moosetracker

About troops with high cost trips monthly. Some troops have found a super niche fundraiser and money rolls in for a days worth of work. Some have the scouts working fundraiser after fundraiser.. ick.. Others expect Moms & Dads with deep pockets.. I do envy the ones with the niche fundraisers.. The others I don't envy at all.

Here! Here!.. I agree.. Also since there are other complaints, why not just create our own "Occupy National" protest.. Much more fun then a flood of email protests! Let National tell us their scouters can't camp out on their lawn! Seriously, I never liked the FCFY..

Do scouts hate JLT? I always thought scouts liked JLT, disliked it when it became TLT (mostly lectures).. I am unsure what they think of the new one (forget it's acronym..) Because troops in our area stopped using it when it became TLT, some still do JLT.. To try to get troops to try the new one (which is suppose to be a combo of old JLT & the hated TLT) I think I have to reintroduce the whole concept to them about what it is and how to use it.. But, I always thought scout liked JLT.. At least around here, I get the "It was so much better when it was JLT.." speel.. PS.. did you intentenally answer wrong and still pass, or because you were in it for 10 years knew the right answers?..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

This scout is getting close to Eagle, so 16 or 17.. He just got into the troop when it was good, and had about 1 year of a good troop and was a promising scout. He has now lived in the troop as it went from boy led to Adult led with Adults that play games with advancements to push the boys through without really having to work at it.. I gave an example about a month back where the newer scouts were complaining because they couldn't get sign-offs on things requiring you be camping.. (The troop rarely camps or does much but set up events, and cancel them for lack of planning).. Anyway, the troop set up camp in the CO's backyard, and signed all the new scouts off on things only one scout should have been signed off on.. example "the Patrol Cook".. One meal, 5 scouts got signed off for that requirement. Site selection.. All 5 got signed off in one night.. etc.. Sadly the scout has become the product of the troops program..

chaoman45 - you are correct approval should come BEFORE.. I hesitate because when we talked last we discussed this, and I gave an example as teaching knots, with the rope for scouts to have hands on, maybe a passout showing different angles of the knot being tied, maybe a knot board for display.. Question will be did this knot teaching come after that talk. When we had the talk he didn't say "Arrghhh.. I just did something like that last week".. I have had scouts in the past take an example I gave them for family Life for a home project they could do, the follow through with my example without my approval thinking it was a form of approval by me because I offered it an an acceptable project.. Due to mis-communication I accepted the project even though they did not get the approval. Since that time I stress 3 or 4 times to "get approval by me".. quick phone call is all they need to do.. To be honest though I have been a communication MBC for a while I usually get 1 or 2 things to finish up with them after summer camp.. Not 5 or 6 things.. So this is the first time this "get approval" on this requirement has tripped me (or the scout) up.. As stated I have more a tendency to say "NO" here, because I would have liked to have been present when he did the training, to see for myself if it was done well.. But that is not in the requirements that I be present, so that is adding to the requirement.. Denying because he didn't get approval first is my ace in the hole. But, if I find on talking to him, it was because he took my example as approval to do this training.. I will really feel like a hard-a__ because it would not be my true reason.. My true reason would be the scouts from this troop need more opportunity to be trainers and leaders since the units program doesn't do that, and I would like to see him do it, because again these scouts don't get much practice at it, so I have no clue if he really knows how to do a good training, and is good at communication.

You are correct that the teaching must be with visual or teaching aids.. The one he mentions as being recent, I thought stated he had teaching aids.. But just now re-reading it, it says I did prepare a couple of assistants so I was reading into it "teaching assistance" as in non-people tools, but he could mean a couple other scouts were helping with the teaching.. I would imagine he had rope for hands on, but if there were others involved was it then really him in the lead, or all 3 on equal ground as teachers and he is kindof slanting the view.

