moosetracker

I am not bent out of shape.. Nor what do I think what I said should be something to upset you.. I would have guessed that you would not find the young man who was out with a new girl every night as a good moral example.. Not sure how you would feel about the one in long lasting relationships that don't work out.. I too agree that if either man was in a loose sexual lifestyle, especially if it was known to the boys, neither would be good role models.. I would not condemn either for respectful long lasting relationships while not married.. But, that might be where you and your units opinion may differ.. Fine by me as long as it was equally expected of each.. As I stated.. If the homosexuals is loose and wild, then you could say that they are not morally straight.. But, neither is a heterosexual with the same lifestyle choices.. They both should lead morally straight lives.. All I figured our difference was is in agreeing if homosexuality is a moral choice or not.. But, I guess not, as you stated that you are not in the camp those toting the moral choice opinion.. You are in the camp where it is a genetic condition.. So I guess on that, there is no difference of opinion at all.. Except that you wouldn't allow a person with a genetic condition of homosexuality into BSA who is in a steady relationship with a life-long partner.. Because ??? I don't want to put words in your mouth.. so I am just guessing here.. ??? Because you don't think there are any in the world who are in a respectful monogomous relationship, even if now they have married the person ???

BS-87 If the homosexual person chooses a wild sexual lifestyle then that action may be considered as not morally straight (not the homosexuality, but the lifestyle decision). but a heterosexual person should be held to equal accountability.. So if you have a young ASM who has a respectful relationship with one woman over a period of time, but it breaks up.. And he finds another young women to have a new respectful relationship with.. Would you throw him out for not staying true to the first women?.. So should be the treatment of a homosexuals lifestyle.. If a young heterosexual ASM is dating a different woman each night and never settles down in a relationship, would you throw him out? The homosexual with a wild sexual lifestyle of meetings in known parks or outhouses, or picking up guys at gay bars would be considered not morally straight.. But so would heterosexuals who try out for the mile high club or have flings in elevators, or go out nightly to bars to pick up some chic.. Statically the homosexual has had a higher percent of casual arrangements.. This may not ever equal out to the percentage of heterosexuals with a monogamous relationship, but it has been rapidly improving over recent years. The reason being is that the homosexual is no longer having to hide in shame, and accept a label of being immoral simply because of the homosexual feelings. They can find support inside and outside the gay community that will tell him he is a worthwhile person, and is not already damned, and can lead and successful and moral life even being a homosexual. As more of society accepts the homosexuals, more families are able to accept their homosexual child and embrace them for who they are.. Before homosexuals felt already damned and immoral and without any support centers.. So if they could no longer respect themselves, had no reason to live clean and moral lives.. In for the penny, in for the pound.. Now with society starting to accept them for who they are, they have the ability not to hide in shame, the ability to have a support group that can tell them they are worthy for who they are. They are able to love & respect themselves and thus are able to love and respect another person and find true love. Will it ever be that the percentage of homosexuals will settle into marriage or life-partner or at least long-lasting relationships as heterosexuals? I dont know if it will totally even out, as they do not have the procreation and raising of children as an incentive.. But the upswing of more and more homosexuals settling down to monogamous relationship does prove condemning them as sinners played a big part in a self-fulfilling prophesy. Same as the African-American, they were seen as not an intelligent race. About 50 years back you could point to proof of it.. Those would be the ones who were intelligent but hid it, for self-preservation, and the ones that didnt try because an education would get them nowhere, and the ones who had to leave any hope of an education behind them because they had to go out and work at an early age.. Once we started to treat them with respect and as our equals, they became intellectually our equals. As for effeminate behaviors, usually these traits are seen early on in the life of a boy who will tend to have them. I have seen some grown men within a heterosexual marriage that you would say had them (closet case?? Maybe?? Dont know).. But, if he can still command the respect and admiration of the boys (which I have seen happen).. Then rest assured they will emulate the traits the admire about him, not the whole package.. Again studies show that children can be raised by homosexual parents. Even though they can respect and admire and accept the parents for who they are, it does not increase the percentage of homosexuals within this group of children, most times parents will have a much greater influence on a childs life then a Scout Master, unless there are problems in the home. So if a homosexual parent(s) doesn't turn the child, the homosexual Scout adult leader will not either.

