moosetracker

There is a time limit between when you finish your project & when you have your board.. I believe it is 3 months.. We had one scout in our district that went 2.5 months before he turned in his application.. The Council & the Eagle board were in a tissy to get the board done in the next 2 weeks. I think some have gone longer, if they are away at college or were in the armed services or something, but that required National extending the time.. I don't think an extension will be made 15-20 years after you are 18.

I guess I don't see it as if they are trustworthy or not. I see it as do they understand what the MB process is all about.. If you enter a troop that is in eagle mill mode as a newbie, will you know that that isn't the way it should be? If you are someone who earned his eagle (and maybe all 100+ MB, while in a troop in eagle mill mode) you come in with a concept that your son should get the same opportunity as you growing up. I guess I can remember a time just after my son went into his troop where I thought like a helecopter parent.. Looked at the requirements, and the MB's and thought this isn't so hard.. I was talking to my son in the car trip home about if he did this and that, he could bump off his Eagle real early.. Husband who had been a boy scout and made Eagle, was in the car as I was talking to son, and said "Absolutely not!!!!".. But, didn't explain it, and I didn't understand what the problem was.. It took me about a year to catch on to why this isn't such a good idea. I wouldn't call myself "untrustworthy", I would have called myself "uneducated".. That is why I was thinking this might be a good troop to visit in the Fall and talk to, see what their program is like, and either help the troop (or if the troop has a fine program) help this MBC hopeful, better understand what the program is like. We do not have manditory MBC classes.. With all the problems maintaining the MBC list that we have had over the years, plus the new YPT rule that we are having a hard time getting MBC to send that with the application.. Anyway, we are already haveing troops working with MBC's that they have approved without sending info to Council.. We would have alot more doing their own thing, if we added manditory MBC training on top of all the newly mandated things National has added or are intending to add. Councils/districts that added that years ago, so that it is a way of life before the anger of all the National Mandated stuff happened, have a good thing already in the works.

Den Chief for years while working with adults Leaders other then your parents, fine. Den Chief for a year for your parent as the Den Leader, fine. Den Chief for years, maybe even your whole scouting career. I too would have a hard time with this, unless the scout was doing this job plus other positions in the troop (as Calico pointed out.).. Why?.. Like doing all your merit badges with your mom & dad being your MBC, you are not having adult association other then within your own family unit. You are not learning to spread your wings and challenged to try new things. Parents may get you to do the Den chief job, but you aren't learning to work with others. Parents may be using it to allow "little johnny" to cheat and get to Eagle rank without doing anything.. Scout needs to learn what is expected of him in a POR that is not just satisfying mommy's idea of what he is capable of doing. Now if you have 2 or more scouts who are all working den chief within their own mothers den, I may be acceptable of them staying Den Chiefs if they do a den swap, and go and work in the den of the other scouts' mommy rather then their own.

operatingeng - don't worry, this isn't a hornets nets, it a friendly debate over a vertual campfire. If you look at other post, you will see this is gentle.. Many of us have been hanging around the board for a while, and we enjoy a friendly tussle of ideas..

Yes but the committee "should" be an assembly of the parents concerned with the way the troop is run. If you are a parent and don't like the decisions coming out of the committee, then you become a concerned parent on the committee.. Therefore a group of the parents who make up the committee decided this was a fair decision, knowing they too would have to pay the fee. During the committee meeting if a fear of people leaving was an issue, this should have been brought up and discussed before the vote. It is 5yearScouter who has people walking, and rightly so. Why fundraise, then hoard it in a bank, and ask the parents to pay for everything anyway. This is one person who is making an assumption, that is not prooved one way or the other and it is against the wishes of the parents of the troop who are actively involved with the troop. If the troop is willing to offer fundraising to off set the fee, then that would solve those who have financial stress.. Money does have to come from somewhere to run a troop. Fundraising or Fee, take your pick.. A Scouting troop who removes the "outing" from Scouting due to the fact they don't have the equipment to go out, will loose families just as fast or faster...