This goes hand in hand with other conversations about advancement, But I really didn't see where to spin it off from. I have agreed to be a MBC for a scout to finish up the Communication MB that he started at camp. I have got 2 emails from him where I feel he is angling to make the MB easier. The first request I think I dealt with fine. It will probably make those who are stricter with definining advancement happy and those who like making it the easiest on the scout unhappy. The second one I would also like to say "No" to but have some reservations and doubts.. First one : I'm not sure when the next Court of Honor is, but I can work on planning it out for requirement 8. I was also wondering if the program for the CoH could be considered a brochure for requirement 7c. This one I told him was double dipping to do one thing and count one item for 2 seprate requirements.. So "NO".. Second one : I do have a question about number 6. I know for a fact that I have taught the younger members of the troop various skills at the meetings over the years, and I wonder if that can be counted as requirement 6. If so, do I need to get the scoutmaster to sign off on it? If so, it shouldn't be a problem, because I recently taught lashings to the troop at a meeting. I did prepare a couple of assistants, carried out my plan, and made sure that they had learned what I taught them. OK.. I admit that some of my reservations for this is the fact I know this troop has gone downhill, it is so adult lead these scouts have little opportunity to teach or lead anything.. If it was just "teaching various skills over the years", then I would say "No", but the "recently taught lashings to the troop at a meeting." does give me pause.. He started the MB at summer camp.. He asked me to finish up the MB 2 weeks ago. The MB requirement does state "With your counselors approval.." So I guess I have the right to deny, on those grounds. We emailed about some ideas but he never came up with a plan and discussed it with me, so I never gave approval.. I feel more at ease about saying No if the teaching was before I became his MBC even if it was since he started the MB at camp.. But, just not sure if my opinion of what he is learning in this sorry excuse for a troop has me riding too hard of a line to say "No" if the teaching took place since our first talk where we did discuss the requirement and during that I gave some examples, and something about knot tieing was an example used.. Personnally I would have liked to have notice when he was going to do the teaching, and if possible have attended and been able to see if the scouts were learning. But, I know it is not a requirement that I be in attendence, only that I have given my approval..

We hopped troops twice with our son. It was not that the grass was greener, we chose to leave, then figured out where to jump to. More about, what was wrong where we were, not how great someone elses program was. I find more a lot of scouts who should move, but do not.. Fear of not fitting into a new group mostly. So they stay, and complain and complain, and some are even reduced to tears over how much of a mess their troop is in, and how no matter what they try to do to fix it, they are sabbatoged by the adults.. We lost crossovers to other troops when we were in bad troops and ready to move ourselves.. Smart move on the parents/kids part. The easiest time to steer a kid away from a bad troop is before he grows roots. From what I saw the boys ended up in two different troops that were boy lead, we ended up in a third that was boy led (at least while my son was a youth, it is not adult run and a poor program).. From what I can tell they still get the crossovers from adjacent Pack though, but I am removed from it, so there may be a few intellegent Boys/Parents who have choosen a different place.. There have been a few that have moved to good troops after joining though.. Nope, From what I see the boy run troops get the kids if not right away, then eventually.. When we were in a good boy run troop, we grew fast also, not from just the crossovers, but from boys who moved from poor troops to join a good boy-run troop. The bad troops hang on for dear life with kids who hate being there, but normally are there with the desire to reach Eagle and then get out, but not the courage to go someplace where they can enjoy the Scouting experience.

83Eagle - I thought the fastest growing was Soccor Scouts?.. Honestly Venturing isn't growing at all where I am, but if it is the fastest growing in other areas of the country, that is probably because it is new so to grow from 0 crews to 10 crews to 100 crews on through the years make them the fastest growing.. Which is why Soccor Scouting now being the newest has probably replaced them as the fastest growing. From what I am told Cub Scouts still has the majority of units and kids enrolled, our district has more Troops then packs.. But the Packs still beat them in number of kids.. We have maybe 2 good Venture Crews in our district, the other 4 are at deaths' doors.. But it is true, they don't work on Advancement. My husband being Adv. Chair is tasked to track the Districts Advancement. After two years of tracking and having no crew Advancement we just figured they did not send their paper work to us.. Last month we got our first Crew Advancement we were so startled we didn't know what to do with it..

I was in the group that MIB was talking about.. My take on it. 1) it wasn't an official gathering of RT, not a Before breakout announcement time, or during a breakout session.. Just a group of people with no need to go to a RT, gathered to talk about anything and everything to while away the time. Started with one person telling me I have to change the way I present YPT to tell people to call 911 first, not the DE due to the incident.. (Since 99.8% do it on-line, I don't really have a say in how YPT is taught.) 2) A few guys made comments close to MIB's on this forum about beating the guy up, others agreed with the thoughts.. On to other topics.. 3) My impression of the whole thing? a) Men may mature, but there is still a secret desire in them to be super heroes.. b) I could no more see the guys who made the comments truely beating the guy up, if in that situation. Knowing the guys there first reaction would be to help the kid, and get him away.. If that involved a brief struggle to do so, they would do that. But, truely they would take the kid and run, not leave the kid shivering in the corner while they spent 5 or 10 minutes pummeling the molester to within an inch of his life.. Conclusion.. Alot of bravado, all the guys made it known that they would not be best buddies of a child molester, and would not feel sorry for him if he met up with some unforgiving prison mates.. But, if any of them truely were placed in those circumstances, I trust that each and everyone of them would put the child first, their need to get themselves and the child to safety second, not the need for revenge. Then I know they would all report it.. And really that is all these men really wanted anyone to take away from all their Bravado.. That if they are in a similar situation they would act. Period..

