moosetracker

OK I have gotten the Troop Venture Patrol & Venturing mixed up in Venture vs Venturing.. But if I am not mistaken Venturing has no patrols.. So the Venturing patrol leader is simply a Troop patrol leader isn't it??? When we had a Venture patrol (so to speak, they took on a different patrol name). I am sure some used it for their POR between Life & Eagle.. Everyone just labeled it "Patrol Leader".. Oh well.. Not going to go back and grab eagle rank away from anyone at this time (like you could).. Don't even know why we should, the boys worked the position as hard, if not harder then any other patrol leader.

Sounds like I'm in about the same generation as you Eamonn.. I can relate to everything you said.. And I'm a programmer.. But : Never got the textmessage thing.. So much easier to call!! Although I do like my email, but not on a phone.. A phone is a phone.. No internet, text messageing etc.. It is just too small! Don't like Instant Messenger either, in the same bucket as textmessaging. If I have your attention I want to talk to you, it is easier.. If I want to send you something you can look at when it is convenient for you, then Email. I may start Facebook soon for necessity of job hunting.. But I think I prefer the forums like these.. I just have had no interest in Facebook.. Games that you play with some unknown someone over the internet?? No interest.. I did get the xbox 360 with Kinnect, but I play the movement games, could care less for the ones that you just need a control stick for.. PlayStation?? Heard of it, never played it, and I thought it was a fad that came & went.. I am getting a Nook Tablet for xmas. I want the Nook basically for reading but can see watching a show on a car trip. I think things like the Nook or Kindle are the right size for reading.. The laptop is too large to snuggle up with, the phone way too small.. I also may use the internet for looking things up (as it's larger then the phone), but I don't think I will try to type into something like this forum on it as it's too small, and the touch keypad looks like a royal pain. Just getting set in our ways I guess.

I doubt we would find many trainers who do not work on Friday, or are willing to use a vacation day to staff a training.. Let alone very many participants willing to take a Friday off from work to be trained.. Our District is also very long, causing a drive for alot of people even if we try to center it. So breaking it up into alot of week nights would not be a favorite of many either. But, I could see a benefit of that if you are a smaller district.

unless the scout has not learned his basics those Trainer positions are good for anything.. Our SM would make sure it was something that got used.. A trainer in some skill(s) the troop had a weakness in, and he had ample opportunity to lead training events.. Once he gave the scout the trainer position and assigned him to help a scout from tenderfoot-to-first when the scout had need of extra guidence due to learning disabilities..

I will have to check out the syllabus for that.. With other courses I follow the progression exactly.. With IOLS, I look at the time per a session, and what the sessions requires done.. Then I do the sessions in what ever pattern I think is beneficial or my trainers for a certain session have the time to come in for. Cooking & Backpacking in a pre-meeting.. As they need it to pack and organize their menus. Plants, Animals & First Aid trainers get first dibs on the time they can come in.. As they are the ones that you like people with above Scouting skills knowledge to teach.. People with multiple sessions try to keep together so they don't have to either stay a long time or travel out twice.. All others first come - First serve as to organizing their personal committements around the schedule..

That IOLS doesn't require the overnight is good to know.. I doubt my Council training group agrees though.. The reasons they outlawed testing out of IOLS is a) That they don't do the overnight b) Those that know there stuff should then go as trainers and learn how to teach what they know..(try telling them that this is not what the normal participants are to get from IOLS, they just get an overdose of alot of info in the firehose method.. Hope they remember 25% and go on to learn more within their troops.) Of course I was a wee bit upset when they outlawed IOLS for these reasons then they were fine with one trainer who was taking his participants cabin camping all in one meeting..

Yep, there is suppose to be at least one overnight camping built into the IOLS program. Fri starting at 5pm and then just Sunday, is just not enough time to do the program correctly.. For example when our district went to 1 day First Aid was given a 20 minute spot (to cover all the T-to-1 first aid requirements).. If they did have Saturday & 1/2 Sunday they got only 30 to 40 minutes. (Still too short a time).. I would love to get some LDS trainers, so far they do usually keep to themselves.. But, maybe since the campfire program is fairly easy I could find one willing to take charge of the Friday check-in and campfire program.. It's an idea..

