Gone

Replies in red below...

No chance. The leadership there has been in place for years and they are not going anywhere soon. They've even groomed their replacements -- like-thinking good old boys who don't want to change a thing. That's why my unit focuses on our program and our members. We have a vibrant, growing unit. We have none of the issues plaguing other units in our area because we don't play the district's games or waste our time there. Our money and time goes in to a quality program for our boys. We don't have it? We hire folks from outside (and file the appropriate paperwork and training) to provide the training. We adhere to the GTA. I am sure we interpret a few things that are unclear, but our attrition rate is so low it is almost non-existent. Exit interviews show the reasons being other activities (usually sports, arts or academics). High correlation between those who leave and absentee parents.

So do you make the obese kid do the 1/4 mile run or pull ups in front of his new scout class? Or does he do them in private? Do you have the known non-swimmer still attempt the swim test? Or does he get a pass or a private test? Does the kid with a stuttering problem or social anxiety get to do a private speech and a pass on doing the COH or campfire or interfaith service? Or is he required to still get up in front of everyone and expose his disability? My point is there's embarrassment throughout scouting. Unless you've eliminated ALL of it, decrying signing for stuff is a bit hypocritical, no? Laissez le bon temps roule.

Problem is these changes go through the district's interpretation which, where I live, is usually wrong.

I played at recess in third grade. Do we really need to teaching time management and giving out Covey planners to third graders? There's plenty of time to learn that stuff. Heck, I learned time management by making it home for dinner or going to bed hungry. I didn't need to have my iPhone synced to our family calendar to know when to be home.

I am split on the issue. I had to sing for stuff. Embarrassed? Sure. Scarred for life? Hardly. Sooner or later it happened to everyone. I can see giving new and younger scouts a pass on this practice. There's embarrassment throughout scouting. The kid who can't swim, the kid who stutters having to conduct a COH or something for the Communicatons MB, the non-athletic kid having to do PT, etc. As adults we have to help kids deal with embarrassment and get over it; show them it's not a life ending event. I've seen units where EVERYONE sings if something is lost. Maybe that's the compromise. But let's not pretend there aren't other areas in ALL of our units where similar exclusions take place.

Almost was afraid to come in to this thread given the title. I wanted to make sure I had a second adult with me. Well, if you can't sing for your stuff because it is humiliating, why are some OA ceremonies asking ALL candidates to stand for tap out? After all the guys elected get tapped out the guys who didn't are left standing....IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE AT CAMPOREE!!!! Tell me THAT'S not humiliating? So, I'll not worry too much about a kid singing for a lost canteen until BSA -- and Bryan -- stop the other BSA-sponsored humiliation that goes on at the district and council level. Please!

Exactly! We had an outgoing (as in stepping down) advancement chair hold a Life BOR for a friend of his son. In the SMC the SM did not catch the fact that the POR was not completed. He was awarded Star (March), got a POR two months later (May). Six months after his Star award date (Sept he requested an SMC, passed and went for his the following week. The paperwork he submitted was dated but no one caught that someone (the advancement chair) "fudged" the dates to get his SMC and BOR. The advancement chair held the BOR and passed the Scout. One of our ASMs sits down with the SPL each month and reviews the advancement status of the boys. One month after this Scout passed his BOR (October) it was noticed that his paperwork was incorrect as his POR completion date was AFTER his Life BOR (November was the 6 month POR completion date). The old advancement chair was trying to get him through because he knew this scout would not pass a BOR with the incoming chair. this scout was erroneously awarded Life, which would have caused all sorts of paperwork hassles during the Eagle process. Long story short, we went all the way to national with this one (neither council nor district had a clue on how to address this). National had us take back the Life award, have the Scout earn his POR for Life by completing two months in a POR and then go back through the SMC and BOR process. The former advancement chair was rebuked and asked to leave....this was a purposeful act, not a mistake...and we now have stronger audit controls on advancement. All that to say, yeah, you can take things away *IF* they were not earned according to BSA rules.

