moosetracker

Since it sounds like you have everything complete, what is the everything else you are talking about? What is listed in the Scout Handbook Merit Badges, Project, time into position of Responsibility should be done. But if it is finishing the application, or getting signatures or getting the paperwork in to the council, I wouldn't sweat so much about that.. Congradulations on being so near completing the Eagle Rank!

Moggie - I guess I was lead to believe something different, don't remember the thread or who said it, but someone from the UK, gave me the impression that the majority of all units was in the leadership of young adult. You were looked at as kindof strange if you were an still trying to be an adult leader and were older the 25 or 30 (or somewhere around there).. Your versions makes me think that the young adults help with the units at about the same percentage as we can get den chiefs, and the units are still largely run by parents or older adults..

Varsity isn't a big thing, it was put in for LDS specifically, and though others could use it no one has an interest to do so. From what I know few LDS use it either due to not having enough boys to have a decent troop size if they split some away to have varsity. I have though seen one or two people with orange tabs and were told those were for Varsity when I asked. We get a roster of all units in our district. We have no varsity in our district. I am in the camp with the others about BS having to go up to at least 16 for the older boy leadership. Only way I see it working otherwise, is to get something like UK where the older boys from the other programs are coming back to the younger units to be Leaders.. That has not been mentioned how that works by Cambridgeskip or Moggie. But it has been mentioned in other threads that it is odd for older adults to be involved in leadership at all.. Don't know how they got that to become a health thriving concept, but if it is a healthy as mentioned in other threads, that would return the older boy mentoring in some form. Not sure if it would be healthy in the USA though, our Den Chief is nice when we get it, but rare..

It's one thing not to care to advance, but still engage in the program and support your patrol & troop in the process.. These are still fine examples of scouts. It is another to just be a bump on a log expecting everyone to wait on you hand & foot, and pass you through the system without doing anything to earn it.

The Eagle project needs volunteer labor as it cannot be done by the scout alone, or it shows no leadership.. But if the scout chooses not to use scouts for the volunteer labor, that that is exceptable. Example would be if the scouts Eagle project was for his church, and he had all his volunteer help from the members of the church.. I do think though that the SM or some other designated person from the troop or district should have the right to come and witness the workdays just to make sure the Scout is indeed the one running the project and it hasn't been taken over by the minister or someone else the group is more use to taking direction from. One of the new changes of the workbook is that the troop or Eagle board cannot tell the scout who he must use.. If the boy does only use troop labor, then our troop has never seen anything wrong with adult and youth labor. Some of our adults will though hang back and not help unless asked to, sort of testing the scout out to see if he would ask, or just assume.. If not asked, then they don't help. Maybe it's their way to payback the scout for when the scout only did what was asked of him on campouts..

