moosetracker

Basement, that is sad.. I suspect it was the poor execution of the Woodbadge course on your part, rather then this guys fault.. And also maybe a bad ticket counselor to boot.. The purpose of everything is not to chart a course and stick with it, even if you are hitting reefs and iceburgss.. You are suppose to do some self-evaluations and listen to those around you as to if you are on a winning path, or if it is not going well.. Then re-evaluate and change course if need be.. The VISION is the main thing and that is seeing where you envision your unit to be in 18 months.. The ticket items can be modified to get you to the vision.. The main thing is to work with (not against) your unit (youth & adults) to get you to where you want the unit to be.. Unless this guy wrote on his Vision "I see my unit with only one scout (my son).." then he is failing his vision horribly.. Doesn't matter that the tickets (the mission steps) were flawlessly executed. I have heard that in previous courses ticket items have down right failed, and if they LEARNED from it and changed course it is an A-plus.. Woodbadge is not to teach you to be a dictator.. If his ticket counsilor is forcing him to continue on a death-march, then shame on that ticket-counsilor.. A SM may let a scout fail to learn, but he wouldn't allow him to stubbornly continue until the troop failed, before he would step in and GUIDE...

Well I missed he was poking at my comment, until he elaborated because "political" to me means topics like occupy Wall Street, or The US President.. Not a BSA issue.. Didn't think 2nd paragraph was directed a BP.. But, had no clue what tied his boxers in a knot..

Only brought up not to debate, but because they are valid reasons why a Scouter can be dismissed, and that is what we were asked to list.. If they weren't then it would be out of context.. But I think BP was not commenting on that, but the first paragraph where you mentioned him by name, and told him he was confusing the issue..

ScoutMythBuster - Are we talking of you working in a District capacity, or in a unit capacity.. If unit then neither SE or DE can remove you.. In District level.. They may not themselve be able to remove you as DE.. Not sure about SE level, someone has to have the authority to remove a disruptive person, and without waiting a year to do so.. Whether it be a committee vote or the right of the District Chair, or the SE.. So somewhere in their there is some provision on who has the authority to move a District level volunteer since the COR is not the one in charge of it. Working at District level you should be providing aid to the district, not disrupting it.. If you don't agree, you just don't support it.. If you are at a unit level, then you are more able to complain and cause a mutiny against the district, even if getting other units to support the mutiny.. As a district Representitive then, one event is not so important as to cause total kaos.. There will be other events.. Do not support it.. The others who disagree should not support it.. But you as a district person should not be charging all the units of the district into battle (at least as a representative of the District).. If I remember correctly, I think you once said you took on the Training Chair position. That is my district function as well. Although I have alter a few things (added on trainings, or changed location) to accomadate others.. Once the Council calander comes out I am honor bound to keep the date posted.. It would be a slap in the face if the District Membership chair started a campaign for all the units to boycott my training date.. Regardless of how many had a conflict on the date picked.. Let me provide the training on the date on the calendar, and work to add a different training at a different time, if there is a large enough demand.

The DE should not have the right to remove a volunteer for this.. The Charter Org if they are frustrated with what they might see a an organized mutiny might.. The Council should only have the right to remove people due to crimial records of one type or another.. Period.. Otherwise it is the charter Orgs unit, and they have the right to choose their volunteers.. I would give your Charter Org Rep a jingle, and tell them the story, and get them to put the DE in their place.. Edited to add: Oh yeah they also have the right to kick out any homosexuals & atheists.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I am not sure the full details.. Just was told with everyone else at our round table that we were hurting due to not being able to send flyers in mail.. It could be a blackout on all youth recruitment.. I did some research this morning and put togeather what I thought were the brightest & best ideas from various past threads on how hold a fun recruitment night outside of school, that would draw community interest.. There was also one idea about all the youth programs comming together to put out one flyer listing all the various programs.. Someone said that their school board was open to a single combined flyer, maybe ours would be too.. And if all youth programs are blacked out, everyone is in the same boat.. I really don't know, I do know I heard there was some push back starting around December. Our DE asked my husband "Advancement Chair" to let him know of any Eagle projects for the school were being done, so he could get a toe in.. If it was a total blackout on all programs promoting, I am unsure what this would have bought him..

