moosetracker

Curious, about sneaking it in with the recharter. A bunch of entry operators not knowing the policy and just making the switch. We fill our applications out when the change occurs any time during the year. Therefore, even if it occurs a few weeks before recharter, we are conditioned to know the application needs to be in with the position change, and do it by the book. I believe it has to do with the Charter Org. Reps signiture of approval for the person to be in the new position. But also because the computer systems and systems of operations for BSA is so antiquated.. njdrt-rdr - you can not become Cub Master until the old one officially resigns as there can only be 1 Cub Master for a unit.. If you are remaining a den Leader while being an Asst Cub Master, then just stay as Den Leader, and do the ACM job as just being a helpful parent, until the time comes to become the official Cub Master.

Not yearly, but not only when join. It is more like everytime you want to change or add a position of some type.. From committee member to den leader redo form. from den leader to Cub Master. Redo form. From Cub Master to Asst. Scout Master. Redo form. Want to be a merit badge counsilor? Redo form. Going to help in District with training? Redo form. Youth protection lapsed, got knocked out of your positions? then re-up your Youth protection and redo form 3 times 1 for ASM, 1 for merit badge counsilor, 1 for District training..

I will take a look at the syllabus to see what it says on camping.. I know they definately have it stated when the staff stays with them, and when they are on thier own.. Being that it is outdoors and you deal with what you have to work with, I don't know if it states you have to hike them out so far.. Some of our participants did not even do the backpack part for health reasons. They were put in a single patrol (I think there were 3 of them) and they stayed in a staff cabin and their patrol that was healthy camped next to the cabin, so they stayed in a patrol. But, remember the backpacking is not in this course so much teach scout craft.. This is a leadership course, and since the participants are den leaders, committee members as well as scout master, the intent is not to teach backpacking, and some will maybe never go out camping with the troop.. So the backpacking part is not about a lenthy hike.. it is to simulate the experience for the purpose of how to slowly empower the youth to run their own patrol..

Totally! We payed $85 dollars this year to be on staff. That pays for our food during staff training dates, and our food during the course, our T-shirts and our course manuals.. We don't pay the full course fees, but we pay our own way..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I don't quite understand "outpost".. There is the beginning where you camp similar to summer camp style in the canopy tents with bunks.. And yes the patrols are seperated into different campsites, but I am not sure that is defined one way or the other in the course book, as it is suppose to be a new troop with unskilled youth.. Then there is the change to backpack style camping using your own gear.. And yes, the patrols are seperated (staff on that first night, when they camp with the patrols. Also seperated.) Traditionally the backpacking is a little further out in the camp, but should not be a 2 hour hike! So I question the term "outpost". We, the scribes could walk around to deliver the mail to the sites in about an hours time from leaving the scribe office to returning..

There was one night the patrol did do a campfire. But they were free before & after it, so yeah an hour out of that night.. The second night the SM & SPL visited briefly to give out something. But the patrols asked if they could have their cracker barrel in the dining hall due to it being rainy and we had to refuse it, but did secure them a little more cozier cabin. That is the night of the STAFF dinner.. We get wined & dined, you don't. But the only dressier bit was we remove our plaid necker for the taupe (finished the WB course) neckers.. Because of the STAFF diner the participants are asked not to come seek out staff unless there is an emergancy.. Now for that dinner yep the works.. shrimp appetizers, and chocolate fondue and surf & turf etc. etc.. fire in the fireplace and candles on the table.. And the fanciest of camp dinnerware.. (well it sort of looked like your everyday plates, but you can imagine.) NO PARTICIPANTS ALLOWED.. The STAFF needed to be there each Thursday for the Friday to Sunday courses. Not the participants.. Your course was messed up!!! I don't think Staff dinner is in the course book, and may be our little local extra.. But the fact that you are left on your own the last night definately is.. The first night the Staff who have leadership position in troop 1.. Scout Masters, ASM's, and troop guides camp with the participants, but each patrol and the staff should be camped at different sites, spread out as Kudu always promotes with 300 yards or more between each one, and the troop does get together for a campfire with skits.. The second night a big "to do" is made over you guys being skilled enough to camp on your own, and you are left out there ON YOUR OWN!!!" The split weekend would only give you two nights out camping, but I would imagine the full week with the extra night would give you 3 nights since they have an extra night. If you had to start on a Thursday, that should have meant an extra camping night for your patrol.. Maybe your friend who was on staff will not show you the syllabus because he know they did not follow it.. I would see no problem showing the syllabus to someone who has taken the course, because we would have nothing to hide.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Well our participants did accuse us of not scheduling enough "nap" time also. Yeah, patrol time can still be filled with planning what your patrol is responsible for. But, you should have had 2-3 of the evenings free from dinner time on and breakfast free. The last few days gave you time for organizing and finishing your project.. I would think a week long would need to work in more time to create a project, and I have no clue what type of materials they are limited in using, while the 2 weekend course we run, may give you almost 2 weeks of prep and freedom of collecting the materials you will need.. Still since everyone is organizing from their own little corner of the council, there needed to be time for everyone to assemble their items, this above and beyond your normal daily patrol time. Then there just seemed to be extra time given.. I know because as a staffer I was expected to get my work done, and be in attendance to all scheduled stuff. Including te presentations as the scribes ran the projector and laptops if powerpoint was used (as well as to show those movie clips & the movie.. I was greatful for the extra breaks in weekend 2 that gave "ME" time to scribble.. By the way, as too the original question about the movie.. Yeah, not my favorite part of the course either. We had good presenters before & after the movie that brought out the points that your were to get about leadership styles from the movie.. But.. your right, we could do something better to get the point across.. But, we need to follow the syllabus, so it is just something to suggest to National as to finding a better way to get the point across.. I personally don't mind the video clips.. Again part of the syllabus, but short enough that you get the point in a 3 minute clip rather then a 2.5 hour movie.