Well unlike ScoutNut, I do understand the meaning of boys that are just worthy of the Eagle badge but get it anyway.. But, ScoutNut is right that it will not be yours or the ASM's problem to have to say he is a worthy canadate. That is up to the scout. I will work with him on getting his Eagle project approved by council and help him in any way I can, just like I'm doing with my other scouts. Here is where I find fault with your reasoning, and a potential that YOU will be aiding in getting an undeserving scout to Eagle.. You should be there to ensure safety and that he is the one leading the project. That is it. Let HIM work on his Eagle project workbook on his own.. Maybe a committee will allow him a dry run of his presentation for his proposed project, and give suggestions. That is all the help you should do, same with the other Life scouts.. His project should be planned, organized and paced all by the scout himself.. If you see the mother is doing the project for him, this is when you get involved to ask her to back off and remind her whose project it is.. Make sure he is running the work days, not his mother, not you. Make sure he works to get volunteers for his project. Don't make the boys in the troop feel it is mandatory they attend his project (Same with the other boys working on Eagle projects). If the other boys respect him and feel he is part of their team they will come. In fact if you think it will be an issue, check with your Eagle board on what you can say to the parent to get them to back off.. I know one of our SM's did not sign the project completion due to the mother running the program, not the scout. Like your scout there was little else in his scouting career that said he was worthy of the rank. Would have been better if he had said something during, but he did not attend the workday that ran over a one week holiday. But, got feedback from those who did, and called others of us who were at the workdays to verify what he had heard.. He held his guns admidst the parents screaming, and council people calling him to see if he would not reconsider.. He did not request the boy do a different project, but that he give 6 months to scouting where he showed scout spirit. The watering down of the Eagle project may make it harder for you to put teeth into making sure scout & not mother does the project. I think I heard that they can go to the board without your signature, if you refuse to sign it.. So, ask your board and follow through on their suggestions. If he has no ambition or interest in the program, he will peter out without finishing the project. If he does finish the project then from what you indicate, he will have to re-engage himself to accomplish that. Enough to a point that you should be able to take pride in his accomplishment with this project at least. So his workbook will not be ready in the near future. Not your problem, don't set deadlines for him for anything. When it is done, let him make his own appointment with the troop committee to present the project to them. You shouldn't be involved with overseeing his workbook or project at all. Just listen and give advice with the rest of the people at the committee, and if he doesn't listen to anyones suggestions, and makes no changes to the project before going to the District board.. Oh Well!!! During the running of the project again, not your concern to help or pace him. You can volunteer to be a workerbee on his work days, you can make sure his parents are not doing the project for him.. Now you can suggest to the scout that if they wish, they can look for an adult in the troop who is willing to be their consultant.. But, it should not be you or his parents. It should be someone that is no more then a sounding board, and (if during consultation requested by the boy, not set up by the adult) will remind him of some safety issues he forgot, or paperwork he needs to submit.. Someone who does nothing but meet with him when the boy asks for some time, but does not try to pace him. If the boy never asks anyone to be the consultant, or asks someone, but never calls or uses them.. OH well... Let the boy set his own pace, and if it is a pace of someone who has no interest, then it will show.

Well as discussed with the young Adults who look to be leaders in a town they go to college in, sometimes a complete stranger is fine for some of us.. Especially if they show that they have history with the BSA, that explains his interest to continue the relationship. But the person contacting your troop, and having a good reason to want to be in the BSA is different then just your troop sending out blank invitations to every weirdo in the state, and seeing what they pull in.

Is this a special type of Service project that you get special recognition for over your normal type service project.. Or do you mean a requirement in the Emerg. Prep. Merit Badge book?? If you think of all the people who come out to help people who have been flooded out of their homes, ruined by Earthquakes, fires etc.. Those volunteers are participating in an emergency service project.. With Scouts you would not want them in harms way, so they would more likely be of help at the emergancy shelters or something like that. But I know when power goes down for large areas and many might be out of power for a week or more (especially during winter weather).. They will sometimes label that a state of emergancy too.. Still to be a service project you would need to help more then your own family.

True, but I would not advise that either.. All you are advertising is a youth organization filled with youth that their parents don't take an interest in.. Ripe picking for child molestors.. If in need due to uncaring parents, it is best to have the active adult leaders quietly ask around at their work (if local), own churches, or other social outlets to people they may feel interested, or ask the scouts themselves if they have older brothers/Sisters, Uncles/Aunts or other relatives who may have an interest..

sounds like a troop in desperate need. Shame on the parents of those scouts in that troop.. I know not everyone has a yen for the great outdoors. But, to have so little interest in their sons life or youth program(s) that they can't even help to form the committee with a requirement of a once a month meeting.. They rather the program be organized by unknown outsiders, then give up one hour a month of their time. This is the complete opposite of "Stranger Danger" where the troop will not allow anyone from the outside community in, even if they show a scouting background and a reason why they would like to stay involved. Rather an "anyone will do" in order to give me a free babysitter, and freedom from my responsibility as a parent. At least they did indicate they were subject to approval. But, still a good chance this advertising could rustle up a molester or two that have yet to be caught, and know how to fit into the community around youth.

Well although I have nothing against allowing atheists in, I do have something against them forcing the groups to change their oaths.. In order for them to join then both groups would need to find a suitable compromise.. Compromise is not allowing atheists to have it all their own way.. Personally I am fine with the pledge of Allegence keeping "under God" and the athiests just not saying that piece and not being considered disrespectful. So weather the pledge/oath is said once with the the athiests silent for a section, or said twice to accomidate both parties.. Definately it should not be changed to only accomidate only one party. One of the reasons I feel the battle on allowing homosexuals in will be won before that of the athiests.. The homosexuals will have no need to change the program.. The athiests would have to accept that the program will not be changed radically in order to accomidate them. They would have to accept compromise and co-existing.. And there will be more of a fear that they will not, simply because of the fact they could not leave well enough alone when accepted into other groups.

