Gone

Dunno. Our TC chair has done it in the past but he usually asks the scouter if they want the knot in the first place. For Eagle and AOL knots the scouter themselves do the paperwork and wear the knots. Many do it to show the boys what they can wear when they get older. All other knots are done by the TC. In my unit hardly any scouters wear any knots. Don't feel the need to. Many could have 6-8 knots easy. Just don't see the need.

So you support units practicing the games to be played at camporee in advance, even months ahead of time? That flies in the face of the intent of the competition. In my district we had several of the larger units put all their guys on the local football team in to one "patrol" so they could take honors. Real trustworthy, huh? Give me a break! The games are designed to be a fun thing for existing patrols to build esprit de corps, not to build pretend patrols to get unit ribbons. Please! Districts and councils have no clue on to do outreach. They stick to the same old model that has not worked. The best thing they could do would be to throw their archaic model out and adopt some best practices from the corporate world. The councils could go after executives outside the non-profit industry to get a group of workers with a different mindset than the typical non-profit exec. I've seen this done with other non-profits and it has worked very well. BSA should give it a try. I do notice that no one defending the current district model -- or the very existence of districts -- have yet to address what units get from districts. @@JoeBob notes the very same issues I pointed out previously. Why spend sooooo much time staffing an organization that gives so little in return?

@@mgood777, also try this site. Good site for tribes in Texas.

Just shaking my head...how Scout-like is that? Sad.

Read my posts. I address this specifically.

You might find this interesting. https://portal.utpa.edu/utpa_main/daa_home/csbs_home/chaps_home/imagesfiles/native-american-peoples-of-south-texas-book-publisher-format.pdf

As I suspected, you're over qualified to be a Scoutmaster. Test out, teach your instructors all you've learned and pass on that knowledge.

You could not have misconstrued the "meander" from the OP more. The issue is NOT having the district run events for units with district-only volunteers. The point is that district should 1) stop acting like we exist to serve them (FOS, JTE, etc,), 2) stop the us versus them mentality, 3) perform the mission outlined in the BSA manual on districts, and lastly 4) be innovative rather than continue to rely on how they THINK should be run. Again, no one contends that districts that have volunteers that want to help voluntarily are better off. The point is that 1) districts should not cannibalize units to get volunteers, even if the unit people voluntarily step up, 2) again, districts should stick to their mission.

@@fred johnson, one last point. Assume you are correct. Assume the only way to have a successful district is to recruit the best and brightest from the units. What type of cannibalistic model is that? You'd NEVER find that in a successful Fortune 500 company...at least not for too long. You cannot cannibalize your units to have a successful district. You need to find another model or else you are building your foundation on sand, where the units are forced to constantly replace good leadership. Just build one good CS Pack and then suck the leadership out of it and see how long it sticks around. Your model is broken and cannot work. The district model you propose is DOA. What districts should be doing is recruiting from outside BSA, as well as working hard to identify retiring scouters or those who have moved. Build in a scouter recycling program where you move people around. Do something innovative to get the blood flowing. Hire DEs that are not more concerned about getting to Council rather than doing their job. Make their promotions performance-based and actually make the goals hard. The one reason these things will never happen is because you cannot build a power-base in such an environment, and THAT is something very few districts I have seen would voluntarily give up.

With all due respect Fred, you've drunk the kool-aid too long. The core point is not where district staff come from. The core point of the district's existence -- as stated in BSA's own literature -- is "ensure the growth and success of Scouting units within the district’s territory. The purpose of the district is to work through chartered organizations and community groups to organize and support successful units. The end result of effective district support is more and more youth members receiving a better and better program." Where the district staff come from is immaterial. In my experience are district and those around us are staffed by people who USED TO BE involved with their units and now want WB or Vigil or some other knot or something and know that the good old boy network is run by district and the only way to get the bling is volunteer. In the past we staffed many an event and committee. Got us no where EXCEPT more work. We literally get nothing from district. Zip. You miss the point. The money comes from the units! Districts support units more, we become more successful. Council has more money, units have more money, district gets more budget. Win-win, not noise. So what? What do we get FROM district? NOTHING!!! We literally get nothing from them. We get NYLT from council and the local camps, but district? Nada. Well that depends if that new district is run by self-indulgent volunteers who talk down to the units, continue to ask for stuff while giving nothing in return and wasting our time rather than doing what they can support the mission BSA has outlined for the district. And so what if districts did go away? They have ZERO impact on the well-being of my unit. We have $14,000 in the bank, we've spent over 25 years with the same charter org. Our membership is strong and continues to grow. We have well-trained adults that offer everything from shooting sports to high adventure to STEM. We have a great training program and our scouts go on to NYLT and NAYLE. Many go on to staff these courses or Seabase or Philmont. So why would I waste my time again on an enterprise that bring my unit nothing? Not my job! Read the district manifesto. They have a job to do for me, not the other way around. Sorry. Exactly my point! I've seen no one UC or DE in a loooooong time. We make JTE Gold every year but don't bother to submit the paperwork. We don't need a patch to know we are a high performing unit.

