moosetracker

Nice idea, but Nope.. So are your districts running training sessions throughout the summer months, or is the in-person training any adult leader training you take while at summer camp? Our district training is normally Spring/Fall, the camps run training through the summer. Not much training is held over the winter months (understandable the IOLS as it is not survival camping but pretty much car style camping.) Not sure why we don't for the others except for the problems of cancellations due to blizzards.. I might run a youth protection, or supplemental training in the winter, but that's it.

Sorry, I did not pick up until now that this thread was resumed again.. Lots, going on.. rraffalo - you definately did not pick up on the earlier statements that the CO owns the units under them with the COR being their represenative, although stated in many ways throughout this thread. SAME CO/COR!!!! - You get this idea (which I admit was a good thought) BUT SAME CO/COR!!!! So you thought to just have the CC of the crew sign it, on a opinion by you the COR really didn't agree with the CC of the troop.. If you really believed that you then you should have asked him if this was an agreeable work around. NOT snuck it past him.. The only reason you snuck it past him, was you feared his response, would not be what you wanted to hear. I hope that poor Crew CC knew of the squabbles going on and that it was not only the CC but the COR's position before they signed that tour permit.. If so they deserve the "new one" the COR ripped for them.. If not, your not being up front with them put them in a lot of hot water. Once the COR is involved you do not try to sneak anything past them, within any of the units that is under their authority.. If you had read him right, then he may have considered the approach workable. If you did not, you would have had the answer, without getting him so upset that he removed you from the trip.. But, to try to sneak it past him by getting a signature by someone below his authority, you just slapped him across the face and I am not surprised that his reaction was what it was.. He was forced to react in the manner he did, or loose his authority over the units, and be stepped on and ignored from that day forward. Trying to come up with an equal scenerio, outside of scouting.. That would be like at work, coming up with a solution and proposing it for the accounting department and having the President of the company flat out say "NO", so going to the IT department, and have them carry it out.. If the IT manager follows through, the President of the company will not only come down on you, but on the manager of the IT department. You both might get fired.. If the IT manager was not made aware of the Company Presidents views on the subject, it would be your fault for getting him canned.. Sorry for you being forcibly removed, now lets see what happens with the replacement. This is short notice and alot of expense, you already know that no other parents with other children on this trip want to (or are able to) take your place.. So they are either looking for an adult wanting to go with their child not involved in the trip.. Or a parent/child team.. Unless you are right and they have someone waiting in the wings, at this late date that will practically impossible to find.. If similar cost of our SeaBase trip then Seabase+Airfare+room/board before getting on the ship was about $2,000 per person. It's a tall order even if they open it to looking for a group within the district or council.. The time is not on their side, many units wind down for summer.. Most people have their summer plans formated and lined up.. What will your unit/CO do if they can't find the replacement? They have now made such a show of it, they will not back down to allow you to go if they can not find the replacement. Whose fault is it? Half of this large show they put on was because you would not let up and behave right.. You blame them for not seeing things your way, because you are right and they are wrong. They have the exact same attitude.. As you escalated, they were forced to also. If the crew was of a different CO, that might have been a solution.. When I read your solution I thought maybe that is why you eluded earlier to haveing two CO's troop & Crew of different CO's.. But, doing what you did under the same CO...? WOW! You do have alot of balls... No, I can not see Richard B. taking on this, with the mess you have made of it.. I would be surprised if the program director calls you back, they have a tendancy to dis-associate from serious problems.. Number one for them is keeping their units, and they will not do anything that may cause a CO to discontinue running 2? 3 (if theres a pack) units.. They were probably threatened with this by your actions, and the part they played in it.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Eagle92 - I hope I am not. But that is what the Training Report does, and so when I asked the council Registrar why, and he gave me that explanation it made sense of the report, but I don't like tha answer I got.. So I send the info out once a year by email to all the units on who in their units are trained or not, and have them log any missing trainings on a form to the registrar.. What happens to the people with the older trainings is ironed out between them. I stay out of it..