At our rechartering I was working the Training support table, I was approached by the LDS that they can not take the IOLS due to the fact it basically runs over a weekend which includes Sunday.. Never thought about it before.. They probably had no issue with training before I took over as my predecessor ran a 1 day IOLS (obviously he ran it wrong) but it did solve the problem for the LDS group.. I wish someone had approached me before, as one-on-one we have accomidated other problems of people missing parts of the course.. We usually met with them and finished up in one-on-one sessions.. Talking with my son on how to accommodate LDS he feels that while we have done one-on-one make up with others, the LDS will become a greater number to make that difficult to do. Currently we hold a early course before the weekend that is about 3 hours, where we cover cooking, backpacking and organize the groups so they can arrange their food.. I suggested making that a full day course one Saturday.. Then having people come in on Friday night campover and finish the rest of the course an that Saturday, with no Sunday.. Friday night our family usually arrives to the campsite early so we are ready in the morning of the IOLS but we arrive late... very late.. Due to work conflicts.. So most likely the participants will arrive before us on Friday, and most likely there will be no time for the campfire program that evening.. Unless we can get another trainer to oversee Friday night.. Anyway those are my two thoughts.. How does your district accomodate LDS in their IOLS Training?

Well - The Christmas parade comment was said in a bad way, and it is not right to feel if her Webs can't attend at that time no one will want to either.. BUT... I do sort of understand her frustration with the time, and can see why her Webs may not attend.. You already stated they are driving a distance to get to the Pack.. Having driven a distance for the troop we selected for our son, and being a working parent.. Weekdays at 4 or 5 are problematic! To get from your work (whereever that is), to home to pick up your son, then to drive a distance to the troop meeting.. Yeah, problematic.. At times I still did not see how it was possible for someone living in the neighborhood to get to those events on time without at least leaving work 1 or 2 hours early.. But for me it would be more like leaving work 3 to 3.5 hours early.. So some of her frustration could have been misdirected, and came out sounding wrong.. But, other then that, seems like you have a great list.. She may have a great list against you too.. I always wonder when someone is putting alot of people down when they are not present, what they do when I am not around.. Sort of takes you back to those middle-school / high school days with those "popular" girls who were the last on my list that I would ever want to hang with.

When is your recharted in regards to the Feb Crossover?.. If you have recharter after that and can stomach them for 2 to 3 more months, that would be a nice point in time to kick them out with the kids.

Sorry to hear your troubles. Did you get more adult help besides the 3 vipers? Because you were a barely working, couldnt survive because you were doing it all Pack before they arrive. Get rid of the vipers and if you have not recruited more leadership you will now be back to yourself, minus those who left.. Again a situation that you could not survive with.. A situation where you were going to leave for a new pack.. So will you need to leave for a new pack with or without the vipers?.. If so, I dont know if you should make the decision if the 3 vipers go or not, because you will be making a decision to leave the pack with basically no adult leadership (except a den leader that you mentioned.) I tell you, you seem like such a personable thing on the forum, and through you we get a sense that you can make things fun for the boys, and that the kids & parents have no issues with you.. But, except for that I would be wondering at this point if it was you or them with the issue.. Wow, if it werent for bad luck with you adult leadership sounds like you would have no luck at all.. The drunk guy who was CM but lost it because of being drunk, then was CC but lost it for being drunk. The old comm.. Member who was a bump on the log. The old Advancment guy.. Who was good at advancement but nothing else. The Web II Den leader Grandmother who had social issues. The other Den leader (who I guess will go to a new pack with you).. Which means get rid of the vipers and it is you and the one den leader.. Pack will fold either way, and you are back to the question of if you want it to fold with you being burnt out or not.. When is your recharter? You should figure this out before then, otherwise you will feel duty bound to stay one more year.

So to get this straight it is open to Parents/freinds of the bell ringers, those who did not ring bells, but just know someone who did.. Yet your son or family can't go as a friend of a bell ringer, because he is a youth member in the troop and didn't ring a bell? Not right.. So I hear you are pulling out, wife is in tears, son is confused.. (But not pulling out???).. If he wants to stay for now it is his decision, but if you think there may be a time when enough is enough for him (either the troop antics, or the lack of parental interest helping him to stay anchored).. Any other troops in the area that you can start looking at so you can have him visit them just as he starts loosing enthusiam, but before he is not wanting to try a different troop. If you have a plan of action, you can quietly hang onto it, but be prepared to use it when you see a need..