TwoCub - Our district committee, optimally we would prefer an active committee member, or an ASM of a troop that overflows with ASMs to be the person of the unit to help out with district, or the ones retiring from unit service.. We prefer our CM/SM & CC's to not spread themselves too thin.. But, when suggested this was our goal, you could feel that it was taken by the SM/CC on our board as a slap in the face, rather then a wish they have some family time, and do not burn out on this scouting thing.. So it is not pushed.. Either way, be it SM/CM, active committee member our us retired from the unit.. The district committee is still just a bunch of volunteers, spread too thin and looking for help.. The paid Exec, really isn't a part of the District committee, but a part of the Key 3 that channel what the DC does.. I know when my husband had nothing to do in a troop, his thought was to go to district committee and help there.. The Unit would have nothing of it.. "We, will find you something to do!!, Don't go to District Committee!!!" "Why?? Why is their an us .vs. them? It would not hurt for a unit with an abundance of adult volunteers to try to channel them to the District to help with providing a good program for their scouts at that level.. Now in Basement's case, I understand the us .vs. them mentality.. The District is creating it.. But for normal reasonable Districts I do not.. You are only hurting your own program, by not channeling the over abundance of help where it could be useful.. As for my training.. I will admit some mixed feelings.. Recently I sent out a list of where training could be had at other districts, in an interest of just getting out there and getting trained.. But, I did have an occassion this Fall where I rationalized I was holding back for the good of the people in my District, but there was a little bit of feeling they were messing with my turf.. I set up for a Fall IOLS, normal course 2 days.. The Council then decided to hold a Fall IOLS at the Jamboree (which was a 1 day event).. After forbidding me to run a faster course for expirenced Scouters only.. The Jamboree was in my district and only 2 weeks after mine.. It seemed to me it would be a circus also with all the other interuptions of the traffic and crowds and what not of a normal Jamboree.. Although it would be open to all, I only saw it as a benefit for the experienced scouter.. But, then I could see it was not jelling or forming or being organized.. So I waited until I had official word that it was organized, which it never was and was canceled, 2 days after my course completed.. Had I not waited, some may have not attended my course in order to go to that course, and have been out-of-luck.. So my suspicions panned out.. But, there was some ruffled feathers about them deciding I could not run something for experienced scouters that they then (I think in the very meeting I was denied) were going to roll out for inexperienced & experienced both..).. So I am not sure my decision was totally Altruistic.. I don't begrudge my district going to other districts for training.. But when I organize an event, and have people spend alot of time organizeing for an event, I always fear a low turnout, and disappointing my trainers who have worked hard to make the training worthwhile.. I know I have a responsibility to the units in my district, but I also feel a responsibility to my trainers.. We have a Specifics training coming up.. I have good enrollment for the Boy Scouts that is still not on-line, but I worry about the enrollement for cub scouts.. We will run regardless. But, to run that requires about 5 or 6 trainers giving up their time to help.. Maybe we will get a rush enrollment this week, or alot of walk-ins.. If not, I will need to decide if this will be our last time, or if we start merging with a few neighboring districts for a combined enrollment.