I would not say that patrol time was really a feature of my second weekend. Does that mean you were not given patrol time? Or does that mean you did not bond with your patrol, so your patrol time was not enjoyable? Of course if you weren't given patrol time, it is hard to bond with your patrol..

The code word at our course was "Semper Gumby" (Always flexible).. There is definately ALOT to get through, and you promise to follow the course outline. That does pull a tight time-table. Although on staff this time through, I was also watching as if for the first time. My course 7 years back was not the same as this course (or I forgot ALOT).. The First weekend I did kindof feel that the itinerary was directing the free flow of the patrols.. The second weekend though had enough "patrol" time that the itinerary was not so much the driving force, but they did have a few more presentation, The inter-faith service directed by the patrols an the patrols project presentations. So still a schedule to keep. But more so like a camporee agenda.. The camporee has x, y, z to attend, but the troop had alot of patrol time and even the events was more defined by the participants in how they wanted to accomplish the task at hand. And there was enough times that the code word "Semper-Gumby" was used.

desertrat - many people in Troops do not "get it".. That is why we have so many Adult Lead troops, or failing troops.. Being an Eagle scout does not necessarily mean that you "get it" if you were raised in an Adult lead troop.. Can you even tell me that half the troops out there truely "get it"? If you do "get it" then great.. Help those in your patrol to get it, and learn from the individual presentations on Leadership skills. Between the simulated troop and all the Leadership presentations then you should get something from the course. If not then pardon me for pardon me for stepping on the toes of the almighty Mr. Perfect.. Who just is so perfect that there is no room for improvement. Who lives in a Council that is built of the most perfect units that we should all go by the thousands to worship the Council of the perfect units.

He can not send him packing if it is not his unit that he is a UC for. If the Pack does not find it a problem, then they will not send him packing either. Is your Charter Org Rep anyone that takes an interest in the BSA units they host? They should want a healthy Pack and Troop. If this UC is hurting the relationship between Pack & troop then they can get involved and send the UC packing. If your COR is not interested. It is worth you speaking to your DE about it. The DE does not like to have a unit fail as it hurts his numbers. If the troop the UC is herding your cubs to is already large and this is causing your Troop to have issue that could cause it to fail if not rectified, the DE should be concerned enough to pull the plug on it. You can put it in the light of it not being a fair and ethical practice ie "UnScoutlike". Can't think of what the word is, but he is using his UC position for personal gain.. And add words that would get the DE to draw the conclusion the activity will lead to a failing unit, which bottom line would be a black mark on his ticket.. Then the DE should feel compelled to stop the practice for one of two reasons. Because it is an unfair practice or due to his own personal incentive.. One of the two things should light a candle under his butt.

