Gone

I think I was pretty clear, but let me be more so. BSA says no to gay leaders. Council should not be allowed to do what they want in this regard. Supreme Court says BSA has the right to bar gay leaders. BSA says no to girls in scouts. Council (for the sake of argument) wants to allow girls now. Should they be able to? Same membership policy is at play here: namely BSA's ability to pick and choose who they want as members.

Annual physicals are not enough. Many heart centers now offer stress tests, calcium scoring, CAT-scans of arteries and APOE genome testing to chart your overall risk of heart disease. You can get this from 45 on with most major health plans, at 40 if you are an at risk person. Retest every five years, three if high risk. Great way to find out if you have any blockages or if your diet is right for you. For example, my GP had me on Omega-3s for heart health. Had my APOE genome testing and found out that my genes don't process Omega-3s well; they actually did more harm than good. Knowing heart rate, blood pressure, calcium scoring, BMI, muscle mass, high fiber, low-fat, etc., all help in keeping you fit enough and informed enough to do these things with the boys. If you have insurance that will cover it (even if you don't) I would highly recommend doing these tests. They can uncover problems before they can hurt you.

So councils can make their own policies and rules and keep their charter under the current system?

Assuming this is true I bet you will see a large number of units thumbing their nose at BSA and continuing to offer these programs within the unit as currently allowed. Otherwise I know in my area of the world, you take away the ability to have shooting sports at the unit level -- and add in the pending membership policy change -- and our guys will flat out stop coming to Boy Scouts. they love our shooting sports program and we spend a great deal of money to make sure we have qualified, trained folks (in many cases 3-4 RSOs and instructors for each discipline) on staff. How many times a year do districts and councils offer shooting sports now? In my neck of the woods it is webelos day camp, summer camp and webelos woods. Maybe camporee. That's only twice for boy scouts, assuming you stay in council. Maybe three if you staff day camp or webelos woods. That's not enough to keep boy scouts interested.

One can also work the system and avoid violating the rules of the organization. Scouts should set an example and abide by rules rather than picking and choosing which rules they wish to obey.

If the unit accepted the scout and wanted to get trained on how to manage him, then obviously most everyone involved was willing to try. I think where things fell down, given what little we know, is perhaps the expectations of how autonomous the scout was going to be were perhaps too high.

The shooting sports manual. It says that the unit does not have to possess all the certifications needed to conduct the specific outing. So, for example, you can go to an archery range which carries the stated certifications and instructors and conduct your event as a unit. There are numerous examples noted in the manual. Glad they allow this. If we had to wait for district or council to put together such fun events we'd never get to do it. Our unit has our own clay throwers, sling shots, archery gear and even catapults.

You can also do them at a professionally run commercial facility.

Done the Palo Duro off road trek a while back. Beautiful country that!!! Was not all that hot but the rattlers were out in force.

Cheers, thanks! Link going to PLC right now.

It seems the relation between council and national is similar to that of fraternal organizations. They may be somewhat separate, but national can still revoke the charter of the council. Council cannot make up their own policies as they are part of national and under its auspices. Council cannot allow Webelos to drive ATVs because national forbids it. Council cannot allow girls in because national forbids it. So by extension, council cannot make changes to their membership requirements because that is national's purview. It is speculation to say that the council got assurances. Did the NY council? Who knows, but given how weak BSA is on such things, they have shown they can be bullied in to making decisions. What bothers me is how folks always ask "How scout-like is xxx". Well, how scout-like it is to knowingly violate a standing rule rather than working through the process as a good scout would. No one seems to be able answer that question, rather they fall back on "It's the right thing to do." Well, I think it's wrong to prohibit scouts for using hand guns, black powder, ATVs, etc. Should I just ignore BSA policy, or should I work the process to change it? What's good for the goose....

@@qwazse, this is why I was noting the award and insignia guide. Typically they say what can/can't be worn and *if* i can be worn, where it is worn. Sometimes medals may not be worn but their corresponding patches can be (in the temporary patch location).

@@NJCubScouter you sound like council is a separate organization from national. It's not. The Constituion and the U.S. Supreme Court has said BSA can have its policy. National sets the policy. Councils abide but that policy if they don't then national can revoke their position and the courts would support them. Councils could leave if they don't like what BSA stands for and start their own organization. What Stosh is decrying is how, despite having the law on their side, national has caved to the squeaky money wheel instead of stuck to their guns....so to speak. Once they step aside for that, you can bet more policies will be challenged.

Again...I was not addressing the wearing of the uniform. I suspect since BSA is now aligned with this medal we will see the uniform and insignia guide updated to show how the medal is worn. @@TAHAWK, thanks for the post. You jogged my memory, another "medal" and patch approved for wear by BSA but not supplied through them are the Historic Trail badges. There's tons on the east coast, not so many in my neck of the woods.

But they are supplied through BSA. This isn't, is it? If not, this may be the first non-BSA award (neither presented or supplied) to be worn with the uniform in modern times. No?

You misinterpret my point. It will be interesting to see if BSA approves the wearing of this medal since it does not appear to be a BSA-awarded medal. I was not addressing wearing the uniform to receive the medal. Since BSA is working with government on this, I'd assume that would be an approved event despite being in a political setting. Others have worn the uniform to Congress before.

It will be interesting to see what BSA says. Someone here used to work for BSA Supply...maybe they know? The Outdoor Awareness Award (formerly LNT) is essentially done by two outside orgs, but the patch is still produced and awarded through BSA. Can't think if there are any outside awards which BSA allows worn on the uniform.

Alaska and Kandersteg for high adventure. Grand Tetons for camping in August.

@@NJCubScouter, as I said right can be a matter of perception. You have your perception and I have mine. Yes there clear cut situations of right and wrong. But there are just as many cases where what is "right" is not clear or may be situational. Let's not pretend any of this is clear cut or right. It's colored by one's perception.

[bump] No technology?

Brilliant!!! Rules please!

October is quick for BSA. Let's face it, this issue caught them by surprise. They need time to find a scapegoat and places to hide when the crappola hits the fan.

Yup, you can even bring your canon. We have several Civil War and Western re-enactors in our units. One owns a cannon. Our guys are seriously considering thumbing our nose at BSA once this [change] officially goes through. If national is going to allow groups to pick and choose if they want to adhere to a current policy then we will take that as lead to do the same. There's no good reason to bar scouts from using pistols or black powder (and yet allow rifles and shotguns) if there is proper training and supervision. Given the Constitution (for now) gives us the right to keep and bear arms, why would BSA want to infringe on our rights?

Please tell me we are not equating what this council is doing with Rosa Parks or the Sons of Liberty. One can never know what "right" is. It is a matter of perception in many cases.

...and in violation of the national policy. Couldn't wait until October, just had to ram-rod something through. This question is asked many times in this forum so let's apply this question to this council: How scout-like is it to knowingly break a rule? Especially when you know it is about to be changed? What message does that send to the scouts? It's okay to break a rule of roughly 50% of you believe the rule is wrong? I'm telling you @@Stosh, my unit is already discussing bringing a few beers for our campfire down time. Maybe we will teach blackpowder rifle to ALL of our scouts. Maybe we will let ALL of our scouts drive ATVs. Maybe we teach pistols along with rifle and shotgun. Maybe we let Webelos use our archery and tomahawks.