Powerful - but still an opinion that it is a choice. Sex is a base human need.. The list is breathing, food, water, sex, homeostasis, excretion. You have a choice on how you form relationships over this base need. You can treat your partners as sexual conquests, with little respect. Jump from sex partner to sex partner, look for thrills by choosing to have sexual encounters in risky places, or orgies or swapping.. This is where you are not being morally straight.. Both Homosexuals and Heterosexuals have a choice to deal with their basic sexual urges by making morally straight choices, and respecting their sexual partners by forming respectful relationships. So you have a story of someone with your views having words about how it is their choice.. They are wise only if you hold the same opinion that it is a choice.. Here is a story I have told before on this forum.. A relative of mine who is now deceased was a homosexual.. During this time he married a lesbian women, at the time purely so that she would not be deported, not the most nobelist of acts.. But, they stayed close friends and slowly over time these two became like man & wife in all aspects but a sexual relationsip. They became inseparable and were seen more with each other than their sexual partners. When my relative became sick with the aids virus, it was his wife who tended to him to the bitter end.. During this time, the wife had a conversation with my sister saying similar thing as the homosexual in your story.. With the addition of the fact that She and her husband loved each other totally in everything but sexually.. She wished with all her heart that they could have been a normal couple.. So here is an example of two homosexuals that didnt just make a series of micro-decisions, but took huge strides towards a normal heterosexual relationship.. Yet the heterosexual relationship never formed.. By the way, how moral is a child born with both female and male organs? I knew of one whose parents waited to have the until the child could choose their sexual orientations before the child went through surgery. Most choose for their child early on, and some have chosen wrong. Pedophiles are more like rapists. It is not the same. A lot of times you find a pedophile has a past history that formed the issue, either they were victims of other Pedophiles, or they had abusive childhoods.. A pedophile feeds on control and power over their victims.. This is not the case with homosexuals, they do not form their sexual preference due to abusive childhoods, and can form respectful and loving relationships.. As long as they contine or relearn to respect and love themselves even though they are homosexual. Relationships that I would define as Morally Straight..

Yes.. But twoCubDad.. "They" are "You" the district is made up of one paid employee, and all else are volunteers of the district.. Some are people who have retired from their units.. But, many, many are SM, CM, and other members that are actively volunteering in a unit or units..

skeptic - I could live with allowing the CO to make the choice.. And if that happened all us PCers would be silenced.. Problem is, that is currently not the choice. Yeah, creating a new youth scout program, while scouting as a whole is on a decline due not only to BSAs exclusionary practices, but due to the electronic age where more & more children dont know how to play outside.. And the heavy beauracracy of rules and policies to protect against everyone suing at the drop of a hat.. Lets face it BP was successful because he started up at the perfect time. So we like the program all but the discriminatory practices enough to ride the program with you guys on its downward cycle. But, unfortunately BSA did not see to discriminate against anyone who disagreed with their policies, and promotes democracy.. So, we are free to stay in the program.. Disagree with what we choose to and are free to vocalize our disagreements.. Besides it is fun to take our fire stick out of the fire and poke our stick at the homophobics and watch them squirm.. eeek.. We fear homos camping with our children!!!.. eeek.. Their homo traits might rub off and infect our children !!! eeek.. .. They are sinners, because my church has said they are !!! We need to be able to judge and condemn sinners so that we know we are superior and holier-then-thou .. Oh, yes.. But even though these are our reasons, we truly respect homosexuals Thing is you are wrong, if allowed to have an adult leader who was a homosexual in our troop, I would expect them to be no more visual then a heterosexual.. Which means I may have met the partner a few times, I might have seen some handholding or a look.. Both may even be involved in the troop.. But I would not expect them to get up on a podium and give speeches about the lifestyle, or see blatant hot passionate public displays.. If either homo or hetero did that they should be out.. Yeah, I would have no problem with my son going camping with a homosexual adult leader.. I would trust them. Because I dont fear them being pedophiles, or that their homosexual lifestyle will rub off.. We were in a troop for a while with a very scary looking Goth scout.. Long black hair with streaks of colors.. I cant remember all else but definitely did scare off some parents from joining with their kid.. We joined and found him to be a very nice, friendly guy.. Son adored and idolized him (as many scouts of the troop did), but did not grow up to be Goth, but I wonder if style of the big hat and long trench coat (though son chose brown not black) was from emulating the scout..