For a full course of 48 participants, we run at about 20 staffers. They are grouped as 6 person patrols not 8 person patrols, so that is 8 Troop guides. We have two Scribes, and having stayed up until one or two in the morning each night, and needing to be up by 6:30.. and on the last night staying up to 4:30 (so only having 2 hours of sleep while my fellow scribe did not go to bed at all that night.. I would not even think of making that one scribe. We get one elf (elves are helpers, but not staff), for being every where to take photos.. We have two for physical arrangements and those two were running non-stop.. I could not see only having one for that either.. Then their is you Course director (or Scoutmaster) your SPL who is also part of the limelight with the Troop Guides as in who is leading them. ASM of program, who organizes the schedule and makes sure everyone knows what they are suppose to do, when they are to be at activities and when not etc.. Quarter master with a whole bunch of Kitchen Elves who help but are not "considered on staff". ASM of Troop Guides.. Maybe not so important if all your TG are seasoned WB staffers but needed when they are mainly first time staffers as they need more guidence then the ASM of program can provide. An optional position we have is that of Mentor to the Course director. There are other optional positions that we do not use.. I also saw in a different WB course they had 4 Scribes on staff, where we only have 2 and I guess they say you should run with only 1 and have everyone else be elves.. Therefore I guess you have some leeway in your course as to how many are on staff. But you are warned to not have Staffer creep, as it is not about the staff, it is about the participants. Woodbadge is more then your normal training, as the simulation of you being part of a troop is almost like carrying on a well timed show where the participants are part of the cast.. Sort of like a Mystery dinner theater but more so, as the participants do not get silly little bit parts, they are the main charactors of the cast.. In carrying on the training in a very intensive staged setting, it takes alot of staffers to carry on the behind the scenes so that it looks well organized.. For the Quarter Master remember he is feeding almost 70+ people. The participants and staff of a full course make almost 70. Then the elves, then their are visitors such as the old course directors are invited to the blue and gold and the Staff recognition dinner.. He is feeding them for Breakfast/Lunch / Dinner for a full 3 days after that sometimes it is just the staff as the participants do their own meal planning and cooking out at their patrol sites. Then their is the dish cleanup. That is more then one QuarterMaster can handle all by themselves. They also maintain the budget of all the other purchases for woodbadge.

OwnTheNight - There are always going to be staffers who like to do one job only and don't want to move to other positions. My TG absolutely loved being a TG, but that's all she wants to do when she staffs. It certainly worked out for me, she was well prepared, and understood the material backward and forward Strange I thought that it wasn't totally taboo, but it was frowned upon to have someone repeat the same postion. So once a TG, if you return it shouldn't be as TG again, it would have to be as something else. Many people state they only were on staff once as TG, because they don't think they would like any other position. But that is fine, because that way they understand that they can't stay on staff over and over as TG and except the fact and move over for the position to be open for other first timers.. Those who want to be CD someday, work a variety of positions and have a better feel for what each position calls for and can choose someone qualified for the job when they become CD.

Eamonn - That is what this course director was told when he went to the CD training at Philmont. That TG was the most important job, therefore should not be given to the first year staffers. But, in a troop the job of TG and SPL, ASPL etc. are the jobs of our older youth. They are to take on the most important role of guiding our younger scouts to become seasoned scouts and to someday replace the mentors as the seasoned scouts.. We can guide our older scouts but must trust in their ability.. If we do not, that is when the adults stick their fingers in the pie and take on the leadership responsibilities that the older scouts should be doing.. And the troop takes a tumbling dive from their. So, if Wood Badge is about emulating how we mentor and guide our youth to lead for themselves, why should we not give the most important role of TG to the First year staffer, then have the senior staffers mentor and guide them?? I think it added to the course, and gave the participants a deeper sense of how this whole mentoring and guiding process takes place. They bonded to these slightly green, just getting their feet wet first time staffer in a way I do not think they would have someone who had been in the program so long that they could do it backward, blindfolded. Their troop guides were simply "one of them"..

Hmmm.. I myself would have no trouble showing the syllabus to someone who already took the course, and wanted to see if they could get a more detailed interpretation of it. Or hook up disconnections because they missed some vital part that broke the chain of the logically flow while out on a bathroom break. I would not show it to someone who has not taken the course or is only halfway through as in T2Eagles case.. As I said it is a spoiler. And you can not get the course expierience by reading it, you have to expireince it.. So I am glad it is not to be found on the internet.

juggerwubba, I did not find an on-line syllabus, but I did find a site with the Admin manual, and information that seems it was used to train the staff of a WB course.. I can not guarentee the quality of it, or if the one who put it together "got it".. But the small things I did see looked promising that maybe he had. Maybe it will help you to understand, what the staff is suppose to understand. http://www.people.vcu.edu/~albest/woodbadge/ Actually I am glad they did not post the syllabus, it would be a spoiler to go in knowing just as much or more then your staff.. But, I don't see the harm in allowing you to see the vision that the staff should be having while imparting the course to you. I feel bad that you are not seeing the vision by just being a part of the course. Once you complete the course, see if you can find anyone who was on course, they may not have tossed their syllabus away, and may allow you to look it over.

