msnowman

This is a battle within myself that I hope I am not losing too often, finding the line between pushing Nephew and encouraging him. I know, it shouldn't seem that you have to push or encourage a 2nd or 1st Class bound Scout, but sometimes there are personal hurdles to be overcome (in his case, swimming). I try very hard to encourage him and to support him, letting him know that IF he is ready to go back for swimming practice to feel ready for trying for 1st class, I'll drive him to the Y everyday, once a week, whatever it is HE wants (and yes, it is a big deal, that is 60 miles round trip). I am trying to give him the tools to succeed but not make the choice for him. If that was the case, he would have learned to swim 7 years ago. I know that experience can be the best teacher, so I work at letting him set his own pace, decide what he is going to pack for camporee, if he is going to call XYZ MBC counselor, etc (as a compulsive planner, you have no idea how hard that is). This is his time to learn. Maybe he won't get as far as I would have hoped for, but as long as he comes out a better person for taking the journey, I guess in the end that is all that matters. I can remind him, make suggestions (sometimes even waiting for a suggestion to be asked for before jumping in), but the rest is up to him. Now if I could just believe all of that....knowing it and believing it are sometimes mutually exclusive concepts. YiS Michelle

If your Pack is like ours, it has two seperate "years" that it runs. The Charter year is Jan to Dec, but the program year usually ends up being Sept to June. I'm retiring as CM at the end of this charter year (December) and the Pack will have to forge on without me. They have known a new CM was going to be needed since Sept, 2004, so the parents have had plenty of time to step up to task set before them to conduct a program for their boys as I did when mine was in the Pack. Good luck and keep plugging away, as frustrating as it may be, being part of your Scouts Pack will be some of the most rewarding time you spend with him. YiS Michelle

I've been reading this thread with great interest. Nephew and I have been having conversations along this vein for the last couple of weeks. On the one hand he wants to say he is agnostic because "it sounds cooler". On the other, when asked to explain what it means to be agnostic he said "It means I believe in something higher than me, I'm just not sure what that is". As a family we do not subscribe to a specific religion. My mother didn't believe in shoving religion down our throats so we were left to form our own beliefs and commune/serve/pray with/to our choosen God in our own fashion. He also enjoyed taking the Religious class for the Methodist as a Webelos and he does have a belief in a higher power. Does that preclude him from being able to remain a Scout? He isn't done forming his opinions, he is just exploring....and as he put it "being an agnostic is cool". Michelle

Anarchist asks if there are any Scout camps that use cabins. Well, perhaps that depends on your defination of a cabin. Camp Roosevelt, the Scout Camp for the Katahdin Area Council has tents and Adirondaks. An Adirondak, at our Scout Camp is a structure with 3 wooden sides, a screened in front, a shingled roof, solid wooden floor (as opposed to the pallets that the tents are set on in the tent sites), 4 bunks, a screen door and no electricity. These are used year round at KSR (Katahdin Scout Reservation) and not just during Cub Camp/Pal & Me. About 1/2 or so of the sites at KSR have these structures. The most popular thing about them seem to be the fewer number of mosquitos. If those are cabins, then yes, at least one Council uses cabins year round at Scout camp. ETA - During the winter there is still plenty of tent camping going out at KSR. When our Web II's went out to visit at Chillout last February, there were a large number of groups using tents. Michelle(This message has been edited by msnowman)

In regards to Cabin camping - our Scout Camp has sites that are tented (no problem, we know those count) and some sites that have Adirondaks. Since the Adirondaks are enclosed and made of wood, they would probably best be considered cabins, though ones without electricity. So, does this mean that a Troop that draws the Addies as their site doesn't get to count those nights towards the Camping MB? And who, ultimately decides if it counts? My guess would be the MBC, which for our Troop happens to be SM. Michelle