No the SM is only in the function of the SM being the one that refers the scout as to which MBC's to use. A meritbadge Mill SM may not care if the MBC's have no experience to teach a MB, but a SM that cares about the quality of his program may.. If this guy is troop only, then the SM should know him. Maybe would recommend him for MB that are in his vocation or interests, but steer the boys away from him if he has no background in it, just signed up for everything. The Council Advancement Chair did agree with what you stated. Basically stated he can't be an expert in it all, so he needs to narrow down to what he is an expert in. We have some MBC's who legitimately do hold ALOT.. But not all.. Those who have a vocation at the Fire Department seem to be ones that are experts in ALOT, between first Aid, Emergancy Prep, fitness, forestry etc. Their jobs seems to make them stick their fingers in alot of pies.. And they could even have a few intrests outside their vocations, but I would still raise an eyebrow if they professed to be an expert on Every single subject in the world.

On the surface of what the OP wrote I don't see much wrong with the vote, it is not something a CC should veto.. Personally, I too may have chosen a fundraising. With our committee it is just a yearly budget and then figuring what is needed to raise the funds for the budget. One year may by higher then the next year, depending on what we see as the future expenses of the coming year, or the unexpected expenses of last year that depleted the kitty.. Then everyone gets told what the troop is doing for fundraising and asked to sell X amount or be involved x hours. If they dont they need to pay X fee (or a portion of, if they did a portion of the fundraising).. But each troop is different, some just charge the fee to not have the headache of fundraisers that their members want no part of, or that they have no one willing to coordinate and organize. Sure, in 5yrScouter troop this vote would be ludicrous..But, that is coloring the small amount of information we have with a personal bias. 5yr that is a ridiculous slush fund!!!! But, the OPs story could just as easily be that of a troop low on funds, with members who have a history of not showing up to fundraisers, and expecting a free ride. Maybe they just had all their equipment wiped out by a tornado, fire or flood Or it has just gotten very seedy because year after year they have not had the funds to replenish it.. Really the background story could be anything, so again for what little I have to go on, I will say that on the surface, it is not something for a CC to have veto power over. $25 is reasonable (Provided this is not tacked onto the $100 per year fee they are already charging).. It is about the price of a dinner for two at a typical restaurant, and it is to purchase something that should last many years. As others have stated before, all other youth organizations have fees or expect members to work the fundraisers.. Little league, Band etc.. Also as stated earlier this committee was not voting for to do something against BSA policy, or triggering a safety issue that would force some sort of veto. The budget and how to raise the capital for it is a typical, day to day decision that committees take a vote on all over the country..

I know our board has looked at a project and estimated too big or too small (or just right) (reminds me of the Three little Bear story). With the too small ones they find a thing or too to fatten it up a bit without loosing sight of the project, add one or two benches, throw a get together with the new ______ is christen by being used for the first time.. For the too big, they will discuss that it is way too big.. But I know scouts have stubbornly insisted they understand the committement and want this project, they then don't stand in their way.. A few do get them completed also.. I have yet to hear my husband flat out turning down a project due to it being big, I am unsure how many they have effectively redirected either. Normally I hear about the stubborn scouts, who refuse to take heed.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Whenever a scout talked "BIG" I would just steer him to think about other aspects.. The one that got some to downsize the most was thinking about being fair to other scouts that are coming after them. This only worked though if they were planning that their major workforce was those in the Troop, if they had alot of outside help Friends, family, Churchmembers it did not. But, I would ask him to think about those boys who were at life, or almost at life, how many were at this stage? Then have him consider the time he would be asking of the Troop members for his project. There is a chance that by the end of his project, many will be burnt out.. But, if others in the troop were going to be asking for help at the same time as his project then their help would be split up between that many projects.. And if he alone, or he and the 2 or three projects all going at the same time, burnt out the labor force, what would happen to the 2 or three scouts who came after them and asked for help for their Eagle projects.. With your son make sure he thinks of the time for all the fundraising as well as the bridge building. If he still wants to pursue it, get him to at least look for who else beside troop members he can use. You also, rather then being his sole Engineering advisor, do you know a few friends in the field who may also take on advisory roles. I am not an Engineer so I am unsure if you can split a project into 2 or 3 parts for different Engineers, but if you could, your son would be asking for less commitement from your associates, ans your son could benefit from other collaborations other then it being a Father/son project.