I was told something else and the Trained/untrained reports you get from Council seemed to agree with this assessment.. I would have people who would be in two units say - Boy Scouts & Venture or Cub Scouts & Boy Scouts.. In one unit, New Leaders Essentials was honored as valid, while in the other it listed them as needing This is Scouting.. So I asked why.. I was told the Grandfather clause is good for as long as you are in your position. If after the course changes, you change your position then you are no longer grandfathered, and need to take the newer courses.. So if you have been in the same position for the past 10 years, never moved for ASM to SM after the courses changed, or from one unit to another.. You should be good.. But if you moved and had to do a new adult App for a new position, I fear that you are not. But, I agree with ScoutNut, if the wording was in place for Scoutmastership Fundamentals that is for the new Intro to outdoor leader training, it is a rip off if they pull the Grandfather unless you change positions.. Because it truely is worded that it "Adults who have taken Intro to outdoor leader skills will not have to repeat the skills".. (of course that wording is subject to interpretation, and I do not know if there was something similar for Fundamentals)..

Alas, Cannot.. In-laws are coming for the weekend..

Thank's for the support Scoutfish - I crossed posted last night, and missed your post. I didn't see it until EagleDad made reference to it, and I was wondering where he got the reference from.. Funny, some ideas we even paralled each other on. EagleDad - if you dislike the term pompous & smug, then I am fine to adopt Scoutfish's terms of arrogent & with tunnel vision. And I was not stating pompous & smug about the narrow relm of the rule BSA has for gay scouts, the topic at the time had moved past that issue and had evolved into a discussion on America looking outside it's own boundries to learn from other countries by comparing and contrasting to find bright ideas from other people.. Ideas that could work here.. Scoutfish nailed it. But EagleDad, this comment Second, Moose suggest we have NOT yet looked with in because he hasn't seen a change in heart of program. Yet, any rational person could see that the kind of changes he is suggesting have not been successful in other scouting organizations. And what are the big problems? I saw his words mainly a bashing Americans for thinking different from him. First the heart of the BSA program is not our policy to bar homosexuals.. At least I hope not, otherwise it would be time to find a new organization. I thought the heart of our program was to help young men (and women in Venturing & Explorers) grow into self-confident young adults with good morals, understanding of civic duty, good leadership skills, Intrest in outdoor adventure, and respect for the differences and diversity of other individuals & groups (except for 2 specific groups ahemm..) Also changes don't normally come from within, they come from not having tunnel vision looking at what others are doing and/or welcoming new people into your group who have fresh ideas from other organizations, companys, and cultures and listening to therm rather then shutting them up and trying to create them into a carbon copy of yourself. Third I am not bashing Americans for thinking different them me.. If this statement is in regards to BSA's policy on homosexuals as stated the comment was not directed at that. For another thing day by day, generation by generation, more Americans think like I do on this policy.. If the comment was made as a generalization about all Americans about how we generally think about looking to other countries for ideas.. then first off I am an American, so I did not exclude myself from that comment.. I consider myself as pompous & smug as the rest of my fellow Americans.. second I don't disagree with every American on every topic on the face of the planet.. If I did I should go be a hermit living in a cave away from everyone else in society.. But aside from that.. Whenever you visit in NH, look me up, I will set you a place at our dinner table. Commented to add.. By the way I am a she, not a he! (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Welcome! I used to live in Illinois over 20 years ago.. Nice place, but needs some hills.. The photography will come in handy, if a scout was troop historian, he was suppose to do pictures, but would get too involved to remember. But, the pictures come in handy for a slide show, or web site, or poster setup.. If they have a scout doing historian, see if you can offer some of your pictures in aiding him in his job.. Have fun!