Here is where I am confused.. What is Webelos Woods? We had something long ago when son was a cub where the Webs got a more glorified Summer camp program to keep them interested & retained.. I assumed this to be Webelos Woods.. If so then it is a Summer camp program, which does not have the 1:1 ratio.. The 1:4 of the other council is more in line.. As I stated ours for cub camp is 1:5 Also Basement stated they did this to keep their pack from attending.. Was it a rule just for his pack, or was this what they asked of all the Packs in the council? If all the Packs in the council it is an odd request for Summer camp, and I can see few attending.. If it is Webs den camping then it is slightly stricker then National but not too off the wall.. If it was a rule for all Packs then Basement wasn't targeted specifically.

No.. The Belching & Burping comes from a medical condition.. And we do know how boys love to emulate burping & Belching.. Lets toss the bum out...

Well maybe you should rip your children out of the school system, as they will higher homosexual teachers. Really anything like daycare, non-BSA summer camps etc.. need to abide by the government policy of non-discrimination. Homosexuality does not rub off.. I went through the school system with a few teachers I admired, but thought might be gay.. You model what you admire, you note the oddities at first, then after a while don't even notice. Your Great story teller Burps & Farts alot..Your Scoutmaster with the well discipline group, has the bad habit of playing pocket pool..

Basement - your district/Council sounds more absurd by the minute.. FOS is a donation .. DONATION .. what you want to/feel you can offer.. It is not a fee.. They can project all they want, they can't force you to comply to a projection.. Although you might not get a pretty ribbon, something I know would devastate you.

We crossed posts.. True.. I just posted and thought about the media, but was thinking about it now, and thought that would only provoke them further.. But, yes, if they revoked your charter, it would make a great story.. Make sure you have them film a bunch of little cub scouts with sad puppy dog eyes.

Basement - they are mad, because they Blocked my Webelos den from attending our districts webelos woods by requiring a parent for each boy. Now I am confused.. They are blocking you from going outside your district to other events, but won't let you attend the events in your own district either??? Pack camping is more a one-to-one, with an occasional assignment of a boy to someone other then the family.. But Webloes woods is suppose to be Summer camp.. Our Council has a 5:1 ratio, but I guess some councils differ.. But 1:1?? I would have had them prove that this was a council rule for all Packs, then I would sit back and see how many cubbers went to their camp that summer.. Tour Plans - No one has said if there is an appeal system if your charter is revoked.. But if there is, then I would say, you keep proof that you sent in the tour Plan, and if rejected ask them for a reason why in writing, fix up anything that is a ligitimate beef.. and file for record anything that is not.. Then go to your event.. If your charter is revoke on you not fileing your tour plans I would pull out all the documentation on the rejected tour plans you filed with nit witty excuses as to why they are rejected.. (Would be nice if you could compare notes with another Pack or two to see if they are asked to comply with the nit witty requirements, or if they are made-up requirements for your pack alone.. That is only if you know if it came to that you could appeal to a more rational committee of people..

Well then those people who fear their son camping with a homosexual had better get educated as to the difference between a pedophile and a homosexual.. A homosexual is no more a threat to your son then a heterosexual female Adult leader is. The female is interested in men also, but it doesn't mean she is chasing after the young ones, nor forcing her attentions on them unwanted.

TwoCubDad - in boys scouts the troop patrol can camp wherever.. "Pound sand".. In cubscouts, they must only camp on Council approved sites, and those sites need certain "family friendly" items like toilets and running water and I don't know what else, but there is a list.. Therefore, while the boyscout troop can camp on Uncle Joes farm.. The cub scout Pack may not unless Uncle Joe fixes up the place to meet with the list, and has someone come out to approve it. OEAE.. You are right about the other Council approval.. You would still need to play the game of asking your council to approve the site and allowing them to refuse it though.