Well obviously none of us can follow every tidbit of rules or guidelines put out be BSA, or there would be no time left for scouting.. We all aim to do our best on what we think is important for a well rounded unit (and none of us can even agree on that).. Other things we look at as guidelines.. So full uniform, part uniform, H-ll with the uniform! emblems just so, emblems kind-of sorta so, H-ll with the emblems!.. Boy run, adult run, somewhere in-between.. Elections for POR, Elections after Adults have wittled down who is elegable, no elections.. Eagle Mill scouting - back-to-roots-scouting.. Committees all registered, Parents meetings, All can vote only registered members.. All members trained.. No members trained.. Somewhere in-between.. Use on registered merit badge councilors, use MBC approved by the troop whether registered or not. Follow the no laser gun/water pistol rules - have unofficial scout groupings and do them anyway. Fill out the Tour planning or Unit fund-raising App. everytime needed, when you remember to, never.. Except for a some YP rules and their uptight rules about gays and atheists.. Every unit has their uniqueness because no one interprets things the same way, or chooses what are rules, what are guidelines, and what they will follow and what they wont..

No, I put you in the cub scouts Tiger program for a social life!! I was concerned about you not seeing kids your age(especially other boys as there were some older girls in the neighborhood) due to being an only child and living in the boonies.. Your father wasn't so gung-ho on Cub Scout because he feared you would burn out before boy scouts.. You didn't want to be in Tigers because it was not your decision, and you already had stubborn, rebellious and pain-in-the-but down before first grade.. Even before you could talk.. Don't know if you stayed after Tigers because you loved summer camp, or because you were pacified that it was now your choice. Why you stayed in and are still involved are your reasons, and I can believe is not for a social life.. But, you were put into CS in Tigers for a social outlet.. So the story is you lost her number... Ok.. If she believes that one, good for you!!!...

Tampa Turtle - I agree with the heavy schoolwork load, at least with my son (who is a little older then yours) they had it easy up to probably 8th grade. So little homework I feared they weren't educating him. Then in 8th grade it all changed, I do not know if it was because it was middle school or that's about when "Leave no child behind" kicked in.. Anyway it seemed they just poured on way too much homework, like they were making up for the lost early years when they didn't do much with them.. It was crazy!! I think it settled down to a decent load by Junior year of HS.. With my son also being one who took 15 minutes worth of work and took 2 hours doing it, those middle years were tough! Someone else mentioned a fear of when their son hit middle school.. I was hoping the would pick up the pace in the elementary years so as to even out the educational flow throughout all 12 years.. Sounds like they haven't done that.. Other problems I had with mid-school / high-school were that they never let them organize their own study habits.. Every year it was the teacher who forced what type of notebook system and other study habits they were to use.. Their way never was a style my son could adjust to, so it hurt him in school until he decided to organize it their way to be looked over and graded on in the first weeks of school.. Then change over to his own style.. You can guide them with study habits in the early years, but by high school you should accept they are individuals and each has a differing style of what will work for them. The other thing was they were still coloring and making "pretty things" like copying and coloring maps on through high school.. Something that was busy work, with alot of time and effort, and little learning value. I guess they were trying to make learning "fun" but coloring looses it's appeal with many who are not artistically inclined when you get older..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