Playing what if, and how you would personally feel if the situation changed.. Doesn't have anything to do with what is.. BSA makes alot of decisions, that some group agree with them, some don't and everything is discuss on this board.. The new backwoods rule that requires you to be within certain weight limits if you go 30 minutes from a access road. The rule that a patrol can still go on day events without adult supervision, but can no longer go on overnights without 2 deep leadership. Soccer Scouting.. etc. etc.. So this was an open discussion about BSA acknowledging the gay youth scouts as knowing their mind, and being more accepting of homosexuals.. It will probably be brought up again 3 or 4 months down the road.. I will personally still remain open & accepting regardless of what BSA stance is.. You guys have no problem with Old_OX_Eagle83, LisaBob or Scoutfish who all 3 are in the BSA and have no problem with homosexuals in scouting.. If you don't feel the need to discuss & debate BSA topics, why be on the forum.. Just follow the BSA rules without any individual thoughts. By the way, I know the difference between a homosexual and a pedophile, it was others accusing me that my view on how to work with openly gay scouts might be because I had some ridiculous views about them.

Thanks Hawkrod - You & I agree on alot of things.. OGE's comment was probably residule from an recent past thread where some of us where believing the hire/fire was as you state. The committee is made up of various people who have a good handle on if the program is running well and who of the parents would be excellent canidates for this position or that one.. They also are on the front line to know about serious problems and what or who those problems are.. Therefore as a group (not the CC alone), they have a right to vote on the right people for the job or right replacements for the problems and the COR 95% to 99% of the time will support their decisions.. Others believe if the COR signs the final papers, then committee has zippo power and have no rights even discussing who to hire/replace.. Only thing I sort-of differ with (but probably because of unit differences).. While the Committee may enforce participations important to the CO, the SM could do that on his own without the Committee needing to remind him.. We had 2 SM's who were already marking the Memorial Day parade, Law Enforcement parade and a clean-up day we do for a community organization. He will bark out the "manditory attendence" when announcing these important dates. So that piece may not need committee involvement.

What was the site.. I got mine for WB, but I might get my son one for that price, and will inform those on my WB staff (we are told it is red or no jacket for late Aug-Oct New England area)..

Eagledad -- I am laughing here for how out of context & twisted that interpretation was! If you look at my posts my attitude is certainly not "a personal axe to grind that is political in nature" I am not at the head of a protest March down to Texas to establish change.. I am someone who is secure in the fact that if change happened, it will simply, work out with a few alterations.. Alterations that I got reamed for as treating gays unfairly, until I explained that in my view I am doing everything to treat everyone equally.. Some may still believe that putting two guys in a tent when one or both are homosexuals is just fine, but I think I settled for most the fact that although I veiw things differently, it is not because I see homosexuals as 2nd class, or with a disease that will rub off, or that homosexuality is the same as a pedophile.. The BSA policy is right now a "Don't ask, Don't tell" For adults. And "Youth are not able to figure out their sexual orientation". So a change to the program is just allow for the youth, those homosexuals that are in our program feel more comfortable, and those that leave the program when they feel at odds with the viewpoint on homosexuality, to be comfortable enough to stay.. And if Adult homosexuals were allowed in.. Well it just means some other great Adult leaders would be added, because they would be people with a common interest in the program.. It does not matter to me that when we go our seprate ways, the partner they go home with may be same sex, because it's none of my buisness, and the guy/gal can still start a great fire, and cook a mean batch of chili.. No political agenda, just a healthy sense of "Well why not?" As for the pompous & smug remark was in no way a remark of how we treat others.. And isn't even in relationship to gays.. The gay issue was over with, and the debate was about if we Americans look at other countries to compare our program, and if other programs may have ideas that would be benificial.. My viewpoint is in line with Lisabob & Eamonn As for comparison to others - this is just not a very American thing to do. We have a tendency to assume that our way is the best way, without examining the evidence or considering alternate interpretations or measures. After this is turned to how we Americans act within foreign countries..

