Gone

You could always make friends with the "rich white guys" and see if they would team up on a lower cost camp out.

Lord, you still miss the point. You may think the request is wrong but IT A SERVICE THE LODGE OFFERS!! Is your need to be right that overwhelming you cannot understand that? Krampus was spot on with the analogy. You are the one who does not get it. I'll stop with that.

"Do you like watching gladiator movies?"

When I was in CS we simply had all adults take YPT. It's 30 mins of their time, explains why we do YPT and gives an added layer of protection to you if something happens as long as you follow YPT.

My tribute to General Buck Turgidson.

...and not just from BSA.

Scouts simply don't need phones in camp. The whole reason for going to camp is to build self-assurance, develop new friendships and enjoy the outdoors away from technology. Leave the communication with back hom to the Scouters who are sending email updates and posting pictures online. They will get over being home sick by staying active. In my experience nearly every time I have seen a home sick kid be allowed to call home (not allowed in my troop, but have seen it many times in other troops) the Scout takes a nose dive and is essentially miserable the rest of the week and on the ride back. Lucky leaders, but they deserve it if they cave in. For over 8 years now we have not let a single kid call home when homesick and we have a 100% success rate in them bouncing back within 24 hours. We do make exceptions for kids who have suffered medical emergencies. Different kettle of fish that. But basic "I want mommy syndrome"? Go get an ice cream with your SPL at the Trading Post and take a swim...the kid will be fine.

See what Kayaker wrote as this is spot on. The course I took was through the Red Cross but the staff have been doing it for many, many years and have themselves gone through the instructor programs at those higher-end schools. They in turn bring in experts who teach ski patrols, mountain rescue, S&R teams, etc. The lead is a WFA physician and the staff are well prepared. The realism was incredible. We researched which course to take as Kayaker recommends, spoke to the staff and were satisfied we were getting a great course for a decent price. Was not cheap but well worth it. Oddly enough, I found much of what they taught as "advanced first aid" was similar (in part) to what we used to be taught in BSA all those many years ago. The other advanced first aid was truley wilderness and remote centric.

Took my recert for WRFA recently. I forgot what a great course this is. If your area offers it or you can get to one that does I highly recommend it. The hands-on scenarios and classroom work is invaluable to crews and units that spend time in the back country, as well as just basic unit camping and outings.

It is always the quality, not the quantity or the cost. Higher costs does not always = better. Some of the best times my guys have are with a fishing pole on a sunny day on a New York lake. Cost: About $10.

So why not the non-HA big trips? If the boys can plan it, fund it, execute it, why not? I don't agree with how some of the mega troops do things where the parents run and fund everything like a mini army. But those of us who raise our own money and do our own planning, why not do a few big trips every year or so? He died.

So why not the non-HA big trips? If the boys can plan it, fund it, execute it, why not? I don't agree with how some of the mega troops do things where the parents run and fund everything like a mini army. But those of us who raise our own money and do our own planning, why not do a few big trips every year or so?

@Faith, sounds like you have a good CM. Keep that line of communication open. Sounds like the Pack Committee will be addressing this issue since it affects more than one Den. One thing I did back in the day was to have a meeting with my parents before the Scout year began. We would discuss the upcoming Wolf or Bear schedule, what events we wanted to do, projects, crafts, etc., and try to ball park how much they would cost. I would then put all of that on the schedule and assign different families to purchase the stuff for each mtg. The money was taken out of the Den fund. This way everyone had buy-in to the planning, the costs, the process and the execution. No one could ever say "I did not approve that" and they had a stake in the game by needing to buy something. This helped keep the parents involved. If you don't do something like this now maybe this will help. I will say that I still had folks not fully engage or forget, but I always had a back-up plan. This process did make life easier for me because no one could deny they were involved.