In watching my nephew, my experience is the opposite of Hunt's. Nephew has a far easier time approaching strange adults as he has been doing it for several years. He orders his own food at restaurants (not just shouting in the clown's mouth), asks for help finding something in a store, makes his own purchases, etc. We've had/let/made him do this for practice, so he isn't as shy and reluctant to ask for help as his mother still is. However, approaching a member of your peer group, even an extended peer group like a mixed age Patrol, is another story. For him they are harder to approach because he is more concerned with sounding like a "baby" if he needs help. Not wanting to look "uncool" to his peer group, to older boys he looks up to, etc is the reason fro the nudges, pushes and shoves in that direction, to help him learn to overcome that reluctance. Talking to his SM or ASM is easy in comparison to talking to his SPL/PL. Funny sometimes the different things that will trip our boys up on their journey to adulthood. Michelle (edited because punctuation is my friend)(This message has been edited by msnowman)

Anachist - I'm not lisabob (nor do I play her on tv), but I did start the thread, so I thought I'd add my 2 coppers in. 1 - if I wasn't prepared for probing questions I wouldn't have posted here. My skin is thicker than that (I hope, though not as thick as that of a Vogon). For my part, feel free to ask/say what you'd like. What I don't like or really have issue with I'll ignore. /smile 2 - Our troop does not have an NSP, nor a Troop Guide. 3 - Nephew has been on all 3 camping trips the troop has taken. He earned Totin' Chip on the first one, a month after crossing over. 4 - He and I have both read his book together. 5 - He did 2 weeks of summer camp (Troop week and Provisional week). He has already asked if he can do all 4 weeks next year. 6 - What isn't he learning specifically? Its more like what does he need a chance to do to show he can. He needs his 5 mile map & compass hike (2nd Class, 1B). I can not do the hike with him for medical reasons and I'm sorry, since the buddy system is such a big thing in scouting you will never convince me to let him do a 5 mile hike by himself. He needs the chance to choose the Patrol camping site (2nd Class 2B), lighting a fire and a lightweight stove (2nd Class 2F) and Cook over an open fire (2nd Class 2G). He hasn't gotten 2D signed off yet but that is easy enough as there are mulitple oppurtunities at any camping experience to do that...nobody wants to work to make fire wood & kindling, and 2E is a discuss and explain which we have been working at home and he will just need to get someone to listen to him to get that signed off. That's why I'm frustrated with this Troop. He specifically needs to pick the Patrol site but couldn't get a straight answer when he asked for help. Nobody else is left that HAS to do it and he asked for a chance and got the non-answer from Hades. I'm a bit afraid of fire, so I'm not the right one to teach him how to light a campfire or lightweight stove. Again, he just needs someone to be willing to give him a shot during the camping trip. Part of the build up for this Camporee is that if anybody needs their 5 miler there are several trails that fit that range. He just needs to find someone willing to go with him. This, apparently, is where my undereducation in Boys Scouting comes...thus my frustration with this Troop. He doesn't need nightly Classes, Achievement Factory or spoon feeding, he just needs someone to give him his shot to pick the Patrol camp site and cook breakfast. I'll give you that nothing in the requirements say that the hike and the fire lighting has to be done on a Patrol or Troop camping trip, but the Patrol camp site and the cooking thing certainly does. Asking for help at (almost) 12 years old isn't easy, especially when its older boys you are asking. You don't want to look like a baby in front of them, so it takes everything you can muster to ask for help. With the reception he got this time, it will be dang hard getting him to ask someone else another time. As far as volunteering to be a mentor for the new scouts, apparently I already am, but I should never be the one signing off anything he does, so that is still not an answer YiS Michelle (nothing but love for ya anachist).