Our troop invited, but few came.. Last night hubby & I went visiting another troop who invited us. (We are just starting to go out visiting, we are at district level, not unit level.) Many things were different, and it was nice to take note of the differences.. And alot was going on to get a feel for the way the troop worked.. 1) They hold their meetings during the troop meeting.. SM comes in for his piece, and stayed for an important topic. 2) Called a Parents meeting for the purpose of getting the parents to come, held on same night for the purpose to get parents to come. They had about 30 in attendance. They did comment it was a high turnout but they were voting on a trailer, and were proposing doing away with charging at each event (which I guess many show up on the day, without fees, go and don't pay).. To charging $100 per year then not charging for any normal monthly camping events (HA events excluded.) Anyway.. Big interest in subject matter. 3) All voted in the troop, registered or not. 4) Still had some problems getting parents to take on positions, so it was a topic that night.. Alot of their jobs title functions did not run as per the way National outlines, for example no Outdoor Coordinator, but a high Adventure coordinator (Secratary was to do tour permits.).. Anyway, with all the parents there they brought up some were doing 2 jobs, and passed around the list of vacant jobs, and other jobs they wished for a strong assitant to learn from the person who was doing it as backup.. Didn't get all jobs filled, but got two or three, and got a strong message out to the others at the table. 5) there was a young scout that sat at the table all but maybe the last 15 minute, I though he would have an Eagle presentation, or be there to discuss a PLC idea or next years calendar.. Never did figure out why he was there, he made some suggestions and seemed comfortable being there. Anyway a great introduction to how their troop functions behind the scenes. We hope to get back soon for a Troop meeting. Edited to add one humorus comment from SM, when talking about who currently was doing which positions (who were doing 2 jobs etc).. "Ok, everyone knows I'm SM.. But SM is not part of the committee.. I work for you.. You can fire me anytime.. Any time. Really, if you want to fire me now, I'm gone.. Really any time..".. Just was funny how he said it, and I know again some people thing the committee does have the power (as long as COR supports them) others do not.. I know the viewpoint of this topic by this SM.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Yeah Eamonn, I took note of that comment on the thread also. But, like Eagledad equated it to the fact that countries are small & close together so, it is more doable in the UK. Being in NH, I guess it would not be too bad to look to Canida if we had that as part of the requirement. A few of our scouts (my son included) did the Bahama Sea Base, but that was costly and few went because even with fundraisers, the rest was up to the family to foot the bill.. Our troop is not one of the ones that can fundraise for the day and pull in 10,000 dollars.. Our fundraiser end up bringing in little, so for the Seabase, we had to run multiple fundraisers and still only got about half raised. Parts of this country would be hard press to figure out a way to get to another country if that became a requirement.