Hmmmm. You might want to slow down and read my posts...and the smileys. First, my post above was poking fun at the fact that more and more Scouters are just as couch potato-like as the Scouts BSA is trying to target. Got to any national, district or council event and measure waistlines. So, in fact, I was agreeing with...just poking fun at the Scouters who are just as lazy as the Scouts. Second, if you read any of my posts you will know that I am VERY MUCH in favor of a GREATER emphasis on the outdoor program. So, again, we agree that Scouting is about the outdoors. Yes, STEM is important, but NOT where BSA should be spending its money. I thought my post about spending money on STEM, rather than other areas where BSA's main mission is at risk, is silly. Third, I pointed out in this thread that BSA as mis-aligning its program emphasis toward things like STEM, rather than doing some REAL research on where their membership growth lies and aligning their outreach programs with that. This takes away from BSA's main mission (outdoors) so, again, we agree. Fourth, I pointed out that BSA had nor business promoting STEM in certain areas where the school systems already had a far superior presence than BSA could EVER have with some expensive, over-hyped RV road show. Lastly, if you can't tell by my posts, I pretty much an old-school scout. Parents should butt out. Boys should lead more. BSA should be smarter and better at what they do. Scouting is about being outside, building fires, cooking, camping, hiking, etc. Want to promote STEM? Great, but do it in a manner that will be effective, not waste 300k on a tricked-out RV. I hope that makes my position clear.

Right! That's what being a Scouter is all about!!!

Sorry, but I *do* blame the parents. Parents should want the best for their kids. Are the parents happy if their kid passes a class in school they deserved to fail? Do the parents want their kid to take 8th Grade Science but not know how many planets are in solar system (correct answer is 9 because Pluto is too a planet)? C'mon, not blaming the parents is a cop out. Sorry. Unless they want mediocrity of their kid across the board then parents are absolutely to blame here. My own son attended a MC "college" where they taught First Aid via Powerpoint for 8 hours. No hands on. No nothing. He got signed off and came home totally dis-heartened. One of his first MBs. I, as a parent, heard him out, asked him what he wanted to do and then offered to send him through a Red Cross first aid course BEFORE he would submit his card for credit. He came back from that class LOVING first aid. So yeah, parents CAN make a big difference. The issue here is what type of experience do you want for your Scout? As for MBCs, yes, I totally blame them too!! If they were stricter none of this would be necessary and would be a check against those parents who don't mind mediocrity. As for councils and districts, don't get me started. If they spent more time policing these shabby MB factories than promoting them, we'd have happier kids, stronger Scouts and fewer paper Eagles. [\ getting down off soap box] Torchwood Lives!

We have position descriptions. Likely the same ones that many of us here use and are based off of the generic ones in BSA docs and then fine-tuned for our unit. We have the job and duties outlined. We have objectives also. We ask every candidate for positions to create their "action plan" before the election which will outline what they plan to accomplish during their tenure. These are all given to the SPL. After the SPL election, he and the SM sit down and go over the candidates and their action plans. The action plans and the role description are used monthly to keep the leaders on track. If the SPL or PLs or SMs feel a scout is not meeting his action plan or the outline duties/responsibilities they are brought in for an SMC to remind them. Sounds like you are doing something similar. It has helped us IMMENSELY in reducing and nearly eliminating poor leadership. Yes, this process does require some adult assistance in the boy-led troop, but the SPL is actively involved all the way. Exactly! And it needs to be revisited monthly too. After two months of a six month term, if the scout is not stepping up (and is being told so) then in month 3 we have a "shape up or lose your role" talk. If month 3 goes by and no joy, he's replaced. I respectfully disagree. Part of adult association and guidance is having a discourse with the youth leaders to point out to them the difference between truly living up to our duties and obligations. They may not be equipped to handle the pressure of turning down a buddy, nepotism/cronyism, etc. It is our job as leaders to guide them with that decision-making. I suspect you meant that we don't make the decisions for them, but rather advise them on all the angles and then let them make the decision. That's what they do in my unit....I suspect that may be what you meant @@Stosh.

In our unit the SM monitors the POR activity. The Scribe notes attendance. The SPL manages what events they attend. Each month if we don't see he leaders the SM take to them. If by the midpoint of the six month term they are below the objectives for that role there's an SMC to give them one last chance. If they still don't step up they are removed and no credit given.