Basement - On a personal note - my hubby & I are in complete agreement with your interpretation. It may be his son or it maybe the troop, but, seems like someone is gearing up to run a meritbadge mill.. (He is listing himself as troop only) On a professional level the question is, do we have any rights to stop it.. My personal idea is to put this troop on our list of troops that we would like to make a visit to.. and if this guy is not normally at a troop meeting (I would bet he would be).. To ask if he could swing by for a visit while we are visiting the troop.. Maybe we will have a SM who is not on board with this guys ambitions, or maybe we do.. We could do some informal training / education (Hubby as DAC, me as District Training Chair).. Could walk away thinking that we did some good, or anything we said flew past deaf ears.. Then What?.. Do we have to sign him up for everything because we have no rights to say No? Does anyone see the visit as overstepping our bounds? I know some people complain that no one from district cares.. Others complain that no one from district should get involved with their personal units. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

OK, I know we have discussed that the District Advancement Chair can not limit the number of meritbadges an MBC can teach.. But does he have the right to look at what they put down as qualifications & question it? Husband is District Advancement Chair, and he has this question into the Council Training chair but just wondering wha the forum thinks. We have one guy who has filled out umpteen forms and I would guess signed up for every MB that is listed. Our council does have the requirements that with guns you need to be certified, and with swimming/lifesaveing you need to be certified by red cross as a water saftey instructor.. After that we have no guidelines. This guy has listed everything and save one or two, he lists his qualifications as that he learned it as a scout.. So maybe this was one of the guys who earned every MB when he was a scout.. Does that make him qualified to teach every MB? Does my husband have any say in asking for higher qualifications? Or is this one of those things that since there are no guidelines, we have to accept everyone regardless of if they are qualified or not(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Kudu - Thanks, you solved the mystery of what SM Handbook the SM of the troop we came from is now working out of.. We just thought he was following the newer dumming down of scouting program. But, who knew he was really going back to the basics of the original BSA scouting program. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

If I know Abel from several other threads, that is not the point.. I think it is more the underhandedness of sneaking in units to earn the Quality Unit, in order for the district to get an award that it did not deserve.. Part of the underhandedness, was in not contacting the units he filled out the forms for, so that they would not question how they earned it. It is shady, but if your council does things like enroll kids & units that don't exist to cheat the system, why are you at all surprised by something like this.

Agree with Eagle707 also, but would add to look up some of your Merit badge counselors in your district for Swimming/Lifesavings. I am sure it is our policy, but our district will not allow anyone teach these two Merit badges without the Red Cross Water Safety Instructor certification. So I can't say that ALL you MBC's are guaranteed to have that certification (ours are). But, I would imagine you could find a few on your list who do have it. Difference between paying for the lessons & working with the MBC though would be time. With a paid instructor you could meet every day for a week. The MBC might be more like once or twice a month. It is just an idea to look into if the finances for the family are tight. (Must be the season, isnt this our 3rd question on the swimming requirement asked within the last week?)

Everyone who tells you something is a BSA rule is not lieing because the person doesn't really have the gumption to be honest and just stand on his/her own two feet. In fact I would say the majority is not.. They are in need of some re-educating, that is all. Most people toting the "BSA rule" is because someone else told them it was a rule, who heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else. The myth could have been started by a person without gumption to be homest or by someone who has been in a troop following a rule so long in standing they just don't know where it came from and everyone in the troop doesn't remember it was a unit policy, so have come to figure it must be a national policy.. Maybe it is my viewpoint due to my own personal experience. But my husband and I needed alot of "retraining" after leaving a troop that had alot of BSA rules. We went to a newer troop and proclaimed the BSA rules, and those people being new, did not question what we proclaimed.. Then we went to another troop, and got out for more training and started learning all the falsehoods we were spreading.. Now their were so MANY BSA rules that were not true, coming from this first troop we were in. I tend to think there was a gentlemen who was probably engineering his own BSA rules.. But had it been one or two, I would think it was that he too had been given some false statement that he truely believed made sense, or at least trusted the source of, and then passed it on.