Hmmm.. Hearing some of your tales, I know our board (although as stated earlier follows the outline, as it is pretty much the outline you would get if the boy filled out his workbook).. Is far gentler on our boys then some of you.. When my husband goes off to a board night, or maybe when he returns, I joke with him about making those canadates sweat.. But truely they are not like that, they like the boys to be relaxed and try to do thing to make them feel more comfortable.. Joking with them, or the adult who is presenting them, or some warm conversation before getting down to buisness.. Then most projects are approved without any changes.. They may ask more questions, of a boy who does not have the gift of explaining themselves well, or does not seem as organized as they should be.. If some things need to be added (say thoughts about first aid precautions, or tools) they are discussed but do not keep the project from being approved. A few times a project may not be enough to show leadership ability, or too much.. But the too little is usually verbally discussed and agreed on the "additional" verbally and the workbook is signed, or the too much is questioned, but the boy usually does not want to go back and request that they take on 1/2 the project so the boys tell them they want the project as is even if it is alot more work then needed.. I think once or twice their may have been need signatures missing, or something needed to be changed, but it was approved on condition of. Then the boy went off got the signatures or fixed the issue and the either met or called the head of the Eagle board, and his project was a go without waiting a month comeing back to the board and doing everything over again.. The only thing I think our board does that is not in the guidelines is they do like to see that 100 hour minimum in the boys projected hours for the project, get nervous if it looks like over 300.. It is just one of the measuring tools they use to make sure the boy has enough of a project to be able to show his leadership abilities (the other is making sure the project is asking for more volunteers then just the boy and a contractor, or his family) The boys normally don't do the hour projection correct, so sometimes they say 50 hours and the board will look over the project and say "No, you have at least 120 hours, your good.." or someone will say "100 hours" and they will say "No, you have a good 400 hours, because of A, B, C.. It is really way more then you need, these are your options, what would you like to do." or the boy will say "80 hours", and the board will say "That's about right, but you should have at least 100 hours.. What if you do 1 more park bench, or add a fundraiser to maintain the benches" or whatever.. they work on what the boy is willing to add in. And our board does not require construction project.. Lots of Trail cleaning, we have one scout doing a large plot of veggies to provide to the Food pantry all summer long, organizing drives to send something to military, or people hit by floods or other disastors.. An Autisic scout did some community event to raise awareness of autisim, a great program (shortly after 9/11) that was open to the community about Flag awareness, and proper way to display the flag and retire the flag.. There are many good projects out there that do not need something in concrete that you can come back to and say "See what I did"..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Summer Camp the old fashioned way.. Neat.. First Aid is good, but for the one MB we always encouraged Swimming, Great time to do it in, not so "classroom oriented", it also has about of T-2-1 skills, and it was what our troop required of the boys to do anything the troop did that was aquatic, other then basic swimming (as a swimming trip provided opportunity to work on the badge if they did not yet have it).. A week of Troop camping, means doing your own meals so plenty of opportunity for them to work on the cooking & food prep/handling.. So this should be planned so that all boys get opportunity to earn it, but shouldn't feel like a school course either. Make sure you build your own flagpole, and this helps with lashes (though you will need more things for ropes) and your Flag requirements..

Sorry, my last post was in a rush, hubby wanted to get to a meeting.. One thing I forgot to add, I just added someone new to the committee a 21 yo, who I gave a position MIB was interested in. Reason I looked for someone else & did not give to MIB is due to "too much family".. That is why he has been looking at the OA rep, and Popcorn Kernel, and but it looks good that after summer break he will be do RT commissioner.. MIB is great help in training, and I definately consider him as part of my team, but I have not given him any official position on the committee.

MIB - kinda got it wrong, I have 3 others on my committee, it is just we never meet as a committee, the District Committee meeting is just the committee chairs and we report to the DCC & DE, we don't have the suggested layout of everyones committee comes to the meeting, and we break out into committees to discuss things. But, yes Ken's fiance is a person I have given the leeway on many courses, split up the work with, not because she is almost family, but because she is currently studying to be a teacher at college, she has major organizational skills with people all throughout this state, and sometimes with out-of-staters.. But I also have another school teacher, a nurse who is big with special needs children, and a person who has been in boy scouts & cub scouts for many years. qwazse - I like some of your ideas, the coffee kiask & snacks are great! We do plan for outside, but after my first IOLS I always plan for a large room in case of bad weather. Still even with bad weather somethings just have to be outside. Unfortunately, we can't hold any training at Roundtables, especially large ones.. The RT commissioner doesn't see it as bring in new people who could come back but stealling people who should be in the BS or CS breakouts..

Great! Although I believe if we provide the food, it would just be the raw food, all patrols must cook it themselves.. So it is more someone with the know how as to purchase enough food for x amount of people, seperate it into patrols, and figure out how to store the food (especially food needing cooling) and transport it.. As I said, unless we get someone in the group with experience, I too see it easier to go with patrols organizing their own.. I will ask around at my meeting tommorrow.

