. He is soooo proud of his stick. He makes sure he tells everybody "I did this myself". He used a very light stain, so that the nature of the wood comes thru and didn't sand it so completely as to lose all of the character of it. And I lost it this weekend....fortunatly it was found and turned in...otherwise I'd have broken his heart. YiS Michelle

Gonzo - I agree - Scoutmasters should be men. I don't know jack about being a man. I can help Nephew learn how to be a good Person, but not specifically a good Man...that's why I have declined to become an ASM w/ his Troop (though I am finally on the hook as a MC). Last time I checked the GSA site, adult males could be leaders, there but also has to be an adult female leader. If you are going to allow coed leaders, that seems like a reasonable solution. I have always found it odd that BSA allows just female leaders on a BOY scout overnighter....I asked Nephew "If you fell across a log and hurt your preciousness would you rather go to XX Female Leader or XY Male Leader?" Without a second hesitation his answer was XY SPL, with XY Male Leader as second choice...going to XX Female Leader came a distant fourth....after suffering on his on. I also agree w/ Kudu (though I still take exception to the choice of phrasing about Yellow Shirts) that if you aren't an outdoor person (male or female) stay out of the dang outdoor program. Training needs for Boy Scout Scouters and Cub Scout Scouters seem to be quite different...perhaps instead of watering down the program to fit both there should have been a seperate program for each level. After all, SM training isn't the same as CM training. Webelos Leader Outdoor Training is different from SM training. YiS Michelle