Beav - I believe what Trainer Lady is saying is that if he gets elected to a position 15 minutes before he has his BOR, then the whole 6 months of doing that position does not count for his POR at FirstClass working to Star Rank.. Which is odd, because it is on the same night.. Even wrong would be if they held elections next week and he got a position, then the following week he had a BOR.. By rights he should get credit for the 6 months minus the one week that he held the job while at first class status.. Also if he was in a position for 6 months 3 of them at first and 3 of them at Star, then 3 should count for first class (if needed) and the other 3 count at Star rank working toward his Life.. But if I am correct with how this troop operates, the POR will not be credited at either rank, because it was not performed 100% in one rank or the other..

Are the POR elections being held this coming week? Or do you have some troop policy that you can't have a POR if you don't pass an SMC on the first go round? It would not be fair if he does miss the POR elections, over timing and very unfair if they have some policy over flunking an SMC. I can see frustration with that. But, your son can point out that the book does state that POR's can be made up by the SM and does not need to be a "titled" one from the handbook until he is working the POR during his Life Rank.. So your son could take the inititive and ask if he could coordinate something, maybe something normally done by the Adults in this Adult-led troop.. (I think that is still in the lastest Handbook printing). I know I was part of some brainstorming for positions when our troop got too big to give everyone in need a titled position. Are you out in the country? Because normally there are different troops within a 5 to 10 mile radius of a given point on a map if in a larger town/city.. We live in the country, and did travel 30 minutes to our troop. But, we had a choice of about 4 closer, and maybe 10 for the 30 minute travel time we elected to do in order to have our son in a good troop (we hit about 4 larger towns/cities in different directions of our radius..)

TrainerLady - Just have a question about what you are frustrated over.. You seem to be upset that the troop your in are not requiring profiency before the sign-off, or that they are requiring it at the SM conference? Seems you agree your son is not profient because the troop does not offer opportunity to become so, but are very upset you son must wait a week to get his rank, when he should have gotten it tonight. To be honest in both areas I think your troop is doing things wrong, but it is not the end of the world that your son needs to wait a week for a rank that by your admission he hasn't really earned. SMC maybe is not suppose to be an interegation, but they do have the right to talk to the scout and figure out if they think the scout is ready to advance or not. Preferably this is more by knowing the scout and his ability in the field, not be drilling him on things they did not really give him the opportunity to learn.. But I could see some testing if the SM do allow the PL and older boys to teach and sign off ranks. This may be the only way they know that the older boys are doing well with their resposibilities or not. Anyway the parts of the first class badge are not what I would call something necessary to know because it is knowledge that will save his life or his Patrol mates.. Anyway, I know that you are mad, but I am unsure what you are mad at. That your son isn't learning, or that he did not receive instant gratification.. You and your son need to figure out what it is that you want, if what you want means major changes to the troop you are in, then you need to recognize that in your position in the troop, that would be hard to make happen.. You can try a few things, but normally if you are not one of the Key 3, your only solution is to find a troop with ideas similar to your own.. Really that is teaching your son some true life skills. You are in control of your life by the choices that you make, but unless you are in a position of power, you have little control over forcing major change on a group of people who see what they do as "buisness as usual.".. Your son when he grows up can choose a career where he is self employeed. Or will work for someone, and if he does not like their buisness policies will need to look for someone else to work for.. Your son can pick his friends, and other social groups, he can choose his girlfriends and his wife.. But he can not choose them and then mold every one of them into what he wants them to be..

I can at least understand why a unit may chose to pass on the young adult in favor of someone else. I have seen committees pass over a young person in favor of someone else for a specific position. I have never seen or heard of a committee so filled with adult leaders that they have the luxury to pick and choose one person over another to fill the committee positions.. Normally all are welcome to register, unless you have a personal problem with a person. I guess there may be some. Those like Kudu who like the least amount of adults around they can possibly get away with, and hope for adults who are happy just being a name on a piece of paper. But most committees who reject are not rejecting because they chose one leader over another for their limited positions, with many people waiting and hoping to be elected into the inner circle sometime in the future. They reject because they find fault with the person themselves.