I don't know about day trips. Overnight pack camping though says you must go with a council approved list of sites.. Now within Council, it would be hard for them to put the only approved campsites for cubbies all within your district and your district only.. But they could not approve any camping sites that are outside of the council boarders.. The only other thing I know they can do is cancel your charter for not complying.. But, I would think they would have to provide good reason for canceling it.. And I would think like other things you would have some system of appeals higher then your council, all the way to national.. Someone may know that better then I.. You camping in locations not approved by Council they may have a case. Even if your council has changed the Tour Plan back to being similar to a Tour Permit where you have to file for everything.. I doubt if it was appealed to a board higher then your council, they can make a case for using the Tour Plan to bend units to their will.. And your charter is being denied because you wont bend.. If you are following National guidelines, I don't think the council defined rules would apply.. But, that means making sure you do have a higher court to appeal to if they take that road, and being strong enough to ride the waves of your charter possibly being revoked so that you can appeal to the higher powers that be for a verdict.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

By the time Parents & Son get to Boy Scouts they should see and prepare for what is coming, and be proactive, because 1) They have enough time in the program, and enough lumps & experience to know to look at the adult leaders and gauge the possible time their son may stay in the program (but still can't judge drop outs & family movings).. 2) They can look at the incoming of possible crossovers and judge how active the parents are with the cub scout program, to guage the possiblity of what they can expect for adult Leadership. But in cub scouts you have the first year to two years of parents who: 1) Walk around without a clue, giving you the deer in the headlights look. 2) Under some misconception that these are paid Adult Leaders.. Sort of like an after school program.. 3) Only exception may be the Den Leader that was recruited who is just a befuddled, deer in headlights person who is not quite sure what hit him. 4) By year 3 they (if inclined) may start stepping up to help out.. But, they don't jump in knowing the program to the point of being able to sum up the current situation and project into the future.. 5) By the time they know the program well enough, to work the present and project the future, they are the Webloes who are moving on to Boy Scouts.. And YES !!! It is a victory.. You may not like the J2E, and they may do some improvements with there Pack that is not listed on J2E, But, to accomplish Gold when they could have been a troop in the red or defunct is an accomplishment.. To earn it they had to bring 16+ new scouts to replace the webelos who crossed over and retain those already in the program.. These are statics you don't like Basement, but you don't pull that off without offering a fun exciting program that would draw in new scout and retain current scouts.. You don't do that without putting a smile on those boys faces.. This is Crickets 2nd post, and you are trying to run a newbie forum member out with you crabbyness, rather then welcoming them, and let them get to learn from being around some very knowledgable people.. Over time they may pick up a few ideas not on J2E, that will improve their program, might even pick them up from you if you can offer it in a kind & friendly manner, rather then jumping down their throat because they don't do things your way.

Basement - not kind or Scoutlike at all !!! For all you know cricket my be the parent of a Tiger or wolf.. Even if not, most parents take a while getting use to their den before they sink their fangs into the management of the overall unit.. What is to be commended of this Pack is that the parents DID pick up the reins, and it sounds like alot of parents came forward.. This could have been the case of the whole pack folding, or 2 or 3 coming forward to be burnt out by the rest of the parents to cling like leeches and complain of the lack of service they feel entitled to.. To move from practically no leadership.. To leadership that is well enough focused to win the Gold should be applauded.. Good for you Cricket for stepping up during uncertain times.. And for the rest of the parents in you unit who stepped up and carried your unit to victory!!

It is a shame, but I would let it go.. Me, personally if I knew or found out while on rounds that it was the neighborhood of another scout, I would pack up and leave them their turf.. For all you know,these scouts may not have parents who will take them out. In which case, their turf is only the size that they can walk or bike, or only to houses of "known" people, as they are not allowed to go to a strangers house. In which case their turf may be quite small.. Also, it might be customers that they have sold to for several years, they already see them as their "clientel" so to say (I am sure that in the mind of an 8 or 10 year old, it is not quite thought that way.. But a possessive feeling still is in place.)

The good thing about the Tour plan is that there are fewer occasion when you need to write one.. So if the project is within your council, and doesn't include a water activity or rock climbing or what not, the Tour plan will not be required. 5-6 years back, my son got his Eagle advisor hot under the collar about both these forms, he met with her only a few days before the event, without tourpermit or Fundraising permit filled out or sent in.. The boy got a tongue lashing (which strangely endeared the women to him) and had a lot of running around to do to get all the forms in and approved before the event..