In the thread on trying to figure out what woodbadge is all about.. Eamonn brought up the fact the old course ran with guys who staffed over and over and over never letting anyone new into the course. And that even when the new course started the old regime stayed glued to their positions. On the 3rd course when he took over he was a rebel because he came in with alot of first time staffers.. From what I am told, Currently the 21st century course is suppose to have something like 2/3 the staff be first time staffers, while the others go through a few courses being groomed to someday be the course director. Once course director you are retired from being on another staff.. Many may stay as elfs, or one staff position for them is as mentor to the current course director. In a way you can look at being on staff as furthering your education in Wood Badge. Although during Wood Badge it should be all about the participant.. The senior staff is further working to empower the junior staff during the year long staff meetings leading up to wood badge.. And they will be their for support and guidence, if you stumble (which I did) during the wood badge course. They pick you up, give you words of advise, and get you back in the game. Now I don't know about other courses but our Course normally have the junior staffers as the Troop Guides and maybe Scribe.. Scribe could though be a 2nd year position. I heard from a past course director that when they went to the Course Director class (I think in Philmont).. When he mentioned Troop Guide was a first year staffer position, they were astounded and thought us wrong for doing so. To me it is the perfect place. The position of TG is still to be a youth postion, and so if the TG is a little new and green at the position of TG, it much more corresponds to a youth as the TG.. They may make some mistakes, and need some guidence themselves to carry out their position. Not only that the TG as first years, seem to bond tightly almost like their own patrol. They have to work together doing their own patrol presentation, and working on doing a campfire and interfaith worship service.. They are in every sense of the word an extension of what the participants go through, at a more expreinced level.. Also I don't see how you can take any of the other course staff jobs. For example ASM of Troop Guides is hard as a first year staffer guiding Troop Guides who are all 2,3,4, 5th year staffers.. ASM of program when you are green to the program.. Quartermaster.. Maybe, if you run a restraunt or some other job that requires organizing inventory and running a kitchen. ASM - Physical Arangements, those guys were hopping and 5 steps ahead of everyone else to make sure everything was setup and in it's place.. Can't see it for a first year staffer who does not know the setup well (Let me tell you I have alot of respect for those who have done the job of physical arrangement..) How many Old to new time staff do you have on your wood badge courses? And where are the traditional positions you put your first time staffers? And do you think it is good to let new blood into the staff or should it be always run by the same staffers year after year?

Wow.. two whole pages and no one (in my opinion), "got it". Of course, many comments from people who have not taken the course, or are pro-old WoodBadge, and anti-new Woodbadge. First off, that I saw wrong was a pre-meeting on what was to be part of day one of the syllabus. Question: T2 Did you have this pre-meeting, and then still a 3 day weekend, then another 3 day weekend?? The full course should be 6 days long either run all together, or 2 Fri-Sat-Sunday weekends.. (This year we are also having for LDS churches 3 weekends of Fri-Sat each, but this may be chopping it up Too much, and they might not see the pattern either).. It is all a simulation of you starting out as a cubby, and arriving with no idea of what you are doing.. Blue & Gold is at lunch time, because training does not happen until after you cross over to Boy Scouts. You are now newbie just crossed over Boy Scouts, still not knowing anything.. Note the positions of your staff.. Many simulate position also held by the youth in Boy Scouts except for the SM, who is not directing much of the course. You form new patrols, but since you are new scouts a Troop Guide (youth position) is assigned to you. All though the course it is about you learning more, initially with their guidence, and little by little them stepping back and allowing your patrol to take on more and more by itself, as you form a cohesive group.. The first few days should be easy "summer camp" style camping, then later in the course it will be backpack style camping where you camp in your patrols with your own gear.. First the older scouts (Troop Guides, Scout Master etc) camp near you.. Later they when you become first class they should pack up and let you camp on your own.. Yes Kudu, even though it has been now removed from scouting as something they can do, Woodbadge shows though emulation that when the scouts are old enough and skilled enough, they should be allowed to camp on their own as patrols with no need for adult leadership..) It is to show you "How" to empower the youth to take the lead.. That even in the beginning the more skilled youth have the charge of leading they younger youth, and how they are to slowly empower the new youth of the team until they are skilled enough to do for themselves.. Between all that, there are presentations on Leadership But it should all be based on how you can learn to guide others to lead for themselves. That includes not only your adult committees, which will have a stronger lead in cub scouts, but your adults (which should be support oriented) and your youth in boy scouts and Venturing.. I would say that they did a dis-service to you making the Blue & Gold a pre-meeting. With them breaking that piece up as not part of the chain of the process, you never "got" the implication of the fact that you were new youth being guided by older youth, and have yet picked up on the fact that they are slowly empowering you to work as a patrol under your own steam, and that it is mainly other people who are representing the positions of youth within the troop that have the most impact on this phase of guidence.