Well Scoutnut, you may have crossed posts with Exibar, but if the scout's POR is as PL you would expect him to do things without waiting to be told in order to lead his patrol. Exibar, do you always blindside him with asking for him to teach a skill or does he know what is expected for him to teach at a before hand from the PLC meeting, or a discussion that happens before the troop meeting event.. Make sure you give him the time to practice at home to refresh a skill. Now if you forewarn him and he takes no self pride in being prepared, then you can kind of shake your head at his lack or motivation.. We joined BS just around the time that training was trying to retrain troops that a BOR was NOT to retest, but to be more a warm/fuzzy experience. One of the arguements from the SM's wanting to retest was they wanted to prepare them for the Eagle BOR, and the response from the trainers, was that the warm/fuzzy BOR's were preparing them for the Eagle BOR, because that is what Eagle BOR's were like.. He should be able to talk about his Eagle project confidently, and about himself.. My husband & son sit on the Eagle board, they have scouts who stand out and scouts they wince over their pain & discomfort, but normally the Board is passed unless the Scout decides this is the time to declare themselves a athiest, or a homosexual, or they change the Eagle project that was approved by the Board to be something else that does not meet an acceptable completion of the project as was stated by the workbook.. (ex. one scout was doing something that was suppose to be published in paper to the public, he changed it to a website that was not accessible to the public.. He was denied until the project was in someway accessable to the public. (a benefit to the community)..

If the eagle board is done correctly they may expect him to be able to recite the scout oath/law, but the board is not about retesting on tenderfoot - First Class skills. They will ask about the project and expect him to be able to describe the planning in detail for the pre-approval board, and talk about it's follow-through.. They will want the scout to talk in general about his scouting experience (things like describe best/worst merit badge or best/worst scouting event) and then discuss his plans for his future in a way that shows a well rounded individual who is becoming wise and mature due in part to his scouting background. There are boards that may not follow the recommended method, but this is how they are suppose to go. Unfortunately once signed off, you can not hold him back for what he doesn't know, or the charactor building he should have gotten, but did not.. And the Eagle project the way the changed it will give you no help they just watered it down to the point that a webeloes cub could do a project that is acceptable. No time limits, only need to lead two people.. The board can deny based on the project not showing enough depth or leadership, but there are absolutely no guides on what that means, just what they can not base it on. Supposibly there is suppose to be more responsibility on the troop itself to assure quality, but nothing guides that statement either. How is the rest of the troop? You might not be able to correct the poor program this scout got, but are the rest of the scouts in as poor a condition? Can you correct there program?

You may be right.. All I envisioned was him organizing the timeline of the COH for those who would play a part in it.. Then publishing same timeline (plus picture) to pass out as a brochure. Problem solved (sort of).. SM redirected him into doing a campfire... Although MB states "get PLC approval", in this troop it is more "get SM approval".. SM likes running and organizing & being MC of this event.. If it wasn't the SM, I wonder if this would be a problem in other troops where the SPL would only get the opportunity to be MC once or twice while in office, they may also not be too pleased to hand it to another scout.. Then again they may be pleased as punch to get out of that responsibility. Therefore if now he would like to do a pamplet/bulliton for the SM's COH, he is free to do that.. It is no longer double dipping. But, I doubt it, the SM can not plan or organize, so he more organizes 1/2 hour before or wings it.. A little difficult for someone to pre-organize a pamplet.. There are alot of different things a scout can create a flyer or brochure that would not be make-work.. All he need to do is ask a plc group, SM, or Committee.. I am sure someone is organizing something that could benefit from a flyer..