Good point, BP.. I was somewhat eluding to this myself.. Son is a little excited about this project, before it was a normal IOLS I had given him the reins on, and with that, it would have been as he has seen me do for IOLS, and my Vice Training Chair do for other trainings, he was head organizer with help from willing family members.. It has sunk in that this could be big, and a great project for him, but, I do not think it has sunk in that this is now time to switch over to it more being a course director and having a "committee", and best solution may come down to a vote, or if someone is heading up a section, then the head of that section, will need freedom to make his own choices as to the best way to get it done.. Take all ideas now as possibilities, get more info on who we can get to help, and has knowledge of how to run the operation and is willing to take lead, then choose the best solution.. Example : CTBailey's idea about us providing the food gives me the willeys personally knowing the choas over providing food for a group of 28.. But, if we get on the staff a person who has experience at being a quartermaster at some large scout function, and they volunteer to do this.. It is an avenue to keep open and look into.. But since the choice of do we buy the food or the participants work as a patrol buy their own and split the cost, is one thing that is keeping me from putting up the registration as it is a BIG factor in what we will charge.. So it is something to figure out soon..

Yes - Basement - We have no intention of reducing the time of the training, it will not be a one day event. The I's & me's are organization, and I think we do need more then I's & me's, but on my first IOLS, I was thinking "we" for organization, I found out soon my trainers just show up do their training part & leave, so I had to knock the "we" out of my head and go with "I" (and family help) for organization.. This time we should be looking for some organization help.. If the trainers don't want to do both, maybe some older boy scouts in need of some service hours, could work. I was kindof rolling around the idea also, that if we can't have the pre-course day that normally get two courses out of the way, and allowed us to skip the Friday evening part of the course, it might be wise to add the Friday evening back into the course.. Giving us the time to put the Backpacking skill back into the weekend course, and extra time for cooking to allow patrols to "show off" their cooking and walk around & learn from each other.. One of my Trainers also pointed out something we need to work out, that is that different skills have different timeings.. So unlike a camporee where you are at a station 1 hour and everyone moves, we have the issue of some skills being 1/2 hour, 1 hour, 1.5 hours.. This will cause some time blocking issues..

BP- I welcome your advice, but I still don't see where in my post I am saying I am only looking for people inside my district, and my normal instructors. ctbailey is from our council but another district and is very interested in joining in.. "Welcome!!".. I want to go to the June 22nd meeting and get some advice and support from other district trainers, and see if they can ask their trainers for people. Also I have a woodbadge meeting tommorrow night and our Council Training Chairs right hand woman will be there, so I can ask her some questions then, as well as see about 3 other District Training Chairs at this meeting. I told my normal Trainers who were at roundtable, we will be looking at borrowing some trainers from other districts for this event, they saw it as a resonable request seeing the other districts were not running their own IOLS.. The advice you give is sound, I just don't see where I have been displaying that this was not every bit of my intention from the get go. The instructor needs may be as you state, 15-20, but then we could use some troop guides and field organizers.. MIB - You have not gotten to know BP well on this board.. He is not rude.. In fact I am quite fond of his crusty, grumpy ways.. BP & I have had our differences in the past, and have ironed them out, and have come to an understanding. But every now and then he still likes to poke a stick at me for old times sake.