I remember one time the boys were going to go out with a very skillful leader to learn to build snow caves to sleep in. Temps were reported to be way low, don't remember what now, but definatly below 0 maybe even like -10 or so.. Skillful leader canceled, not only due to the cold, they would be in while building their shelter, but also because that extreme cold would have made the snow they wanted to mold into snow cave such a consistancy that they would not have molded. Sometimes freak weather patterns happen, or the weathermen get it wrong.. I also know if I was looking I would look on the internet for rain, and not bother trying to decipher the estimated wind gusts.. Don't even remember News stations verbally making a big deal out of wind.. Maybe it is somewhere on the board to read, but rarely verbalize.. Especially if the wind is only impacting this mountain and the main inner city population would barely notice.

So where did you read into anything I said that I was upset my son started the Citizen & World, or chose to table it for a while.. I just stated what happened and made no judgement.. Then all I did was show how our next troop handled in.. And that based on their policy, he would have never had taken it on as his 2nd MB he ever took, because he would have had to do citizen & community first, then Cit. & nation, then the world.. (Not due to A, B, C.. But due to the fact that a youth knowledge of the world around him grows as he matures.. First it is just family, then it is his community, then he grows to understand his country, lastly he starts to understand the world around him. Again simply a statement of how another troop handled the same situation differently.. Now troop A may have done so because the had a MBC who had the patience to work with the young'uns.. Or because they just did not regulate.. Don't know.. But both troops handled it differently.. Due to it being the SM call.. Then I have no problem with how either of them handled it... Nor did I have a problem with my sons choice to start, then table the merit badge.

Well, it is definately affecting enrollment. Our largest city in our district the one which always is where we not only the majority of ours scouts is in, but we get most our active leaders who work not just at the unit level but helps out in district is close to colapsing by lack of new scouts entering the cub scout level... Which will kill the troops in 4 to 5 years.. What is the problem? Not being able to recruit in schools.. Maybe more the results of the actions of the athiests then the homosexuals, but none the less due to our discrimination practices.. Allowing athiest would be a little more difficult. Not because I think they are immoral, but because they would need to accept that the Scout oath will not change for them, and they would need to be content with not saying part of the oath, then demanding everyone change to the oath to their belief.. And the current BSA would have to live with a part of the oath not being followed... That will be more of a difficult hill to climb. They will be attempting an out of school fun day to pull in interest, but the future look bleak, for the troops of this city and eventually for the district leadership, unless the leaders of the other towns in the district start preparing to become the dog rather then the tail of the dog.

BSA does state a relative can be the MBC.. But they also state the SM is the gatekeeper and so he has a right to deny that, (In other words SM trumps that rule).. Most will allow it if the parent is teaching a large group, rather then have the son have to work alone due to the association.. Some will allow a few, but will put a hault to it if it looks like a suspicious pattern, others will not allow it at all.. Remember the Merit Badge system is to get the boy to learn to work with different adults and increase his ability to work with other people outside of his comfort zone.. Having the scout work with only parents or relatives defeats the whole purpose. It is up to the SM to approve the assignment of an MBC, then it is up to the MBC if they want to take on the assignment.. To teach a scout the concept of ideas that need the scout to function at a high school, or to drop the standards for the scout so that he gets off with weaker work because he is incapable of understanding does no one any good, unless the scout is some gifted genius who is functioning at that level.. My son started Citizen in the World at an early age, and I think he had a gifted MBC with the patience and time to work with him.. But, about 2 visits into it, he dropped it realizing for himself it was something that was too difficult.. That was one troop that did not put a rule to it.. Later we went to a troop that had the rule that you had to do the citizenships in order.. Community first, then Nation, then World.. This gave the scout time to mature naturally before he hit Citizen & the World.. Basically the SM can organize it the way they see fit.. They may make blanket rules, or they may give the stop/go sign on each scout individually based on what they know of the merit badge, what they know of the scout and if they feel that they are ready to handle it. The second one may be more fair, but leads to more personal hurt feelings and to more explanation as to why this scout is not mature enough to handle it.. It is sometimes a conflict the SM does not want to get into so they find a relatively fair rule for everyone to follow..