"Why would a Venturer take IOLS?" Because if the Venturing unit has an outdoor program then it is a required course.. VENTURING & SEA SCOUTS Youth Protection (Venturing Version)* (EL) This is Scouting (EL) Leader Specific (by position) Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills** *** ** Crews with outdoor programs only *** Not required for committee positions This comes from a PDF on Scouting.org in their training area. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/What_makes_a_trained_leader.pdf Yeah, my district & council doesn't pay attention to this required Venturing training either.. I have mentioned it a few times people just shrug.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Tampa - Can you describe more about the "accelerated T-1 in 4 months schedule".. Hopefully it was some wigged out, over zealous idiot that no one was listening to, and not something they are seriously thinking to roll out in the near future..

artjrk - your a day late. I posted yesterday, and looked for a debate, but everyone who voiced their opinion yesterday was in agreement that the scout pulling a past training that he had done but was not done with the focus of the instuction of the MB or what I had emailed him about concentrating on, would not have been acceptable.. So with that I dusted off my reservation about not accepting it and answered back.. I agree organizing others to help with the training is a form of communication skills. But, it is not what is part of this requirement. Unfortunatly I do believe that adding them to help with the actual training does take away from him being the sole person successfully communicates and teaches the other people.. I organize people to help with training all the time. That does not mean that I am the best person doing the training, I just feel I have been successful in rounding up great trainers around me that are far superior to me. But I will take credit in being either successful with the power of persuasion or nagging.. (I guess others will have to say which it is I do to round them up.) I don't think all communication needs to be in person. I communicate with the scouts for MB by email, phone and arranging meetings. If I start a MB from scratch with a scout, initial meeting is in person, then other meetings are only when I need to see what they are doing.. If I am finishing up a few left over requirements, then I don't have the initial meeting unless there is a real need.. qwaze - He does have great communication skills through email. I would normally be suspicious if it was the scout or the parents, but his parents were never that into scouting at all, so I have to surpress that suspicion with this scout.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Ok guys.. thanks for your input. This is what I wrote back to him in response to the email he had sent me. This one I had to get advice from others.. Consensus was Sorry, but no.. I wavered on if recently for the lashings it was since you started the Communications Merit Badge.. Teaching before the Merit Badge was started would have been an automatic No.. But, the advice I got pointed out a few things.. 1) Prepare a couple of assistants I take this to mean that you had others help with the training. Although this in itself is good practice in leading others, because the training was not solely done by you, it is unknown if the people learned from what you were doing in the front of the room or by what your assistants were showing them.. Meaning even if there is proof they learned, it may have not been because of your awesome communication skills.. Therefore if you do lashings or knots again, you may want to do a one-on-one training or smaller group so you are not in need of assistants.. 2) You need to have prepared Teaching aids.. (not as in people being assistants), but as in some sort of material you use to help you with your communication (and more than just bringing rope for lashings which is a no-brainer for that type of training.) You need to think about either a flip chart, hand-out, power-point, (lashings maybe could have had a knot board).. etc.. 3) This requirement needs you to be mentally aware of why you are going through the exercise. Its focus is on you working to improve your communication skills. In past Trainings that you have carried out your focus was maybe on teaching the skill, or just getting through an assignment.. I guess you & I do not have to work on #5 (Attend a public meeting).. A similar question has been asked about that.. Can I use the public meeting I attended when I did Citizenship & the Community.. The answer would be only if you were doing both merit badges at the same time and went to the meeting focusing on what both Merit badges want you to focus on.. the Community MB have you focus on something other than listening, note taking and objective reporting skills. It is not the act of having done, but the act of doing with a predetermined objective in mind. I guess currently you are taking the Camping merit badge with my husband. I know he will look at your past camping trips and use them, as well as other camping tasks you did before starting the MB.. This is a little different.. The focus is on camping while you camp, which you definitely did. It might be different if the focus was on teaching younger scouts camping skills while you camp, or focus on Leave No Trace while you camp. 4) If possible I would like to attend when you do the teaching, in order to witness you in action and offer any advice for improvement. 5) The Requirement does state with counselor approval.. Although I hate pulling that card when the scout has done a project with forethought and intent for the sole purpose of the MB requirement, and it was carried out well, just forgetting the detail about contacting me first. I dont mind pointing to that part of the Requirement if a scout is asking me to approve something that was not carried out for the MB requirement in the first place, was not done right, or was not something I would have approved in the first place. At the end of letter (there were a lot of other items in the letter that I could figure out the response for myself) I added this: ....I truly do not want to make the MB any more difficult for you by trying to add to the requirements.. But, I also want to make sure that both you and I know that you did earn the merit badge by doing things the right way, so that you can be proud of your accomplishments.