Well being "Mom" of the other "Moose" (In fact that is where my username stems from tracking down the Moose when he was younger.) Yes.. son does have some more maturing to do.. But, is surprisingly mature in other ways.. I dont know about the rushing in where fools go, having always been a cautious kid.. But, sometimes does need talking to about what he says or how he says it.. Would he really beat the guy up? I have not seen him beat anyone up, but could possibly see him do a body slam of the guy up against the wall to get him away from the kid.. Then afterward talk about other things he had wished he had done.. Usually when taking on a interest to do something he will take it on whole heartedly and seriously, while ignoring other things he should be concentrating on.. Things that interested him last year he is not interested in this year.. Stubborn and opinionated But, then most of that describes me, and I am as mature as I can ever hope to be.. So is it really maturity or just genetics or learning from the parent?.. We can hope it is maturity which means there is hope for him, where at this point there is no hope for me.. Just because we can still hope that our children have room for improvement, it doesnt make them unqualified leaders.. As stated by mds3d and are more likely to be willing to correct what they are doing wrong. True for most young people (with my son, that stubborn streak may show up, especially if the correction is being suggested by a parent rather then another adult). But that is why I see his staying with Scouts right now as a positive thing. He is positively contributing to the community.. But, other adults besides his parents are still involved with positively contributing to his development.. And its a good thing for him to learn other things besides his parents bad habits.. I have welcomed young adult in projects I work on, and always see them as an asset.. I also dont see the need to guide them any more time consuming then guiding an Adult completely new to scouting.. And right up the alley of what Scouting is all about Guiding young people.. Son is correct that I am making him co-Training chair.. I was told and I am working on the idea that I am to take this position for 3 years.. Learn it in year one, Be comfortable in it in year two, and train my successor in year three.. I was originally planning on training his Fiance to be my successor, but my son is more interested in it.. So be it.. At 22 I think he will be a great Training Chair, and our DE has made a positive comment when he noticed I was starting to train him to succeed me. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Well being "Mom" of the other "Moose" (In fact that is where my username stems from tracking down the Moose when he was younger.)

double post(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Mcqueary may be an Eagle ... Huh?? Engineer your whole logic is ludicrus, and this line is no better.. You can not take one case which involves many people and pull one fact about one of the people out of it, and say it proves a whole group is untrustworthy(and a group who is not even part of that group.. 18 - 22 is not the same as 28 year olds).. Then add on to it a "may be" statement, with no proof. But even it was a fact still does not define a whole group. People are individuals and each person reacts differently when faced with a situation.. By your logic if we are going to condemn whole groups on the action of this one case. We must not get are children involved in team sports, nor allow them to go to college. Nor trust any man of any age group.. There are known cases mothers killing their children, turning a blind eye as their children were molested by their father/step-father/her boyfriend lets take all children away from their mothers. There are known cases of fathers beating their children to death and molesting them, lets take all children away from their fathers.. Kids have killed parents and siblings.. So again we must seperate these parings.. You will find a case that involves almost every age (even ten year olds playing with guns), both genders hurting or killing others.. Therefore we each should have our own padded cell and each have no contact with any other individual. After all if one person commits a crime that has any attribute similar to us, then we are equally guilty of the crime.. Whether they be similar by gender, religion, age, eye or hair color, career choice, hobbies etc. etc. on and on.. You should not have your children in scouts now. We already have past cases of sexual abuse in scouting, therefore all scouters are evil and wicked.. Yes, you should always be alert, and double check and ask questions if something seems suspicious.. But, in order to have a normal life in the world we live in, you also must judge everyone individually and learn to find a way to give trust to others until something happens that betrays that trust..

Re-read JoeBob's last post, I see nothing but jeering and heckling.. Basement has made a few snide remarks also, as have a few others. I would bet most incidents will have a boneheaded move or two, or maybe someone being over cautious, or not cautious enough.. Which only retrospect will say if they made the right decision or not.. But, you can't only learn from what was done wrong, but what was done right. So picking apart a briefing should not be all about what was done wrong.. And equally wrong is making personal comments about the people the incident happen to in a derogatory manner..

Don't know if anyone has stated it was a victory.. I see 2 viewpoints : The first ready to condemn, and filling in the blanks with supposition.. The other giving benefit of the doubt, because there is not enough facts, and accepting the fact that there are times you don't continue to wander.. No one knows if they reached that point or not, but sometimes that is a good decision to make.. Equalling surprising is the number of people on the forum ready to condemn and make snide remarks against a fellow scout on very little evidence.. Friendly and Courteous... NOT... Basically a #1 reason why National should NOT figure out detail info on these incidents and make them public.. For people who will ignore anything positive in the report and only rip it to shreads to find things that were done wrong so that you can jeer and heckle and strut around with superior attitudes of how much better they are then all that..