BP - It was not just MIB & MT, CTBailey & I have been bantering back & forth, I think he has some good ideas, but I am worried that both MIB & CTB may be having a few stars in their eyes, and not quite seeing that it will only be successful if we look at the possible problems and then try to find how to find a solution if they happen, rather then think great things and be thrown under the bus when unexpected problems arise.. Tonight I went to RoundTable & talked to some of my expirenced District Trainers who are also interested in the idea, again I said only if we can get help with other people in district.. OGE commented but somehow erased his whole post without even leaving a residual "edited by..".. But he had some good comment about it could be a disaster, along with BD.. But except for OGE (whose comment vanished, and BD no one but CTB & MIB has commented until you BP.. So I have been responding to mainly CTB & MIB.. Some of my comments on this thread made by me.. 1) my first comment doesn't make any sense because it was to OGE who vanished.. but a) I am also hoping that our Council Training Chair (CTC) also comes up with other solutions.. (ie.. want council help & advise) b) The district that had 50 participants thought it was a fabulous turn out and training..So I plan to get suggestions from them also.. (ie. want advise from other districts) c) If you had to put a minimum number on the course.. Would you do : (question to OGE for a comment on I should limit the course number. ie.. further discussion with someone who posted a comment in the thread (but then deleted it).. 2) Responding to CTB.. a) Not yet, our CTC is out of town until around June 22, (ie.. want to get with council on this, but right now can't.) b) But, I do think my son will need to organize and surround himself with a group of people who have good knowledge in organizing large gatherings to pull this off. (ie.. I do not want this to be a 2 person show WE WOULD NEED HELP) c) It will be great exposure for him, but I do have some of OGE worries.. (ie. I was listening to what OGE said..) d) Just remember.. Jamboree, WB, and Air Show.. We are spreading our expirienced scouters throughout our council very thin (ie.. need lots of help, can we get it with all going on?..) commenting to BasemenDweller (and also still a nod to OGE who had a similar view) a) If we can not do small individual classes, and personalized attention it would be better to downsize.. Comment to MIB a) Just things to think about, and a reason to check out others ideas on the subject, before deciding on any specific way to go. Door is open to ideas and peoples veiwpoints on good ways to handle it at this point... (ie.. keep your mind open to what others are saying at this time, now is a good time to absorb and then figure out the best solutions.. BP.. I don't see where I am only talking to MIB and ignoring other peoples comments.. I will agree on thing that does have me worried is this will only be out 3rd IOLS training.. I think I am getting comfortable running a normal size one.. This is a challenge.. (Hmm.. I think I am paying attention to you BP..) Eagle92 - I was thinking about maybe some NYLT staffers, they run their program in the summer so will be free in the Fall.. I will see if any of the District Trainers know of anyone in Venturing their districts working on Bronze, we have no one in our district who has passed in a single advancement in any of our crews in our district..

Garrison - the point made was that "we" Americans feel we are the best and will not look at other countries successes.. Which is true.. We are pompoue & smug.. In some cases we have our rights, in others we are not in the position to feel superior, and our attitude is causing big problems. You should always look at what others are doing to figure out ways to improve. You may not like 80% or feel it will not work in our situation, but then the 20% is worth taking a closer look at.. Improvement doesn't come by looking within, it is from looking at what others do, or welcoming diverse individuals into your group ones with different ideas who may shake you up a bit. If you have a troop that is not boy lead, we say take some training & go out and visit other troops to get new ideas.. If you need to learn something new, you take a course or buy a book, or ask those with expirience.. You can not learn or grow in a vaccum..

Basement - you are right.. Which is why if we go big, we have to splice off into small, or it will not work.. As CTBailey said sort of Scouting U style, where there is alot of people, but small individual classes. If we can not do small individual classes, and personalized attention it would be better to downsize..

I think ctBaileys email is on the contact list I gave you. Talk to him, he may have some different ideas.. Video is an option but not quite sold on it yet.. I think I am more partial to the small satalite 3 hour trainings, in different parts of the state, Or when people register, asking them some questions, and making sure an expirienced Scouter who just has not taken IOLS is on each patrol & made patrol Leader, to organize the equipment & food.. But, CT has some ideas for providing food which does not have to be jammed into our small utility wagon with all the other paraphnalia, and it would be worth listening to.. I am a little leery of organizing for last minute registrations though.. Some problems I have with the video, is that everyone is demanding all on-line training.. The IOLS is not something to be on-line, but if we start down the avenue of making a few things on video, they may start looking for more & more, until we get to that digital campfire program.. Sort of a slippery slope.. And one, I see other districts frowning on it.. If we invite trainers from other districts, you want them to feel the training was done in our district the right way.. Just things to think about, and a reason to check out others ideas on the subject, before deciding on any specific way to go. Door is open to ideas and peoples veiwpoints on good ways to handle it at this point...