SP - The cooking MB has been changed, maybe 6 or 7 years back. Use to be camp cooking. Now it is 3 styles of cooking. Camp cooking, Backpack cooking, Home cooking.. I am sure the note from home was that they did their Home cooking portion. Most likely the things GKlose thinks that went missing in the MB were the non-cooking requirements.. Some of it might have been done while in camp, but things like discussions about sanitation and food-borne illnesses, may have been adult lead if the scouts don't have reference material at hand.. Hard to get food prices if you don't take a trip to a grocery store also, but a menu (minus a few details) could have been done.. So maybe it wasn't quite 75% they were lacking in..

emb021 - yes I know that.. When it was JLT the district ran it (guess it was more conducive). When it became TLT they stopped, and it seems no troop took it upon themselves to do their own(I know ours didn't) .. We were a pilot council for ILST.. So I (the brandy dandy new District Training Chair) asked all the troops I knew at round table if they were currently doing the TLT because I figured if someone was already doing TLT it would not be hard to work with them on changing it to the ILST.. NO ONE in the district did the TLT, more then half didn't even know what it was.. When explained it replaced the JLT some of the older SM's knew that and ask that I as DTC start that back up for them.. No one wanted to be the guinea pig Troop for ILST... Therefore with no volunteer troop, our district did not pilot the program for our council.. I know I was not the only district in our council that batted a zero either..

I am fighting getting a Facebook account.. Don't know why, but never thrilled me. But, I should start seriously looking for a job change, and they say networking that way is the in thing.. So it probably will come pretty soon.. I think I hate the notion of lots of emails of so & so wants to friend you.. Or so & so left a message.. I like the forum where I can come and go when I please and my email is basically left for personal messages.. (I get some spam, but have kept it surprisingly low.) Besides the fact that we would have alot of grumpy people if we said training didn't count (especially when IOLS changes in the near future).. 1) We are less then one mth from recharter. All year long we have told people old Training counts.. To tell them old Training does not count 1 mth from when they need to turn in J2E and then tell them there are no classes scheduled.. Would cause anger and lack of trust.. 2) The council software can't tell us who is trained.. Let alone who is Trained the "A" way, and who is trained the "B" way.. What a rechartering nightmare!!(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Nope.. NYLT is the course you can take only AFTER you have completed was use to be JLT, then TLT and now is ??? ILST ??? (or something like that).. So if no one in our district runs ??ILST ??? then no youth in our district can sign up to go to NYLT... As far as I know no one in our district does this training..

Jay, Maybe you have found a way to do FCFY well, (I can see it working if you mix the younger scouts in with older boys rather then setting them up in their own patrol, because then the older ones can help, and it is only a few boys in each patrol needing to do the camp cooking, site selection.. So they can have a couple of rounds each in a year if needing some repeat lessons.) The problem is most troop can not or do not.. So why do you need the rule to continue to do what you are doing.. Isn't it better to remove the rule, and encorage the poor troop programs with something different that throws light onto improving their program, not just their advancement?

If mandated training ever gets teeth, then a few years from now we will have few issues like this, because everyone will have taken the basic traing in their first year after signing up for a position.. That is except for the J2E where "There is Trained, and there is Trained" non-sense.. Where if they redo a course, you are trained for the mandatory standards, but can no longer count your trained status towards the J2E award unless you re-take the new course.. Luckily I was told as District Training Chair I get to decide if I will except old training courses for J2E... I said "YEP".. The only time I may say "NO" is if I hear of a poorly preforming troop where the leaders as supposibly "Trained".. Like my old Troop.. I should make them retake the new courses in hopes that something can stick.. Of course to do it that way, they will most likely ask "Why me when 95% of the other guys don't have to retake it?" Then I will have to basically say, "Your redoing it because you have a lousy troop program.." So I guess I get to be the bad guy one way or the other..

We have to speed the process up guys.. Life/Eagle by the end of the third year!.. Next phase, Eagle needs to be done by 14th Birthday so they are free to move to a Venture Crew when 14.. That's because the crews can't sell the fact you can leave BS and go to a crew to earn Eagle, since they have no focus on advancement.. So boys / parents (whoever is driving the boat) who are working for an Eagle rank aren't moving on to Venturing quick enough. Probably the reason of the new Eagle workbooks, that not only protected against abuses to the process, but went to the opposite extreme to dumb down the project.. Lead two people (like Mommy & Daddy) in a project that can be only 15 minutes long, if you wish.. This way the younger kids can whip out a project quickly..