Thank you for all the replies. Nephew does not miss ANY scouting activity - Troop meetings, Campouts (which this Troop is currently only doing when there is a District Camporee), CoHs, 2 weeks of Camp, etc. There are no individual Patrol meetings, just weekly Troop meetings, during which the Patrols may meet for 15 minutes or so. There are no specific advancement activities planned or carried out during the meetings. So far, all of his work for advancement has either been learned at home or at camp and then signed off by one of the boys in the Troop (The sign offs in this Troop can be done by anybody at least 1 rank higher). I'm not asking for anybody to spoon feed anybody else. However, if we wanted to do all of the learning solely at home we wouldn't bother with Scouting. It isn't Cub Scouts, the parents aren't the ones to sign things off, I don't think they should be the only ones doing the teaching. The book can back up practical lessons and offer the mechanics in theory...but learning to tie a knot is a bunch easier when there is someone showing you how...lighting a fire or stove would be much the same way. Agreed that reading the book is very important for learning the pieces, basics, etc. But, I believe the book needs to be partnered with practicals. He knows he will be unlikely to make 1st Class in his first year as swimming is still an issue, but he takes great pride in knowing he has at least passed the 2nd Class swim requirement (even if it was just barely). He would like to be able to finish 2nd Class this year so he can focus more time on improving his swimming. I will suggest talking to his SPL as his next step. I will not talk to anybody on his behalf until he has at least made the attempt himself first. My job (as his Adult), as I see it is to offer direction as necessary, not do it for him. I do occassionally talk to the SM or an ASM when I need a direction to point him in, since there are parts I'm not sure about. Meanwhile, I'll hold my breath and see what changes come when the current SM and CC step down at recharter. Thanks again Michelle

Nephew's troop is small and does not have a NSP. He is Tenderfoot working on 2nd class and is the lowest ranking scout in his Troop (Bridged last March). He has a few things left to do to finish up 2nd class, most of which could be finished at the upcoming camping trip, if he had someone to work with him to teach him the skills he needs (starting a fire, map & compass hike, mostly #1 & #2). So, I suggested to him that he talk to his PL, telling him that he needed help with some of his requirements and could they help him. The answer he received? "We'll cross that bridge when we get to it". So, before I say anything further to him, am I expecting too much from his Star PL? He is in a Patrol with 2 Stars and 1 First Class (soon to be Star). Regardless, where do I go from here? I can't help him with the skills he needs (I don't camp and couldn't start a fire if I was sitting on the sun). And if we have to find all of our own sources to teach him these skills I could save a bundle of money and simply take him out of scouting....which is not a solution anyway. So...do I need to take a deep breath and shut up and find someone outside of the Troop to teach him the things he isn't learning? Or should I direct him to talk to someone further in his Troop (I was thinking SPL then SM if no better luck with SPL). I'm not content with scouting experience he has received so far in this Troop but right now he'd rather lose a limb than change Troops. Since its not my scouting experience, I have no right to force a change on him, so I'm trying to figure out how to make this a better experience for him. Thank you for your patience and suggestions. Michelle

I'm involved in the ceremony as the CM, not necessarily as the DL. In our Pack, the DL's normally participate in rank advancement ceremonies as Parent and not as Leader. The CM conducts the ceremony and makes the presentation. I'm not saying this is the way it is supposed to be or should be, just that this is the way it is with our Pack. That's why I had to ask, our Pack hasn't had a Den Chief in the last 5 years, so I've never even been to a Pack meeting that had a Den Chief, this is all new territory for me...well, for all of the current Pack leadership. I'm glad to know that he can and should be involved. That was my personal feeling, but as this Den Chief is my personal scout, I was concerned that I wasn't doing a good job of seperating my roles. Michelle CM/DL - P102