So you think units should serve districts and councils? I agree that IF districts and councils are actively serving their units that the units should return the favor. But when so many districts simply put upon the units to do stuff for them and give nothing of value in return, serving the district takes away from my unit....and those are the people who pay my unit to plan and execute a quality program. So I will put my time and effort where I serve the mission of Scouting....and so should districts and councils. If killing off useless districts is the outcome of districts that are run poorly, perhaps councils should spend more time supporting districts, and districts in turn the units. THAT is how the money flows. Without the units, districts and councils will be out of stuff to do.

Why do something to check a box? If more solid scouters stood up to say, "I don't need WB to be a good scouter" maybe BSA would wake up and realize their training is less and less pertinent. The best training I have taken in the last 5 years has been outside of BSA. WFRA and LNT are done by outside groups and are top notch programs. My climbing, survival and watercraft training have also all been outside of BSA. Checking the box makes you one of the good old boys. Why do that if you get nothing out of it other than a woggle and a lighter check book?

As ASM, I would agree it is tough to change. As SM, however, it is easier...and that's what happened in my unit years ago. We were lucky to get an SM who had a vision to tighten things up, make things more boy-led and implement the patrol method. It took a while and we lost about 4-8 families (most paper Eagle types). However, our unit has grown by 20 full time scouts to nearly 90 scouts. The "active" scouts have gone up too. We used to have a 30% inactivity rate (mostly kids who reached Life by 14 then came back at 17 to Eagle out), now that number is more like 10% or less. Our number of active leaders is up too. Our programs we support (events and service projects) are up as well. There's still work to do, mostly in educating new parents how to let go, but overall we are light years from where we were 10 years ago.

I consider myself the most interesting man in the world. I hope that under our non-discrimination laws everyone will start treating me like that.

I think that is what @@blw2 was getting at...and perhaps a bit more. At VERY least IOLS should teach everything first year scouts must learn AND everything scouters must know to help the first year scouts stay on track with those core skills. It should also teach patrol method. Boy-led and how to stay out of the boys' way should be taught in leader-specific training.

Here's the WB21C outline. I don't see anything there to learn that a scouter who has spent 15 years in scouting, who follows the patrol method, boy-led aspects of scouting, has taken all the mandatory and optional training, and has taken the time to read the BSA pubs (and other pubs) doesn't already know. My friends with similar credentials have been and, apart form being at Philmont, thought it was a complete waste of time and money. I believe very early on it was like that. It wasn't until the late 90s that the changes were being discussed and then implemented in 200-02.

Does this mean Bruce Jenner can be a leader in GSUSA?

You missed the 11th area: Folks who snore loud. This is a coed area for all adults because they sleep too deeply to do anything that would violate BSA policy.

This should be done for IOLS. If not, what else is IOLS for?

@@Stosh, I should revise and extend my remarks; comments apply to most WBers who took WB since the format change. Long ago I believe WB was worthwhile. My opinion is, since the change, most of WB is like JTE. Though in my experience most people with knots or beads on their uniform are always quick to point out how right they are. Present company excluded.

ROFL!!! @@JoeBob has the right idea!!! I would donate $300 to have a seat at THAT RT to watch the fireworks!!!

All the sentiments above are why we focus on our unit and nothing beyond that. We've developed a great relationship with our CO so that we give back more than we take. We've focused on a great set of events and themes within our unit program to make us independent from anything council or district would offer (e.g., shooting/range sports, climbing, HA, water sports, etc.). We literally don't need council OR district for anything. We abide by the Sweet 16 and GTSS but we push the envelop a bit. If an activity is not even tacitly forbidden we assume it can be done (i.e., go karts). As I have said before, we have our own OA ceremonial team, so we are not even dependent on the local lodge for call outs, only ordeal. We do our own TLT which is based on the old JLT program from long ago. We have a wealth of MBCs which cover all the major MBs, so we rarely have need for MBCs outside our unit. So outside of ordeal, NYLT, the occasional MBC, Eagle project approval and EBORs, we literally have no use for council or district. To guard against overzealous district Eagle project reviews we make sure all projects and paperwork are 100% above reproach. While my faith in BSA continues to wane, my faith in the power of parents to step up and make our unit stronger continues to grow!

We said 50% of all camping and service projects.

Nope. Districts and councils serve the units, not the other way around.

Yes. They are successfully promoting scouting. The better question, if the unit is the front line of the scouting battle, what does district and council do daily to support the UNITS in winning that battle and successfully promote scouting?