So you get parent & son sides in this.. But, note that MIB agrees that we rarely forced him to give up extra curricular.. And although MIB being very s-l-o-w with homework the lack of social interactions are far more complex.. Part of it being living in very rural area where the child must either take the bus home, or choose to stay at school until about 5:30 pm when he can get picked up. And until about 6th grade he did stay at the school in a latch key program, and could choose to socialize or do homework. The program offered both and you could join extra-curricular after school programs that were taking place at the school.. Also where we lived had no kids his age withing walking distance, so visiting friends meant driving him to their house or inviting them over, which although we suggested it to him many times he rarely did (even over the summer months).. Boyscouts was something we got him involved in to give him a much needed social life. Luckily after his Tiger year when he wasn't too happy with being "forced" into scouts.. He decided after summer camp to like it and stay with it.. (We told him he could quit if he so choose after Summer Camp.) With an exception of a very few other things, Scouts was his social life. Even when he romantically interested in a girl, when she said "Let's be friend's".. His idea of friendship meant never calling her all summer long.. Some may have been "fear of the girl" and making the wrong move that would scare her off, but alot had to do with this was seriously what he thought friendship meant. So the girl (who surprising decided to start dating and then get engaged to him, even after being "ignored" in my son's idea of what friendship means) has introduced my son to what a social life means.. And now he can look back and say "Boy, I missed out!" But, it was not all because we cracked a whip about grades and made him give up his social life. Actually now in college although he has more of a social life then he did in grade school or high school, and although we know less aboutwhat he needs to accomplish in his courses, and although he states he hates school.. He seems to be keeping up his grades, in some ways even better then high school, and has found a way to speed up how he gets his schoolwork done in order to be able to find time for a social life.. So you might say all work and no play had MIB out of balance.. But alot of that inbalance was self-induced.

Wow Qwazse everyone always said I was hard because anything other then an A or B was failure.. Pretty much something I retained from what was expected of me when I grew up.. You are worse then me.. Never saw as punishment myself, in fact I rarely had to make the call, my son did it himself by figuring out his priorities. Of course sometimes we were in the dark of what was due, but then my son lost alot of sleep getting the assignment done before school.. Again not my call, just my figuring it out when he was still up at 1AM..

As Basement said, you should get verbal consent.. With our troop, the Scout account went to the troop funds if the scout does not renew, as you can't hand them the money, or have them buy anything that could be used outside of scouting.. But technically it is their money until they don't recharter so they should have say in it's use up until they don't recharter, and it then when they don't recharter and it becomes troop money, it then becomes throwing troop money away if you use their account money to recharter them and they didn't want to be rechartered..

Does your unit set up Scout Accounts? The scout Account would be tapped if there was anything. Don't know what to tell you about improving payments in future years though.. Our unit started about a month in advance, and usually got fully paid by those we knew were active, those who did not pay were questionable if they were continuing or not, and lack of payment meant to us they did not want to continue. For this year: It may hurt your numbers, but you could simply not register them until they pay.. Our unit will not.. It may hurt your J2E numbers if calculated from your recharter form, but so be it.. Don't know if they have to fill out new apps because they aren't in the recharter when sent in, but if they do it will keep them from being late next year.. Some units do not recharter on time, biggest reason is because of those who they are waiting on to pay up.. Drives the DE crazy because now they have to call and pester and chase.. But I just saw the signup for our district (which is also this weekend, Do you happen to be in the NH area? All districts in our council is this weekend.) Anyway, only about half the units are signed up.. Don't know if not rechartering on time is a ding to your J2E though.. Should be.. Now if you could care less about J2E, either solution will work for this year.. If you do care about J2E my only suggestion is to call your DE and have him give you advise on what the proper procedure is when you know you have active scouts that will recharter, but you cannot/willnot put them on the recharter until they pay.. See if they have advice on how to work it so that your J2E is not effected, other then the unit paying for them..

