Gone

All good stuff. But the process and guidelines do more than suggest that the scouters be involved, not merely "sign and trust". I think we have a clash of schools here. The first is the old-school B-P approach which I laud. The second is the more modern (and convoluted) approach which our boys find themselves in. The reason I elect to be more involved is to prepare them for what lies beyond Eagle. I think the old-school approach does somethings right, but I think the latter approach helps to prepare them for the more modern expectations awaiting them. I try to use much of the old-school in the process, but believe leaving them totally to their own wits is not teaching them how to fish, but expecting them to come home with dinner.

I see in typical BSA fashion, they use the word "God" but fail to define "God". So the enterprising non-believer will simply define "God" on his own and then tell how he served that duty. Unless the BSA Police are out and about in every SMC I don't see them enforcing this one.

Hmmmm. Yes and no. If I am in a situation where I have a person who is going to die unless they get treatment I have just as much a chance of getting sued if I do something rather than do nothing. Having been in this situation more than once I can tell you the LAST thing I was concerned about was being sued. I was concerned about saving a life. My training helped me stay calm and administer the treatment. Our protocols helped make sure that professional help was obtained ASAP. The people made it to the hospital and the outcome was always good (thanking God and knocking wood). I agree with @@Hedgehog, we as leaders need to be HIGHLY trained in first aid. The basic and advanced Red Cross first aid courses are great. Basic and advanced WRFA will help MASSIVELY. BTW, in case anyone hasn't seen them, here's the BSA advice on food allergies.

There is a difference between treating someone with anaphylaxis and anaphylatic shock. Bendryll for the former is an acceptable first aid treatment under certain conditions. I agree that you never give if for the latter. But if you are in a remote situation and days away from first aid, you may not have a choice.

Yes, and the first aid and WFA training I had (and keep current) really helped. Using the epi pens and benadryl to counter the anaphylaxis was a HUGE help. As part of any tour prep we ALWAYS make sure we have hospital directions, a treatment protocol for any anaphylactic situation and a communication method (cell phone, personal locator beacon, care flight/air ambulance contact info, etc.). All of our scouters have this training so that we don't have a single point of failure. Thankfully we have a few physicians on our ASM staff too. That helps. Typically the first hit of the epi pen will take a min or so take begin to work, sometimes 3-5 mins and sometimes not at all. If you don't see any improvement immediately we usually administer a dose of benadryll. If we see improvement in the airway we monitor and are prepared to give the next epi pen hit. You might see some nausea or vomiting, which is why we give liquid or chewable benadryll. If we don't see any improvement we do the second pen hit. Obviously, at the first sign of an problem we have a two-deep (or more) team heading/calling for help. Always better safe than sorry. Any person (scout or adult) with an anaphylactic issue or history (or possibility of such a reaction) MUST have one, sometimes two, epi pens on store with our medical team. We know which people this issue affects and we keep an eye on them on all events. If we are hiking, we have the med forms and med bad with us...always. Think corpsman. We style our support on that model. Yes, former military. It works!

I disagree. That workbook is so convoluted and the process so disjointed I have parents that have extreme difficulty in understanding the process. We are here to advise and counsel. As with everything we do, we don't simply throw guys in the deep end...we teach them to swim and THEN throw them in the pool. As far as guidance is concerned, even the workbook mentions that "Guidance that maximizes the opportunity for completion of a worthwhile project will be readily available and strongly recommended." Seems even BSA suggests adult guidance of a sort. Actually, you can save signature until the draft plan is done and review both. There's nothing in the workbook the precludes any reviewer from seeing a draft copy of the final plan at the same time the proposal is done. All it says is, "Once your proposal is approved, you are strongly encouraged to complete the final plan form in this workbook." It think BSA does the candidate a disservice not REQUIRING the plan to be done along with the proposal. Let's face it. The proposal usually takes a certain level of work. The logical extension of it is the plan. In the business world you don't review a proposal, sign it (which authorizes work) without a plan on how to implement the proposal. All too often scouts are getting the signatures and then running off to implement their proposal without having an effective plan in place. I have seen FAR too many projects fail because there was no effective plan. Reason? The workbook does not require one. And how do you draw up an effective plan? The workbook seems designed by people who don't have the first clue about project management. Scouts need a bit of guidance on how to do that. I'm not suggesting we do a PMP-level education effort here, but teaching the boys the basics of project management and how to execute a project is a service well worth the rank of Eagle. Given all the stuff BSA screws up on, I am not willing to accept the adage "that is how it is intended to be" as a good excuse for a poorly designed process and ambiguous materials. I'd want my son to get the training and the guidance to do his best, THEN let him loose to see what he can do. That's what we are here for as Scouters.

Agreed. The SM is in Al Haig "I'm In Control" Land. The work is done. The signatures to the proposal agreed with the approach. Any changes during the project at what the Final Project Plan is for. Unless he's not using complete sentences or effectively conveying his ideas and concepts, the SM is being a bugger about this.

Like this one. Broke just about every rule we teach first year Scouts.

I agree on the sign off of the project proposal. They all signed so the PROPOSAL met with their expectations. Where I have seen the issues come up where units want "more work done" come when the project plan is insufficiently developed/completed so that it is hard to decided of the Scout met Requirement #5. That's why my unit insists on seeing the Draft Plan AND the Proposal. That way we can help the candidate properly track and document his project. I've suggested to BSA for years that their process is broken and they should require the Scouts to get the unit signatures AFTER the proposal AND draft plan are done. To sign the proposal is just silly. We as leaders need to guide these kids in during this imperfect process. We need to protect them against "scope creep" by the beneficiaries. We need to protect them from overzealous Scouters in the unit and district. For the life of me I cannot see an SM refusing to sign a workbook unless it was 1) shoddy, 2) very insufficient, 3) did not meet the stated goals of the proposal, 4) the beneficiary was not happy because it was done poorly or not done to proposal. This could all be avoided had the unit had better processes to help the Scout.