Oh better yet, I will send hubby your way, he has not been to cub scout camp for years.. He was known to break out the silly string, and remove tents from around the sleeping occupants. I am sure he will think of something for you.. Just sleep with one eye open.

Ahhhhhhhh.. ain't that sweet!.. Just don't get too home sick on your vewy first night at camp.. Those animal noises can be vewy, vewy scarwy.. Especially the Wabbit noises..

I'm curious as to why you would think your current SM would be a great CC.. Kind of an odd switch.. Would your current SM prefer administration over program? Is he not a good SM? Also curious about this line.. She says she will be looking for someone to step in to the job this Summer She should not have total say in this.. I would think the first to have a say in the selection would be the COR.. If the COR does not want to be responsible for it then the committee should get together to discuss it and figure out good canadates and ask them. Or take submissions of those wanting the position and vote on who it should be.. If she is staying on the committee, she maybe can have a vote. The outgoing person really should not choose their successor, unless no one wants to do the job, and no one wants to do the searching.. Why don't you apply for CC?? Sounds like you would know how to get the committee educated and running right.

Wounded Fox, that is why I said, in my first post maybe Woodbadge needs some certification (athough even there, why?). You did answer it for me, it stems from working your ticket, that makes sense. Also there is the piece that you need to be fully trained in your Leadership position. What would that be for an AHG?? Otherwise you are right, Woodbadge is even promoted as being something that will help not only in your scouting world, but your career, and personal life.. I'm glad the parent angle helped you out. If you registered them in the troop, it might limit their ticket somewhat, but it would not be hard for them to do something that benefited both the troop & the AHG, but wrote it up more toward the benefit of the troop.. My son did part of his ticket on getting different troops in the area together for an event. That could be part of the ticket, or making something that both groups could use.. But, that might be seen as a little underhanded unless they do have kids in both groups, so truely feel great about working something that benefits both organizations, rather then just going through the motions for the troop, to get something signed off..

Although the question, may be considered a gray area depending on if you are fine with the moms sewing the uniform patches on, or feel the scout should sew his own.. And if you feel the parent sewing, means the scout does not have to be involved.. You really can't answer all the parents questions, without many of them being an answer of "That is not your responsibility, you need to have your scout deal with his.... fill in blank.. (Patrol leader, Merit badge counsilor, Advancement coordinator etc..) This is the way you slowly teach the parents that they can not walk little Johnny through like a puppet while they do all the work.. So, my question would be.. Why did this lady come back to the scout shop. Unless she lived across the street from it, the easy answer would have been to have son ask his patrol leader.. For her to ask other parents.. OR.. Look at where all the patches are located on the 20 older scouts that have their patches attached to their shirts all in the same location. Although she did not like the answer, she did recieve an answer, and I bet the Patrol Leader would have had the answer unless they had a new scout patrol with the PL being also a new scout. But depending on the troop some things are fine to talk to parents about, organizing money payments for an event, med forms for summer camp etc.. troops outlook, placement of patches may be seen as a parents function. But those things are on a sliding scale depending on what the troop see as the scouts responsibility, if you get to a troop like Kudu's, I bet even those things are the scouts responsibility.