sorry Sherminator - I knew you made a statement about citizenship in the other thread, but didn't see it posed as a question.. #1) I don't know if I see it quite like Pappadaddy & le Voyager.. Oh, the fact that they have for a long time teetered on that edge of being more Business then non-profit has been there for a while.. Membership to the district execs is not so much about bringing kids into the program to provide great fun programs while teaching values & citizenship, as it is to pay for the product they sell, pay for the camps they sponsor, and numbers mean revenue also in getting donations from wealthy sponsors.. While the low end of the paid employees suffer with below minimum wage (camp-staff) to low wages (DE's & camp rangers etc) as you start going up in the food chain you can get yourself a nice cushy income... But they were only always teetering.. Uncle Sam has yet to catch them and label them a business.. The product thing if trying to keep from being sued for wrongful deaths, sex molestation crimes, and other bone-headed moves on the part of Scouters and CO's while conducting functions under the BSA flag.. But I doubt they bill themselves as that to their wealthy sponsership. #2) Right now the values of BSA are coming into conflict with being a citizen as the values for being a citizen change & BSA does not.. We cannot teach our youth to discriminate the very same people that it will be unlawful for our children to grow up and discriminate against while dealing with the world at large.. Our Values are in conflict with themselves we can't teach to work well with people within all diversities, and then also discriminate.. Their own members are seeing the hypocracy in that and starting to call them on it. But I guess I would see citizenship as being better taught then values. As stated units are not so good about picking Adult Leaders with values, especially if they are in need warm bodies to fill positions to keep the unit going.. We have heard accounts of drunks that come to units totally smashed, and it is still hard to get them kicked out.. Wife beaters, adulterer, Leaders who bully the whole unit into submission ..etc.. Also religion takes a backseat unless the unit only caters to youth in their own denomination.. Units mostly leave this up to the family.. We are better (or at least more comfortable) at teaching citizenship.. 3 citizenship merit badges, having a presence for 4th of July or Veterans day, allowing the boys to vote for their own leadership and performing service projects for our communities.. #3) and #4) I cant say.. Not involved in the OA and never seen the bumper sticker, but I would fear putting it on my car.. Dont mind I am proud of my Eagle Scout.. But would not want to tell the public I am proud of the values that BSA is currently promoting until they end discrimination.. Nor do I believe in the saying.. Maybe the sticker was put out shortly after 9/11 when everyone became more united in Citizenship as Citizenship is in itself a value.. But, that is just a guess, as to my mind that would be the only thing that would have made any sense.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Eagle92 - that is then fear from ignorance.. The only reason there would be fear like that is if they believed homosexuals were the same a pedophiles.. Because other units leaders would have little influence over their sons.. They are probably currently that close to some now, and do not even know it.. So the closest scary thing I can think of is now going to a camp and finding a camp staff person who shows effeminate traits, so they would need to move their scouts to a different merit badge.. Other then that, they will have control over who their scouts use for merit badge counsilors.. If they don't have effeminate traits they will not even know who is gay and who is now.. Like life, they probably do buisness with a homosexual accountant, or waiter, or store clerk.. They just don't know who is or isn't because they are not forced to wear "the sign of the homo" on their foreheads.

Eamonn - I don't see the Catholic Church changing to support gays either.. But I don't think of the Catholic Church as so narrow minded as to protest the right of other churches or organizations to make up their own minds on the issue, and thus to break ties with sponsering any BSA Unit because BSA gave the choice of what constitutes "morally straight" in all aspects to the Charter Organization.. Most Catholic churches will be fine that they still have the option to choose for themselves to still exclude homosexuals.. A few narrow minded CO's may ditch a few of the units in protest of it.. But I think the Catholics are fine with worrying about carring about their own congregation, rather then forcing their views on the whole world.. I could be wrong, I am not Catholic, but it seems more the LDS church that likes to weld that threat, to keep BSA in line.