I'm the CM/DL for our combo Wolf/Bear den. We had one boy complete Bobcat Sunday and I fully anticipate the other finishing by next Sunday (only has the Child Protection part left). My Den Chief played a decent sized role in helping them thru Bobcat. He is the one who suggested the "Bobcat Progress Card" and the sticker tracking (one small smiley face sticker on each of the 8 points as it is completed and then a big smiley face in the center when the whole thing is complete). He worked with each of them at each Den meeting to see how they were progressing and to help them along. I'd think he earned a place in this particular ceremony, but perhaps that sort of thing isn't done or appropriate. Have any of you ever used your Den Chief in your advancement Ceremonies? I'm working on mine right now (Pack meeting is in 2 weeks) and our Pack hasn't had a Den Chief during my tenure as CM, so I'm not sure if the Den Chief can/should be included in the ceremony. BTW - Yes, I remembered that immediate recognition is important. After Brand New Bear got the last piece signed off Sunday I announced it, stuck a Bobcat Sticker on his shirt where his badge will go, he got to post his Bobcat Progress Card up on our bulletin board and then we had "joyous treats" to celebrate. He just has to wait til the Pack meeting in 2 weeks to get his cloth badge. Thanks for your help Michelle CM/DL - P102

"How about wearing a long-sleeved uniform shirt. Hang up the short-sleeved shirt until summer." Sounds simple enough, but when money is an issue it isn't always that easy. I would think wearing a clean LS tshirt/thermal, etc under the short sleeve shirt would be better than not wearing any uniform shirt at all. Ebay has helped stretch the family uniforming budget, but for some families that would still be hard. YMMV Michelle

I agree that he didn't live up to the ideals of the Scout Law. However, I have to wonder whether the Scout Law leaves no room for remorse/regret and learning from ones....poor judgement (to be gracious). Setting attendence aside for a moment. The boy has admitted to the transgression and has taken steps to rectify it. Now I'm not saying rush right out and give him his Eagle just because he found someone to sign his MB card. Right now he is not Eagle material (in my opinion). But, I don't think a blanket "now he can never be an Eagle because he did this once" would be fair either. If he wants to be an Eagle he should be allowed the opportunity to prove that he can live the Scout Oath/Law, and then come back before a BOR to prove himself. I don't believe that would take anything away from boys who earned it before him who didn't have to look themselves in the mirror each morning knowing they lied and have to rebuild that trust. We all get and need second chances in life. Scouting is life, the rest is just details. YiS Michelle

EagleinKY said "I took it that the pack situation was just used as an example, which led to msnowman's question " I was wondering - is it ever appropriate for an adult (when the floor is open for suggestions) to present an activity idea?" We ran with the question as being "Is it ever appropriate for an adult to suggest an activity idea to the PLC?". We've then been talking about methods of achieving that, within the boy-led system. msnowman - am I correct?" Yes, that is essentially what I was asking...Is it ever appropriate for an adult to offer an activity suggestion to the Troop either via the PLC, directly to the SPL or otherwise. I'm sorry if I caused confusion. I was using the Pack meeting as an example of being on board with the idea of Boy Led. Nephew did it as a Webelos just to try Boy Led before he hit the Troop and had a great time and his meeting was a big success. The Den Chiefs (one is Nephew, the other is his friend, a frequent guest at our home) approached me as CM to ask if they could conduct a Pack meeting. Since December is tradtionally our "party" month, I told them they could plan December's. We will be sitting down together to work things out (for example, they need to know and be sure to include certain things in every meeting like an opening, awards & closing) but it has nothing to do with Troop leadership or Troop committee, it is something they want to try. Again - thanks to everybody for your input...this is exactly the kind of help I was hoping to find. Michelle CM - P102 DL - P102

Since acco40 asked, I had to go look it up to see for myself...and ya know, the only place I specifically found a caveat against double dipping is in the AoL requirements, number 4 (With your Webelos den, visit at least one Boy Scout troop meeting, one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity.(If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award requirements.) and number 5 (Participate in a Webelos overnight campout or day hike. (If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award requirements.) ). So, I guess we can use one achievement to cover as many achievements/electives as we need to. Which would make the answer to the initial question - Sure, use it for both if it meets the requirements. Definately makes things easier for parents. /smile Yis Michelle ETA - I would delete my above post, since I totally stand corrected, but then references to it wouldn't make sense for anybody else to read.(This message has been edited by msnowman)(This message has been edited by msnowman)