Momof2cubs.. It is not that it is to be hard, but that it is not cub scouts anymore.. It will take you a year to come out of cub scout mode, and only if you don't choose a troop that is running a Webs III program.. Unfortunately Parents like the advancement and the kids like the bling in Cubs.. Parents can talk the cub scout aged kid into doing what the parents want.. A Webs III Boy Scout program will also be about the Advancement and the bling, and be adult run in order to direct the advancement.. It will interest the boy until about 13, then the boy matures enough to figure out what he likes and does not like and will start to rebel adult leadership in order to assert his own self-control over his life.. Put him into a troop that is adult run to control advancement, and you will loose them around age 13 because it is not a fun program.. If the troop is truely run by the boys then advancement opportunities will be there, while they are camping or biking or hiking but the program will not center on advancement because the older boys who are in charge of the program will be looking of Adventure and Excitement, not advancement.. If you have a troop that is all about Advancement and is pushing FCFY, then guarenteed it is not a boy run troop.. Help your son choose a troop that will challenge him now, and he can grow into.. Not a troop that is fine for him at age 10 or 11 and that he will grow out of.

bnelon - the 12 months is only if you are plop camping all 12 months.. It is hard to be the patrol cook on a backpack trip.. It also means counting the trips out that the boy cooked up burnt pancakes and not fully cooked chicken.. Doesn't matter that you failed as a cook.. you were patrol cook, so you get a gold star!! And then some monthly events are not camping.. You are to have a monthly outing, so sometimes it is a day long bike trip, or day long canoe trip, or whatever.. Of course your right, units with poor program are even worse off trying to deliver the advancement.. My once great troop that has fallen on bad times can't.. Last year after complaints by parents and boys that they couldn't meet the advancement due to the lack of the troop going camping.. They set up a camping evening in the backyard of the Charter Organization and somehow justified signing off 5 scouts as being the patrol cook for that one evening meal.. Nope, bad units are bad units and forcing the expectation of advancement to first class in one year on these units does not improve their program.

Wow, I didn't know my husband's service project for Eagle was so close to it's introduction.. He got it in 1969. He is proud of the fact he earned it before the program changed, but is always looking for an eagle badge of that era, since he waited for his brother to have the EOC together, and so got the eagle badge belonging to the weaker program.. (If any of you have ideas, of where to find one it would be a great xmas gift for me to give him.) He did a fun one, he introduced inner city kids to canoeing by taking them on a river trip.. Now there is one that all the safty rule would disallow today.. But his patrol had fun doing it.. His brother came in a few years later, and the battle of making the project ridiculously hard had already begun.. He did one project (I don't know what) and it was rejected.. He did another and the same guy tried to reject his second project.. His father then stepped in.. Don't know why either, his 2nd project was to collect books to start a library on an Indian reservation. He got a company to promise to transport the books early on in the project.. They thought they would just stick them on a load already bound in that direction. They chocked when at project completion they needed to have a full tracker-Trailer that was devoted to hauling the books because he had collected so many.. I don't know what his first project was, but I do not know how anyone could look at the results of the 2nd one, that basically created a full library for the Indian Reservation and say it did not merit enough impact to the community to be consider worthy..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

The one thing I noted about the Wood Badge I recently staffed. Although we staffers were required to wear the uniform correctly.. And I remember when I took WB I had to go buy the pants, because I was told I had to have full uniform.. The uniform police where "thankfully" not out in force for the participants.. Oh, they all had the shirts, but.. the pants were optional, and their were women with their shirts untucked.. No one said "boo".. Which you can say what you want about it, but the customer is always right.. So, I think it would have been in bad taste had we had uniform police dictating to the participants.. For my district trainings, it is alway, uniform if you have them, don't worry if you don't.. We have some committee members who never needed to buy a uniform, and even some parents who are curious enough to go to training, which may lead to them volunteering to their units in the future.. I am not going to require uniform for all.. Husband told me about 6 months back that they came out with a uniform shirt for women that did not need to be tucked in.. He just recently started seeing so many women opt to have the shirt un-tucked and assumed.. Well as you guessed when I inquired about it at the Scout Shop, I found that it was not the case, all shirts should be tucked in.. It was just a personal preference.