EamonnOf course once they become parents they might have a change of heart and the fears that people have about gay men and women molesting young boys might play into how they feel? I doubt that Eamonn, because most peoples fears are based on the unknown, and the ability for those who want to play on those fears to accentuate the negative and hide anything positive. With the changes in place they are coming out of the closet, more and more.. And now settling down to be your relatives, your neighbors, your friends, your teachers, your bosses, your business partners.... Literature, TV & movies are slowly starting to portray them in a more natural light rather than a stereotype.. With every passing day they become less of the "unknown" sector, and more of the average person.. With that less and less people buy into these type of beliefs, especially the ones that are totally false and steeped in ignorance. The genie is out of the bottle and it will be impossible to stuff it back in.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Sounds a little hen-pecked.. When a family goes down to one car, then it should become the family car.. Geeeeshhh.... So he is stuck at home, unable to drive anywhere by himself, and she wont drive him either..

Thanks both, the conversion tools look good.. Also ctbaily - I do so happen to have camtasia, maybe not the latest version, but about 2 years back version.. Surprisingly I got too, don't know how I did it, but I bought one, and I was a winner of something like the 1 millionth customer or something and one a second, so I took one to work.. I guess though I am a little leery that the screen capture will be as clear as a convert.. We converted the Woodbadge movie clips to embed in the powerpoint for that course, which is what gave me the wants to do it to other things.. Someone else had a freeware converted and did it.. All but Mr. Hollands Opus clips converted.. that did have some sort of copyrighted signature on it.. While doing that I found out they are really linked & not embeded.. And the full path, not the partial path from the powerpoint to where the video is either.. Therefore I have learned that moving it to a different laptop does mean just deleting the old link and relinking up the videos again.. But it is not to complex... I double checked, Here is what the syllbus says.. CD-ROM diskThis resource contains copies of many of the presentation materials, including images that may be incoporated into presentations as PowerPoint slides or converted into transparencies for overhead projection. Presentations are optional; they are designed to enhance rather then replace the trainer. From what I understand from our Council Training Chair.. BSA allows us the rights to copy the training items as long as we use them for their intended purpose..So you can copy other parts of the training syllabus besides the index handouts if you think something will illustrate a point...

For training, all BSA movie clips come in the annoying VOB. This makes it impossible to embed into the Training Powerpoint. Which causes you to either have to have two laptops and/or two projectors.. or loose your place in your powerpoint in order to run the clip, then come back.. I have Roxio that converts other things, but not VOB.. I have looked for a free converted, but find they instill with them either things that are monitoring me, or blasting me with advertisements, or infecting me with viruses.. If anyone else have a different method that they do powerpoint & movie clips together without embedding the two together that is clean & neat I would be interested.. Before people argue the merits of the powerpoint & movie clips.. I allow my trainers to use what they are comfortable with.. Some use the powerpoint only, some use the movie clips only, some use both, and some use neither.. They all follow the syllabus though.. My problem is just supporting them and facilitating what they need in the easiest way possible.

As you say, some places may continue to allow the BSA to meet at their place, and/or allow them to keep their money/equipment.. But since the Charter Organization owns the units it would be their choice. If they allow them to rent, then they may again have a space, but with added expense of the rent.. Which if they lost their funds & equipment would be added to their burden of not being able to meet it to stay alive.. We once had a thread on someones CO asking their units to pay rent, the unanimous opinion was that this was ludicrus as it means that they are asking themselves to pay rent to themselves, and the charter states part of their obligation to being a sponsor is to "Provide adequate and secure facilities for Scouting units to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved. "