I would be concerned about "double dipping" if the exact activity was being used to cover two different requirements. For example, taking a family hike at a Wildlife Refuge couldn't be used for both 5d (visit a zoo, aviary, wildlife refuge) and 12b (take a hike with your family), as it is one event. However, in my mind, the birdfeeder thing could be counted as two seperate things as there were two seperate activities going on. I think of it like this - if we made birdfeeders on week, thats one thing. If, in the next meeting we decorated those same birdfeeders (or completely different ones), that's another thing. The example MBscoutmom uses is another example, they had many different elements taking place on one outing. I don't think the rule against double dipping was meant to say you can't work on more than 1 requirement at a time. My Wolf/Bear den took a trip to the local police station and had their fingerprints done while they were there. That fits both 7a & 7b, and I wouldn't consider it double dipping since the activities are different. Yis YMMV Michelle

Thank you all for the hints, tips, thoughts. Train wrecks - gotta let them happen, that's the best educator, as long as nobody gets physically injured. I'm not of the warm & fuzzy "nobody's feelings get hurt" school - that's a learning experience too. This troop has no NSP, Nephew is a new Tenderfoot and is the youngest Scout in the Troop. The troop is small (though not as small as the Pack) at about 10 - 12 boys, and it is pretty 14+ heavy. Only 3 Scouts are under 14 and 2 of them are already first class (they were the class ahead of Nephew). The Pack isn't bridging anybody in, so there are no younger ones expected in the immediate future. I'll continue to live in the shadows, stepping forward once in a while with a suggestion, question or MRE's (a big hit at the last Camporee). I'm avoiding taking an active role in troop adult leadership as I want Nephew to stand on his own and just rely on me for rides and checks. LOL Michelle

1 - First are you a registered scouter? - Yup, but not in the troop yet. 2 - This particular Troop does a very...um....laid back approach to calendars. (That's actually been the biggest struggle for me to get used to in coming from the Pack. Boy led? No sweat. No calendar? ARGH!) 3 - We don't have ASM's mentoring any patrol. The ASM's and SM are far more hands off (sometimes, almost to the point of being ineffectual, but I hold my own council on that since I am not willing to be an SM or ASM and figure they are doing what they feel is best). 4 - Giving the ball to Nephew - That is the option I go for most of the time. It gives him something to contribute and be excited about. I stay for Troop meetings, back in the corner with the other parents and rarely speak up unless I have a question or concern (Sunday they were working on an outing for the first weekend in November. I raised my hand for the SPL to see me and asked if that meant the Troop was not doing SFF. He didn't know it was the same weekend). Generally speaking, I figure I am at Troop meetings to write checks and because Nephew can't drive (oh goodness, 16 is just over 4 years away) and gas is too expensive to drive all the way home and back again in an hour and a half. Maybe Merit Badge Counselor Michelle

I fully appreciate that Boy Scouts is boy led. I think its a grand idea. When the Pack's two den chiefs asked if they could plan and lead a Pack meeting I was all for it (December is all theirs). However, as I am still finding my way in Nephew's troop I was wondering - is it ever appropriate for an adult (when the floor is open for suggestions) to present an activity idea? I don't mean insist on it being done, but offer it as an available option? For example, doing a rescue situation...it might be a nice suggestion, but maybe the guys haven't thought of it as an option. Right now I don't say anything because I don't want to rain on boy led...so I'll ask here. Michelle

Agreed Eamonn - our Pack as very little equipment and almost none of it useful to anybody outside of Cub Scouting - a Pinewood Derby Track, a bridge and a bunch of craft supplies. No question that all belongs to the CO until they decide otherwise...the most useful things we have for our CO would be our paper products...afterall, what church can't use more plastic forks/knives/spoons/cups, etc? LOL Fortunatly for us our COR is very active in Scouting (at the local, district and council levels), but he is the only member of the church who is. As far as what the Pack has on account, I have no idea, I am friends with the two people who are our check signers so I intentionally stay as far from that as I can, particularly since I have no business knowing what we do have in the bank. The only think I know is how much we have on account at the council store and that's only because I am authorized to purchase there. I know that once I step down as CM, I have no more say, but that doesn't stop me from being concern about the future of Cub Scouting in Orland, Maine. I am hoping to be able to go back to being "just" a Den Leader and let someone else have the joys of being CM. /smile And boy, don't I know why they suggest wearing just one hat. lol Michelle