I think as Beavah stated, the new workbook was on the right path with putting an end to those district/councils that made the proposal work the equivalent of a master thesis, and the project something that you couldn't accomplish without devoting a full year to it's implementation.. In district/councils like that something got lost in a desire to prove their scouts more elite then others because of the rigor of the Eagle project they must endure.. Unfortunately not enough attention was paid to helping an Eagle board with a fairly decent expectancy in order to weed out mediocre from a decent project, trying to explain what is the threshold that they use.. The ability is still there for the board to reject or alter a project in order to make sure the project is not a joke.. But, the question is left to the board to figure out how it defines it threshold, and one thing it cannot use is a threshold of hours.. Service, impact, and leadership are the objectives and measurements. Eagle Scout projects must be evaluated primarily on impact: the extent of benefit to the religious institution, school, or community, and on the leadership provided by the candidate. There must also be evidence of planning and development one of the primary purposes of the Eagle Scout service project is to demonstrate or hone, or to learn and develop, leadership skills. Related to this are important lessons in project management and taking responsibility for a significant accomplishment. Your project must present an opportunity for planning, development, and leadership. So.. What is to be used for a board to figure out the threshold of sufficient planning, development, impact, service, leadership? I have yet to hear any concrete ideas from any of you.. OGE said listen to the scout on what he thinks his project holds for leadership.. Fine start.. but after hearing it you must determine if the project has enough leadership by using the threshold of WHAT as your guide.. Then... In true BSA practice.. It makes conflicting statements, that cause a problem.. Back up the the Muzzuca statement.. ...Some may suggest how big your project should be, or how many hours should be spent on it, but that is entirely up to you. Service, impact, and leadership are the objectives and measurements... ...Others means at least two people in addition to the Scout. Helpers may be involved in Scouting or not, and of any age appropriate for the work. Councils, districts, and units shall not establish requirements for the number of people led, or their make-up, or for the time worked on a project. The most important thing here is that the Eagle Scout candidate exhibits leadership... ...In any case, be sure the project presents a challenge that requires leadership, but also something that you can do with unskilled helpers, and within a reasonable period of time... In the span of two sentences back to back, this is a conflicting statement.. Because you can not have a project that shows "Service, impact, and leadership" with a project that is too small in scope, with mommy & daddy being your other two warm bodies.. Or even something in decent scope if they plan to use only two warm bodies who are two people who have the skills. Lets say a carpentry job, using Uncle Joe & Uncle Pete who are carpenters by trade.. In these cases the board should have the right to request that other people be used, or that while Uncle Joe & Uncle Pete can be used as the scouts guides during the planning stage, that there is unskilled labor also present during the work days that are being lead & directed by the scout and not the Uncles.. Reason being the make-up of the people the scout wants to use will not demonstrate the scouts leadership abilities at all.. But, the scout (or his parents) can argue the board has no right to dictate the make-up of the people being led by the scout.. So for the parents & scouts that want to nitpick the system apart to find the loopholes and figure out ways to cheat the system.. There are going to be enough loopholes for them to dig into.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

MIB - That project you denied still wouldn't have gone through.. The project needed to be for a church, school or community.. Person only if the person's problem has become of intrest to a community.. I don't think tracking down a specific persons' family lineage would fall under any of that.. I am thinking a project benefiting a person when it is of intrest to a community would be something like a sick childhood that the local neighborhood has taken up the cause to help the child and family.. Or finding some way to help the family of a fallen police officer, since the community would rally around that also.