Cambridgeship - The change to not having a chartering organization would be a LARGE change (at least in my opinion).. Question #1 : did England start with chartering orgs, and then remove them? How did you do that and find a place for all the dislocated units to meet?.. What happened when the charter orgs kept all the equipment & finances and the units were dumped on the street penniless? Question #2 : How does your Scouting organization deal with being sued for boneheaded moves their units make that happen because they don't have a paid executive close enough to monitor their actions? Not that it has isolated the Scouting movement from all law suits, but most currently can not find fault with Scouting unless they can attribute it to training. Which is why there is currently a big push for mandated training.. BSA is trying to bill themselves as selling a product to the charter org. and that they have the responsibility to monitor it.. Some units already run around unchecked, because their CO's don't realize that by accepting to sponsor them, they also have a responsibility to them.. Which will continue to be a problem for BSA until they mandate that COR's must get COR training.. But, really the chartered Org. is to my mind a reason that we have a legitimate reason to demand change on their demand to end discrimination.. To protect themselves against lawsuits they are trying to portray themselves as selling a product, to which the CO is responsible to monitor.. Yet in trying to keep homosexuals out (and atheists too).. Their argument is that they are a private organization.. To my way of thinking they are now wanting their cake while eating it too.. The further they step towards being a private organization that is simply selling a product to a charter org to insulate themselves against being sued the harder it is for them to continue to demand that all units must discriminate against certain groups of people.. Because of the charter which means the units follows the BSA policy, there is a little more tie to following the policy then there is for someone who purchases a murder mystery game from a party store.. But, it is becoming a very real argument that it should not be their right to demand that every charter follow the definition of morally straight the way that the LDS & catholic church define it.. Because they do not just charter the LDS church. Rather the charter organization should have the right to define for themselves what morally straight means to them.. Personally I can see LDS might drop the BSA charter if it becomes the right of the charter org. to define what morally straight means to them.. They are the ones who threaten to leave in order to force the BSA to cater to their conservative views.. But, I dont see the Catholic church as a organization in full dropping the BSA if they have the right to continue to define morally straight as heterosexual only.. I can see some individual units from the catholic church dropping out, if their main leadership was ultra conservative, and they want to protest the change.. After that I see individual people either dropping or shifting to charters who sponsor their viewpoint.. Then I see new charters being formed.. From schools who have dropped chartering a BSA group, and churches and other organizations that are not ultra conservative in view .. A slower pick-up of new charters then it will be of the ones who drop out with a thunk.. But, they will come.. It will also be easier to recruit new scouts, when the schools stop fighting allowing us to recruit through them.. Give it time, the fact the BSA wants to shift the responsibility of the units to the Charter Organization to protect themselves from being sued, will open up their rights to protest the forced discrimination and the ability to force them to accept what they (or their wealthy conservative sponsors that are leading them around on a leash) interpret morally straight means..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Well, a scoutmaster may want the scout to wait to do a difficult merit badge until he is old enough to understand example a 10 or 11 year old may not be old enough to really understand Citizen & the World, or Environmental Science.. We had a Scout master who would only allow a scout to have up to 10 meritbadges he was actively working on at the time.. Not denying a merit badge, but still regualiting (or being the gatekeeper) is that a SM may assign a specific MBC, or at least deny a parent from being the MBC the scout can work with..

deleted.. Misread something.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Missed the Nazi reference.. Had to skim over page 4 for it.. Stange it came up at that time, as that fagment of the discussion was coming to a conclusion.. Eamonn always has very well thought out, reflective post that show his inner wheels are turning as he listens to others and come to an understanding of his own veiwpoints.. As always Eamonn well stated.

Thanks for sharing.. Some nifty balloon hats too!!

T2- I suspect that was said tongue in cheek.. But got to respond.. Woodbadge is a TRAINING course... Not a campout.. Though I do agree the movie time could be put to better use..

Ok.. I will accept that as a reasonable explanation, and will respect that.. I will agree to disagree, that it is a fair reason to discriminate.. But, I do think that it is an intelligent argument.. There are still people who will drop the "race" card when it has nothing to do with their race, but what they are doing.. or not doing.. It is something that can frustrate me..