Yup. The only form they will accept is Internet Advancement reports OR having an unit leader fill out the aforementioned form. I could have written the entire roster of the Denver Broncos and they wouldn't have known the difference. Silly process.

Wow, stunned that the troop would clear him in the first place to even begin his project without having done a few things first. In our unit we follow this process: The Scout meets with an Eagle Advisor to discuss his proposal. He works and meets with the advisor to make sure his proposal and plan meet BSA and beneficiary requirements. The proposal is drafted and submitted to the advisor. When adequate it goes to the SM for signature. Our SM requires the Scout to have his draft plan done BEFORE signing. The reason is that the BSA process is a bit backwards in that they only require proposal sign off but no sign off until all the way at the end of the project paperwork. Seeing the draft plan AND the proposal helps the SM work with the Scout to make sure that all of the things required in the workbook are properly documented. After the reviews the proposal and draft plan it is sent back to the Scout for updating and such. After the updates they are sent back to the SM for review and signature. The CC signs the docs with little review relying on the SM and the Eagle Advisor to do their work. Then the Beneficiary signs (or sometimes that is first). Then the district exec. NOW the project can begin. AFTER the project is worked then the final plan is developed, noting the changes from the proposal and draft plan. When the final plan is done our Eagle Advisor walks through ALL the Eagle paperwork to ensure that everything meets the requirements AND the stated scope/benefit of the plan. The BIG issue is not the project but rather did the Scout meet the spirit of Requirement #5 "While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader and unit committee, and the council or district before you start." Unless the Scout really, really did not show leadership during his project or did not show evidence of a good plan then our SM signs off on the final project plan. Some units or beneficiaries like to add stuff after the fact. So unless your son did a very poor job in answering the questions in the workbook OR did not show leadership during the project, then your unit is being a bit too picky. They may even be violating BSA guidelines around the Eagle process. If the unit continues to be sticky on this subject I would get a meeting with the district person and talk to them. This can all be avoided by the unit helping the Scout to manage this very poorly designed process better.

Possibly. Though I think like many things in life that become responsorial, they do it because they do it. If they stopped to think about it I think they would link the request to their own belief system....and for some of them it is truly "Great Scoutmasters".

Yes they do say "Great Scoutmasters". It is pretty funny. But I am 100% sure they do ti because they are new and are just following the mistake made by other (Christian) Scouts who say the same thing.

Two other BSA units and 2 cub units. The other units don't move because 1) they belong to units that staff the district, so why leave the pond they're the big fish of, or 2) they don't use the district for anything and are not positively or negatively affected by the district.

Because I tried it and it doesn't work.

This explains why my new (non-jewish, non-christian) kids say, "May the Great Scoutermasters of all true Scouts be with us until we meet again."

Our old district was horrid. Cronyism every where. Mismanagement. Only wanted reports and stats from you, never gave anything in return. Other district is two miles away. Simply left and joined the other district. Filled out less paperwork than it took to get a rank advancement to make it happen (see how I linked two threads together?)

As Frank Burns said, "Supervision is one of the most important parts of an operation. Someone has to be there to say, 'How's it going men?'"

Council records correct? Seriously? My training record is STILL messed up after five years of trying to fix it. Council screws up paperwork every year. There's too much of it and that's the problem. If council wants to mange paperwork try tracking the stuff that REALLY matters! There's no reason a registered scouter should have to fill out a second or third application to become a MBC or switch from ASM to TC member. That could be done online throughout myscouting instead of insisting on paperwork. YPT doesn't need to be stapled to the annual registration form. If the BSA number is provided the online system should link my application to my online YPT training g certificate. Maybe if council spent less time on such things my new members would actually get put in to the system before June each year! It's sad we have members join in January and get their membership cards at summer camp!!!! I'll wager council's records accuracy for rank badges or anything else would struggle to reach 60%.

...and here I was believing that "For the boys" drivel.

We changed districts. Councils I would see as a bit more difficult.

Like most here we monitor. We encourage. We remind. We do not drag them to the SMC or BOR. The PL should be doing rank checks, as should Guides and Instructors.

"Easily verified"? Have you ever BEEN to a council office? They told me my recharter paperwork was missing YPT forms....until I produced the PDF files proving they screwed up! I get stopping someone from buying 12 Life patches. I even get restricting Eagle badge purchases (though I could have purchase 20 palms if I wanted, go figure). But to require some parent to go to get more paperwork so Timmy can have a second Tenderfoot patch sewn on a second overpriced uniform shirt she just bought? Please. How bloody likely is it that Timmy is a rouge unapproved Tenderfoot? This is existence justification on BSAs part.

The mom in front of me drove an hour to get there, only to be turned away...twice. I asked her what she needed and gave her a Scout badge from my "stash". I am not sure if I broke or upheld the Scout Law doing that, but frankly I don't care. She said her son earned Scout and was looking forward to wearing it to the meeting tomorrow. I suspect I might get fired from my 1 hour a week volunteer role for that.

I'd do the following: Have anyone helping fill out an event form noting the possibility of finding the body. All "crews" would have two-deep adult supervision. Crews would be advised on search and recovery issues. Would work with CO regarding pre-event and post-event counseling. Agree with @@moosetracker, this was a recovery event. Having kids below 15 might be a bit rough. If you've never seen a dead body even the toughest adults go wet. Not a scout event IMHO.