Hmmm.. We can't get those from our district who are required to be trained to get to the trainings.. Really will we have a mob of non-scouters if we advertise our trainings are open? I don't think so.. But, really I don't think if some AHG Leader emailed me and said, "I saw you were holding IOLS, next week.. I am not registered with the BSA, but I could really use some skills with camping, would you mind if I signed up".. And I answered, "No problem. The more the merrier!" That requires me to take a front page ad out in the paper stating the xxxxx district is hosting an IOLS training open to anyone who wants to go only $8 per person.. Sort of like if my neighbors comes over and asks to borrow a movie I own, and I let them borrow it, I am in no way required to put a sign up in my front yard stating "Video Rentals Here!".. If someone asks, and it will not cost the District or Council to be neighborly, be neighborly.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

If the troop is good all but this one factor, then you have time to climb the ladder for a solution. So it would be to 1) talk to Scout Master about his dragging his feet on you SM Conference, if don't get good feedback 2) talk to Committee Chair - If don't get good feedback 3) talk to Charter Org. Rep - If don't get good feedback 4) Switch troops.. Of course if at any level the feedback is so bad you don't want anything to do with this unit anymore, option 4 can always be moved up to item #2 or #3.. Council don't mess up your records by transfering (at least I never heard of it).. It is basically leaving your records as is, but change the unit number that is associated with you.. A Youth application filled out, a $1.00 transfer fee (make sure you fill out the not only the new unit info, but your old unit info in the Transfer from area.) (edited to add) I was surprised no one else mentioned the escalation up to COR.. Are other peoples COR's unapprochable?.. Our youth talk to our COR's all the time, they routinely sit on the BOR's (they as in multiples over the years, not multiples all at one time)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

AnnLaurelB - interesting story, but I have heard of people stealing for cub scouts before.. I was more surprise that on your paper committee, you had someone on it, that actually was actively persueing something.. Maybe it was just the lawer thing and it was up his alley of interest. I was also surprise at how easy it was to garnish someones pay, with an intial arrest. I thought something like that would take lengthy court time.. Also I am surprised the guy was withdrawing a little at a time, rather then waited a year, then reached it a grabbed the full 5,000, then taken to the hills.. At first when I read it I read the word "Country" not "county".. I was like "he fled the country over 2,500?? Then I hit the part about the county-seat, and figured out it was not Country..

shortridge, Well I don't know about the AHG using a BSA facility at the same reduced rate that a BSA group would get. That would wrap around some similar debate of Hotel or flight bookings. If you can get full price, for a rental that of course is best. If you have unused area that could be rented, but is going vacant, is it better to fill it at a reduced rate? (but then what if you fill it and the full paying customer comes in?? Oh well, to much accounting analysis for my brain.. Accounting Blach! I can tell you as a district trainer, you estimate what to charge participants for a course based on what you are going to use in supplies and an estimate of how many people you expect to sign up for a course. If you run under, you fall into the red, if you are accurate in your guessing (and expected costs for supplies) you come out even, if you have more then you guesstimate, you are providing the snacks or dessert or something so you do not make too much of a profit.. So if I get more in my class due to some AHG group wanting to join the training, or anyone else who walked off the street, but has a desire to learn what the course is teaching (I can only imagine this interest from the outside public for IOLS/OWLS, maybe some supplamentals like fundraising or recruiting youth or adult Leaders).. Anyway, where are they mooching? The more in my class the better for me.. As for their more religious foundation.. As long as they don't try to convert me, or preach to me during my training course, it isn't my concern. I guess if I can overlook some of BSA's self-rightous opinions that have people picketing against our program, I can overlook theirs.

Also check with the Swimming/Life Guard MBC's that are on your district list.. They may not have time to devote to one scout at summer camp, but have plenty of time when it is doing the MB one on one.. But I am related to 3 who are MBC's. Any one of them would spend time to work with the boy, many times they go together 2 to 3 and the kid (or group of kids from a unit) have more help then they know what to do with. Don't know about your area, but $5-$10 gets you into a hotel pool, but for boy scouts many wave or reduce the fee. And we have a Sports center who will also wave the fee for Boy Scouts.. The MBC's for swimming in your area, may have already found the local pools that are cheap or wave the fee.