Well, Calico post was enlightening for me.. I knew uniforms are not to be used for fundraising, even if it is a product we are selling, I knew for troop fund-raising you had to offer a product or service and not solicit or hold similar to gambeling.. But.. #1) Our troop always filled out the Unit fund-raising App. for troop fundraisers. Never thought about filling it out to with our CO's church bazar, as it wasn't our fundraiser. #2) Did not know you could not do the Bell ringers or other "cheritable cause" solicitation while out of uniform.. I knew it had to be out of uniform, but thought you could do it.. I guess two reason; first, I have seen flyers similar to what SSScout put out before, were the SA is promoting BSA units doing this service (SSSCouts link is from scouting.org which should mean the flyer has BSA's stamp of approval); second, I was trying to think if any unit we were in solicited as a fundraiser in the past, at first I thought we did not, then I remembered early in cub scouts, Don't know if it was Council promoted, or Nationally promoted but definately not Pack promoted.. While putting out Scouting for food bags, cub had to personnally hand out the bag and then flash the UNICEF milk carton like piggy bank thingy.. So it was kindof manditorally pushed by our Council or National.. Anyone else remember this? It probably ended around 1998 or 1999 as I only think we did it two or three years.. Maybe this ended when this policy was changed? Either way, as for the OP's Troop, it doesn't make me think any less of them, they have gone from having a tradition that is not well thought through as to how unfair it is.. To also being misinformed.. But the misinformation is understandable given National sending out mixed messages.. I am still not sure if the back of the fund-raising app is correct, or the Salvation Army app.. I now the Fund-raising app is more official then a flyer on the Scouting.org site that is put out by a non-BSA organization.. But I have always gone to Scouting.org and trusted that what they put out is in line with Nationals policy.. I think National has to sit down and figure out what there policy is and bring all their material in line with that. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I guess I come in the middle of both sides.. Is a Christmas party worth leaving a troop over, or becoming COR to be the controling force.. No.. It is not a hill to die on.. But while having incentives for scouts who do a service project with something within reason is fine. The troop Christmas party should by it's very nature of what it stands for, be welcoming to all members.. It should not be turned into the incentive for a service rendored, unless you stop calling it a Christmas party and call it what it is.. Does not matter if the troop spends money on it, or it is pot luck.. Any way you slice it up, it is Scrooge at his very best... "Bah Humbug"... I am sure over time you will learn if this is a rule the boys made or some adult made.. If the boys made it, then as others have stated, let your son work the issue for the most part and it may take a few years until he is on the PLC to get anywhere.. If you find it is being pushed by the adults, then at that point in time, it wont hurt for you to help him with the issue.. Allow him to work the issue as the unit should be boy lead, but if the unit isn't, then adults may not have respect for boys with differing opinions, and it may need the backing of a parent or two standing behind him. Are there any other Scouts being left out due to not being able to ring bells? Maybe the boys left out can get to and come up with something they would enjoy doing.. A movie, a christmas festival in the area, a christmas hayride.. The smaller the group the easier to find something that really excites them, The larger and you can throw your own party..

True.. coerced is sort of strong. But it still might be just the party, and the feeling of being left out of something that you feel should be open to all members, and not based on a reward for a service rendered.. A feeling of alienation if you don't do something. Take Beavah's example: I volunteer for lots of stuff, eh? If I give a lot to my professional organization, I might get an award at a professional association dinner. I don't really expect I'll be entitled to a party at my church. And vice versa. So if the church does christmas caroling and throws a Hot coca & cookies party afterward for the carolers, I do not think people would feel they were coerced.. But, if the church does christmas caroling and states only those who participated in the caroling are invited to the Christmas eve service, you might feel you are being "coerced" to do christmas caroling.. Now I don't think a Christmas eve service is in the same league as a christmas party, but couldn't quite think of anything that raised the bar from Hot cocoa / cookies to an event that normally you expect the door should be open to all members..

Maybe as someone said, not calling it the troop xmas party.. But something like the "Bell Ringers Party".. I understand pizza or other goodies during or immediately after the work.. I think we have had something like ice cream or candy treats at a meeting for after a service project only for the scouts at the service project, when the turn out was disappointingly low.. To make at point to the boys that did not attend, as well as reward the boys that did and ended up working twice as hard due to fewer hands helping.. But, don't understand not welcoming all members of the troop to what is labeled a troop christmas party ..

Is this your first Christmas with the troop? Sounds like the are into a tradition, you just found out about.. Hard to kill tradition, but maybe you can nudge them into changing it a little.. Such as opening it up to accept "something" that constitutes holiday related community service.. Maybe your sons other community service can fall into that, or you can ring bells in a more convient place at a more convient time.. Or if your church carols around the hospitals.. Or help at a nursing home the elderly get their christmas cards out.. There is so many, many options available to offer service hours to that are holiday related.. All these grand little by-laws units make up, that then get stuck into a feeling of tradition or "We've alway done it this way".. Probably dates back to a SM's grand idea, that few of the scouts were volunteerily signing up for..

Interesting to find how lots of other troops operate. You get some of that at roundtable, but more here. Also it is still confined to how your district and council operate, and you find that other districts and councils operate differently, here. Any plans on sticking around in scouting after your Eagle is earned?.. Are you soon to be 18 where if you stay you would be a young adult leader, or do you still have time as a youth? Did you find your unit is operating well compared to other units, a little tweaking, or in need of a total overhaul?