This is refreshing - Nephew's troop is still wrestling with the idea of Patrols doing activities seperate from just Troop activities. There has been a long held belief that Patrols couldn't do activities on their own (adult supervision was immaterial to that specific debate). As far as "Any Tenderfoot should be have been able..." knowing what to do in theory and being able to apply it in practice are two seperate issues. An 11 year old BS may very well know how to do a splint and stretcher when it comes to pretend rescuing a buddy with a broken leg. Being able to keep ones head when faced with the real need to apply those lessons sometimes takes a little bit more. Maybe a more "realistic" training would be a good patrol/troop activity? Like departments conduct for PD/FD? Give them a chance to put the things they learn in comfortable, indoor settings into real world use. Sorry for the tangent. Michelle

FScouter - I have approached every single adult, individually, with positions that would suit their strengths. We have 3 who would be great in the CM position, its just that they aren't interested. I'm hoping the COR will have better luck. Michelle

CMJerry, yes, we do have a very small pack (down to 2 Wolves, 1 Bear and 3 Tigers) from a very small school (Under 170 for grades K-8). Our CO is a local Methodist church with a very...aging population, they don't even have a Sunday School because they have no youth. The CO ignores us unless we want to use the Parish Hall at the same time as one of the Church groups. Our COR is aware of the situation (he's also the DC) and agrees that it is time for the other parents to step up. He will be at our Pack meeting next week to give it a shot. The whole of Pack leadership/committee is myself (CM & W/B DL), CC, and the TL . Of those, only 1 is the parent of a scout. Zero of the other parents, even when asked directly, have been willing to step up. The two parents who had filled out adult apps have backed out. The MC we chartered last year have left the Pack as their boys have left the pack (one graduated out and the other dropped this fall to go out for drama). The ACM dropped out because of personal issues and the former WDL is now working 3 jobs and all of his Webs dropped out (family issues for one, and drama for the other two). Eamonn - I would like nothing more than to see the Pack continue. I am even willing to stay as ACM to help the new CM get their feet under them. I didn't mean it to sound like I'm jumping the gun, its the compulsive planner in me. We have til 12/31/05 to complete our rechartering and I am keeping my fingers crossed that somebody will step up, so I hope we have an Eamonn lurker in our Pack family so that the Pack will continue, after all, I have a den that I am making activity plans for, as well as a Den Chief who is dying to get his Den Chief award (minor thing to an adult perhaps, but a big goal for him). The parents have gotten the speech about the need for a CM...well, they have heard it, but I don't know if the reality of it has sunk in yet. They were told, in so many words, that I will not be rechartering as the CM and without a CM the Pack will not exist. I am hoping our COR will be able to get some of the reluctants to step up. Thanks all for letting me ask seemingly foolish questions here. Michelle CM - P102

A Unit folds? By most figuring our Pack will, unfortunately, not be rechartering this winter. None of the parents of current Cub Scouts are willing to step up and take on leadership roles, including CM. I've already told the parents that I will not be rechartering as CM and without a CM the Pack will fold. I have advised my COR & CC of this same thing. Before you say "The committee..." please understand that we have been working as a committee of 3 for the last year, so right or wrong I am 1/3 of the committee. The CC is also looking to retire from the Pack but is willing to stay another year. I've never seen a Unit folds, so I'm not sure what happens. Michelle CM - P102 (soon to be former)

My best training was the very first one I went to, about 4 years ago now. I learned the single most useful piece of information there "BSA does not stand for Baby Sitters of America". This came 2 months after I started as Wolf ADL and I wish it had come sooner. Michelle CM - P102