No. What I am saying is that THE LODGE had only one tap out scheduled at camporee. My guys could not attend. Let the the LODGE know that months in advance. Their reply was "tough luck". *I* -- working with my Scouts -- offered the Lodge other options, all of which were viable options that had been used in the past, only for them to say "tough luck". Summer camp tap out is not an option for my guys, period. Yes our summer camp will offer it but since all of my guys are going to Philmont they cannot afford to attend both. So, having explored ALL option given to me by the LODGE, I am stuck with two choices: 1) Force guys to go to summer camp they cannot afford, or 2) not have a tap out. Yeah, and we do keep them secret. But I also asked the OA team lead if I can notify the parents and ask them to keep the secret -- simply because trying to arrange the schedules of 10+ guys is next to impossible. The OA team told me, "Sure. Parents are usually informed so they can get the Scouts to the event." While many Councils do tap out at camporee, not all of them do. So that's why parents are told. My dad was told all those years ago when I was elected, so not so sure telling parents is a new thing. So are you saying that *I* am doing that? If so you could not be further from the mark. I am trying to make sure my Scouts don't miss out on something just because an adult is on a power trip and does not want to step out of his mold. Other Lodges have told me they provide the very service I am asking for. Other units have told me they have tap out teams, which are part of their Lodge, that do other unit and their own tap outs. So if I was asking for something that did not exist I could see your consternation. But as I have said repeatedly in this thread, my solution is based on practices in other Lodges. Heck, my own Lodge used to do this very service before Mr. X took over and started to run things like 1939 Germany. Hyperbole? Sure! But after months of adults getting in the way, I am working WITH my boys to show them how to work the system in their favor. And no, for the record, my kid is not one of the boys. I get your implication -- I am doing this because my son is missing out on something. Not sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet on this. My guys want to be active in OA. My guys want to form a tap out and ordeal team. My guys do not want to miss their tap out. My guys were unable to attend the *one* Lodge tap out. My guys know that other Lodges (and their own Lodge used to) provide tap outs for units who could not make the planned tap out. My guys know that an adult is on a power trip and rather than helping them with these things -- which is what OA is partially about anyway -- this same person simply likes to say no. So *I* am teaching my guys that sometimes in Scouting you run into adults who have given up, don't care to do anything, don't care to help and will be road blocks to their success....and showing them how to handle such situations using the system. This is a life lesson for them and, frankly, what an ASM is for. I am not looking for your blessing on what I am doing. I am merely posting here so other adult leaders who may encouter such entrenched adults within BSA will know that there are options available to them that the BSA condones and supports, and so they will know that they can overcome an obstacle when someone says "no" when BSA actually says "yes". I think that's what they call leadership.

We do a big trip about once every year or two. We got,out of council for summer camp because our camp is not very good. Never by plane. Cars or if we are lucky and raised good money we use a bus.

So to your points: - Tried all other Districts and even other councils locally, no one is having a tap out that we can make. - Have talked with the Lodge chief (and Chapter Advisor) until I was blue in the face and he simply says "tough luck". So much for working with adults. - Checked with the youth lead in the Lodge and he is fine with doing a cermony for us, the ADULT won't let him. Again, adults getting in the way. - Checked with the Lodge Advisor (who runs many chapters) and he said the Chapter Advisor was being silly and that they should do the ceremony for us. - Tap out teams come from units like mine all the time and compete locally, regionally and nationally. Many times they put on their own unit's events, so this is nothing our of the ordinary. - The solution I landed on was 1) build a good relationship with the Lodge Advisor, 2) am building a tap out team to compete nationally, 3) have increased interest in the OA within my unit, 4) have increased the interest of the Arrowmen in my unit to become more involved in the OA, 5) have further earned the respect of my unit by sticking up for the boys when I felt we were right. So in the end I accomplished what was right for the boys AND had teh boys involved in the process. Not sure what you mean by "helicopter scouting" but if that is what I did I will take that any day over sitting on my butt and letting some adult on a power trip take a Scouting memory away from my boys.

Laser tag?? Might want to check out the thread below. Laser tag and paint ball are no-nos officially. http://www.scouter.com/forum/cub-scouts/16020-laser-tag Now, if you guys want to meet at Main Event or wherever as a group of people who just happen to be in Scouts together, that's up to you.

Liquid fuel (white gas) is allowed and sold at Philmont. My guess it each Council camp, state or National park will have their own rules. To my knowledge BSA has specifically stated certain stoves and fuel types are not allowed, such as alcohol-based stoves. Here's a link to the only policy I have seen: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf

Laser tag?? Might want to check out the thread below. Laser tag and paint ball are no-nos officially. http://www.scouter.com/forum/cub-scouts/16020-laser-tag Now, if you guys want to meet at Main Event or wherever as a group of people who just happen to be in Scouts together, that's up to you.

I have used both the bleach (weak bleach) and lemon juice treatments. Both oxidize the mold and kill it. For the lemon juice to be effective it is best to do it on a sunny day since it is the interaction of the lemon juice and sunlight which causes the oxidation and kills the mold.

No I get that. But I thought I heard that Faith's Pack was giving these kids the patches too. If that is the case I personally would not want any part of that. If the CM wants to award it, let him do it. But I'd be looking for a different Pack for my kids.