Basement - I was not promoting to HAVE a council wide RT.. Those are district wide here too.. But for those of us that work at the district/council level their IS a council wide meeting called a "Planning Meeting" rather then RT.. I was promoting if they want to try virtual this would be a safer first thing to try it out in.

If they wanted a safer test pilot, I would think the first place to start would be the Council wide Programs meetings.. Or the District Committee meetings. Council wide is good. I am not saying they aren't but if people are complaining about the drive within their own district, imagine the commute of some to go to something located within the council.. The begining is a do-over of announcements that you hear at your round-table, and the break-outs are good, but could easily be done in one of those (not sure what you call it), but it is like a virtual classroom that anyone could get the floor and talk in.. It would allow those who don't come because of the travel, get to go.. Of course this is where you do rub elbows, get to know people and may get to meet the "right" people if your are angling for a specific district/council or some other BSA position. Our District meeting is ok, but it is not like they suggest. Where you are to have your group for each program meet and the DE & DC walk around to get to know how each group is doing. Rather it is in too small a room for that. And only the Chairs of the positions come and we sit around the table and hear each others reports.. The virtual could give us the ability to meet with our own groups, as more would tune in if all they were going to deal with was Training (if in the training group) or Advancment or Membership or whatever.. If those failed then it is quick to revert back. If they are successful THEN try roundtable.. I think going for RT first is very risky. If they try and fail, it will be hard to get people interested in a renewed RT that they have to drive to.. It will just be as you say history, and go the way of the Dodo..

I am surprised that there are not more along the seacoast area, Great Lakes or Large lakes. I have heard that you can have them in-land on our rinky-dink little lakes and use canoes & kayaks then plan trips for a larger body of water, but that's when it kinda gets a little fuzzy for me if it would work.. Is it the expense of maintaining a ship that is used by sea scouts? Or the fear of sea scouts damaging someones ship? Maybe it is the social class structure at play. I am told Boy Scouts is basically popular with the middle class. Yet most who have ships are from the slightly higher then middle class, if not upper class.. They may be more into the yacht clubs, that probably have stuff for the younger generation. I have no clue, we don't have any in our district, but do have a few in the council.. But I have no clue why they aren't that popular.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

WOW!!! And here I thought I was just joking!!! Well I see good & bad.. 1/2 our district does not come down from the north to go to RT, they might go to virtual. But, it is a place to learn from others then just the ones standing up in front of the group peddling their wares.. It would be better if they could do both. Hold the RT, but have a way to have those who find it a difficult drive be able to stay at home and tune in for a video replay..

Maybe it is a local thing, your District or Council has decided to do away with them. The artical is interesting.. So maybe next year we will have "virtual" round tables..?? That's not what the article says that is just my imaginative spin on their question of How can we use technology to support our roundtable leadership?..

Well PackSaddle if what you say is correct, (Which I am not doubting, just it doesn't spell out BSA bashing and Beavah says there was BSA bashing.. So you two are in disagreement there, and not having read the lititure I will not get into that debate).. Anyway if what you say is correct, then BSA should not have stepped in. All they stated was being in disagreement, but they were not labeling them in a book the scouts were to read as being biggoted and narrow-minded. And you are right BSA did their own PR damage by not ingoring a differing viewpoint.. Wow !!! Wonder why they haven't shut down this forum yet. We disagree with their viewpoint all the time. And we do go into BSA bashing from time to time. If all BSA did was sponser groups in 100% agreement with them, BSA might as well shut their doors.. Between those that don't like the uniform, don't like the new lititure, Don't like required Training, don't like BSA soccar, don't like Mazzuca etc. etc. etc. No one will ever agree 100% to a program, unless they are the founder and run it as a dictatorship. You just look at the whole of a program, and figure out if the pros out weigh the cons, to figure out to join or not.. If you join you have every right to be a voice for change in issues you find important, regardless of if you voice is strong enough to bring about the change or not. It's a democratic right of being a member..

Shame on you Packsaddle, your hints of a juicy story made me go off to read and get educated.. There are others but this is the site I read. http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/uua-re.html. UUA sounds like a great group of people, and shame on BSA for sticking their nose into their religious beliefs and teachings to scouts. Of course it would be interesting to get ahold of the side pamphlets that use to be in the program booklets.. Was it just getting their "BSA banned" beliefs out about equality for all including homosexuals and others.. Or was it doing so while bashing BSA policy.. If it has BSA bashing that may be more what BSA is upset about then the promotion to treat all people fairly.