But MBs are signed off like that all the time. Cant take it back. However the ASM can refuse to sign off on scout spirit or hold the SMC until these boys are counciled about what they did. Better troop procedures and adult training would fix all of this.

We have a unit in policy that POR and Scout Spirit is signed off in the SMC. The SMs assigned to do the SMC must physically check our system for POR credit. Scout Spirit is evaluated by those SMs talking to the PLs, SPL and JASMs as to how the scouts in question met the oath and law. The SMs then deliberate if the scouts have met that requirement. We know in advance if they will or won't because those won't have been under scrutiny of been spoken too prior to the SMC, so they are not even granted a rank SMC if they don't meet the requirement. Those few who don't are counciled about what they need to do (and time frame) to complete that requirement. These cases are few in number. All other requirements are signed off by our Instructors only.

I blame the district and councils and MBCs too. They know darn well the system is being abused and yet they continue to promote them. Why? To increase rank advancement stats pure and simple.

@@NJCubScouter, in my area we have MB events that last a day. Scouts are told to complete the "prerequisites" at home which are usually the two time consuming requirements. The MBC teaches some or most of the rest. He/she then sign off on the WHOLE badge if the scout attests to having completed those other requirements. I've seen all Citizenships, Cooking, First Aid and even Wilderness Survival signed off in a day without any hands-on work by the scouts or even any outdoor work. Our SM is supposed to sign these cards and hand out these badges? Our only recourse is to report th event and each counselor for not following the MBC training and the GTA. Other than that we have to award these. It's criminal.

Playing Devil's Advocate in red...

Because the $300k STEM van wasn't available?

Then clearly BSA does not mean "God" when they say duty to God then, because otherwise Scientologists would not qualify.

...or if the rules get violated.

We had an issue at camp a few years ago. We had a scouter attend a Gelology MB class because he heard that the MBC was discussing Minecraft the whole class....not the MB requirements. This was reported to the camp director who also audited the course. Discussions were had with the MBC but this continued. The scouter audited every session to see if any of the requirements were covered. His report showed less than 20% of the requirements were covered. This was a subject of daily discussion with the camp director, who eventually just gave up. Come Friday night and reviewing the MB packet, all of our scouts were "signed off" on that MB. Our SM was reluctant to sign the blue cards but had no choice. When we got home spoke with the scouts and and their parents. We discussed the problem (that the boys have been awarded something they didn't earn) and offered a resolution. One of our dads (a geologist) offered to hold a Saturday session to review the skipped requirements. We noted this was voluntary and that the boys would receive the MB anyway because BSA requires it. To their credit all but one of the scouts took the extra session. They all felt they had really earned the badge. Only one scout didn't take the extra course....but he dropped later anyway. All the scouts who stepped up and took the course eventually made Eagle or SPL or JASM or such.

Depends. Most design schools for gaming, graphics and animation do NOT require much math since the software does most of it. Mastery of the software is required and you learn a lot in the process, but the guys doing the design are hardly mathematicians. That's the reason they are in design rather than coding or engineering; they have less aptitude for math and more for the artsy side. I know this because my younger brother works in the gaming industry. I can see targeting this program in areas where STEM is in need due to poor public schools or under-served communities where there is ALSO a cross-section of likely members. But BSA rarely knows how to link such two different concepts effectively. Moreover, it is ironic that they spent that money on STEM when their national IT systems are the butt of many jokes. I don't think it's too much to ask for BSA to think through their projects and spend money effectively. Rolling this transport through suburban Chicago or Dallas or DC -- where the school systems are better equipped to bring STEM to the kids -- is a waste. BSA would be better off updating the two year old NOVA info on their website.

We were proactive. It is just that council promised something they didn't deliver. We are the only membership organization I know that annually treats its members as brand new members. Think of the money that could be saved and spent elsewhere if they got out of 1958 and caught up to the rest of the world.

So THAT's where the money is going in my council. Instead of having decent latrines that don't make you vomit to enter them, they're spending a few hundred grand on some rolling coach to teach sub-par science that the kids get more in-depth at school! Yeah!