I see both points of view.. Don't know if it is currently but when my son went through Tenderfoot thru FirstClass, the book did stress when lost to stay put, because many a child has been lost and rescuers could not find them because they wandered and so end up in a place already totally searced.. But even then, there was the discussion about figuring out direction and getting a bearing.. And discussion about trying to be in a place easily veiwed by air if not by land, shelter buiding, first aid kit and whistle, Fire building, keeping warm, edible plants (cell phones were a luxury rather then a dime a dozen at the time).. So I guess there is lost and there is lost.. You have to make a determination how lost you are, or if you should try for a few hours on your own to find your way out before giving up. This might be a question of evaluating your situation, where did you get lost (the city park or Adirondeck Mountains) And what your skill level is for self rescue... Both are self-rescue, trying for a while to find your way out, then knowing when to call it quits.. And being able to find a visible spot to make a survival camp, and find ways to survive and get attention to help your rescuers.. Was it a few years back that a scout was lost and rescuing him became complicated because he was told not to trust strangers.. So even though he was lost, when a rescuer came close the boy would hide... GEEESSSHHHH...

Seems like councils make their own rules on this.. My son went to cub camp this summer with one other parents they had under 10 cubs, but he says out council is the 2 deep which would cover the first 10 cubs. And then 1 adult per every next 5 grouping thereafter. Soon the district is running a recruitment night at some sports facility.. Sleep over night, bring a friend (so not all the kids will be scouts).. Parents drop the kids off, council / District is providing the adult leadership.. Even I am a little surprised at this. As far as I know they will not even have a count of who is comming so may have 1:1 or 20:1 and that some kids are not even scouts is weird.. But, also although the kids may be excited about signing up after a fun night, not sure if this will feed the expectation to parents that BSA is Babysitters of America..

Most cub camps are between your two extremes.. If you are doing Pack camping or Webelos Den camping then it is closer to one parent per cubs with a few exceptions for siblings and an occasional time when another parent may accept responsibility for someone elses child, but that should be rare.. For council run events it is different years ago (when my son was a cub) 5 cubs to 1 adult.. Reading the cub camp Info now, it only states you need two adults One 21+ and one 18+ and that is it.. I find it hard to believe National has gone down in overkill strictness in something.. So someone can tell me if I am wrong. Anyway when we had the 5:1 we would get 2 adults free if we had less then 10 cubs, 3 adults free if less then 15 etc.. (free, I am sure really that the price was worked into the cubs camp fees).. I know there is something called Family camp.. That we hold on weekends between the normal week camps.. That is with cubs and family so yes I would imagine they would expect a parent with that, but then siblings and both parents are welcome too. Now BasementDweller will tell you his council asked him to have one parent per cub for camp. But I was unsure if it was just him because they don't like him, or if it was expected of every Pack.

Why the surprise? Females can't be opinionated and stubborn?.. Never hid the fact, I have referenced it a few times.. Mother of MooseTheItalianBlackSmith (or whatever very long name he gave himself).. References to my husband from time to time.. And have noted my opinion was from a female point of view from time to time.

Reason I will not have an opinion, is that I agree with others that there is not enough information to go on to have an opinion with.. I am sure in the coming months I will hear more, but then you have to question what is truth and what is rumor. IOLS is just that INTRO.. The map & compass course is enough to give the basics to people who do not have a clue.. Allow those with some knowledge to pick up a few neat tricks they didn't know.. Enough to bore the accomplished to death.. As Pchadbo states we do a decent map & compass for a 2 to 2 1/2 hour course with the assumption you are starting with the novice.. Hopefully it is enough to peak the confidence and interest in the subject so that they learn more.. I would not recommend novices to go straight from an IOLS class into the backcountry.. Who is to say this adult has taken IOLS or not anyways.. It is not mandatory around here yet.. As for the group splitting up. Not a good idea if they are not accomplished backcountry hikers. But, not unheard of. Look at some of what Kudu promotes that troops should be like... Troops might camp together (or not) and then each patrol takes off on a patrol hike on their own. Hopefully scouts with good backcountry skills, but still groups that seperate for the hike, and groups with no adult leader.. These people may have thought themselves experts and were not.. These people may have been expert enough but what was left out of the story is what would show that.. Or these people may have talked to others who gave them false information of the difficulty of the trail.. Reminds me of when I (not a great snow skier) asked someone if a ski slope was easy or hard.. Got the answer very easy. Friend and I went for it and soon found our mistake as we got to ski jumps that we just kind of tumbled down, me landing next to a huge pile of bloody snow from the last victim with skiers jumping over my head..