moosetracker

emb021 - "A leader who doesn't earn the "natural" adjective is basically a guy with a title (or in BSA terms, a patch on his sleeve). One way or another he's been declared the leader, but does a terrible job actually providing any leadership. I disagree with this statement, because you are stating if they are not natural, then they can never ever become good leaders.. If your not a natural born leader you CAN become a great leader.. (although not a Natural born leader).. Take two boys from my troop..: Boy A : first time as Patrol leader was awful.. Yelling, demanding.. No one wanted to be in his patrol.. When he got his Eagle, it was a great story to laugh over, because over time he became one of our best leaders, and boys did follow him once he learned the RIGHT way to be a leader. Boy B : I do not know if he ever was considered a great leader in our Troop, always very shy and quiet.. Sort of the odd kid.. If working with scouts we usually gave him no more the two at a time, so he wasn't overwhelmed.. He was SPL once, but it was when no one wanted the job, and he was reluctantly talked into it. He did the job, but wasn't great at it. Then off he went to college for something with learning forestry and being an outdoor guide for those mega-buck trips (there is a college for that).. Anyway, from what I hear, every year they elect a captain for their skill training. He has consistantly been elected time & time again.. Although this could be a case where all the other students are lazy, I don't think it is, as it looks great on a resume.. Also I am shocked that for summer jobs, he never comes home he goes off to different states, different countries whatever, anything doing a job that parrallels his planned vocation.. I think he just found the perfect nitch for himself and found his self confidence through it. Though why it wasn't shining while he was in our troop when the outdoor activities were close to his vocation, I will never know.

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Well pchadbo's idea of having it the night before, will not take away the scouts day.. So pchadbo if we had been a district/council like Basements, you would now have to charge a "district fee" since you are opening it up to any adult in any unit.. Yeah.. Right.. Instead you have our DE emailing around trying to figure out who is putting a Jet Pack on their PWD car.. Just take care that these guys don't get so out of control that they possibly damage the track before the scouts get to race.. Some of our Adults are big overgrown kids and may just try things like jet packs..

The traits of a leader I think are well defined in the above post.. This is my take on what make a person be considered a Natural born Leader or not. To me, they already walk into the mission either with the traits or pick up the traits needed for leadership quickly and easily.. The person though may have learn the traits needed from something else in their life, or just by being raised in a family that naturally encouraged these traits, or you may find no where in his background where the abilities were already honed, but the boy has the traits anyway. That does not mean that someone who is not a natural born leader can not become a great leader under the guidence of others.. In scouting, that just means that the older boys, SM & ASM have a little work to do to polish up the diamond in the rough. After which this boy may go off to college or work or extra curricular activities and others will define him as a natural born leader, because it took little effort for them to bring him up to speed, and he shows the personality, that has others respect and follow him.. I think a few can show the traits although nothing in their background points to where they learned if from. These are true NBL's.. But most NBL's have learned the skills from somewhere or something, and are labeled NBL's by the people who know them now, but didn't know them then.

BD - If my district/council pulled that on me I would charge the fee, then turn around and hand them the itemized expenses.. Oh, the expenses out do the fees.. We ran into the red? Oh, well you win some, you loose some.. Pay up!) (which thankfully we don't have something like that, as long as I don't run into the red my DE is happy. And I have not, sometimes I take on buying a few syllabus's or pay for some extra snacks if I think I have too much profit.) On the volunteer level at least, we have to make sure we don't personnally profit from an event. To the point that the food the trainers eat for an event can not be from the fees collect. (They can pay for the syllabus's, other books, rope, building rent, food the participants use etc.. But, the trainers food does not come from this or it is considered that we are profiting.. That is why if I am on staff for Woodbadge I pay $85.. I also personally pay for the food my staff eats on a weekend training.. I am guilty of not itemizing the donuts/coffee my staff eats at a 4 to 5 hour training.

Well I am in a good (as far as I can tell) district/council. But even with that you know the numbers game is important to them although with some you can tell they wish it wasn't so.. The numbers game keeps the dogs off their backs. But, we may not know ourselfs about mis-appropriations until our DE or SE move on and someone new holds them up to the light.. Unfortunately feeling you are in an organization preaching trustworth, loyal etc.. You are apt to be trusting, to a point of getting the wool pulled over your eyes a few time. Maybe it was someone else who felt their camps were getting shabbier & shabbier, and that money meant to maintain them was getting used by the SE in some sort of mis-appropriation.. I thought that was you. But, I am not positive, So if you thought you had a good Council, then maybe not. If your new SE is the one that adjusted the numbers back to being accurate, you may want to give him a chance to clean ship in other places.. It could be that he had to readjust it and blame it on the exiting SE.. So that as over the years he inflates it again he doesn't leave with the numbers up around 26,000 inaccurate.. But, possibly he did it to run a clean ship.

Sorry Basement, but from all you have said about your district/council, are you really surprised by this?? Wasn't it last year you won quality award, when you didn't even fill out the form. No one can tell you what to do.. Your district numbers will drop, you might end up merging a few districts if it is bad enough.. Then after a few years, (if your new Professionals are honest) you will start to see an accurate picture of how your council is really doing and go from there.. I think your the third or fourth on this board who has gone through it, but there is nothing to do but ride it out. (unless you have 13,000 boys in your backpocket that are ready to sign up.)

Again Fred, that just sounds like the same old retoric that has been uttered for years.. Of course it is ALWAY good for the units within the CO to support each other in various ways.. Especially the Troop if they want a bonding relationship with the pack so that cubs will think of them when looking for a troop to cross over to.. I just think they re-packaged and sold it in a bright new box with ribbon & bow, and it might have caught your interest when they said something about it a year or two back.. Some sort of example they gave or the speakers charisma made you sit up, take notice and say.. "Wow! That is interesting".. Although you probably had heard it said 20 times before then, and 20 times since.

Basement - Gotta disagree with this statement : The district really doesn't care if troop A is better than troop B. What district wants is 100% transition from Pack A to Troop A at the same CO. It removes the confusion and conflict.....probably retain more scouts too. Both A & B troop may be good. But if A troop is into hiking, and B troop is into aquatics then those boys who can't swim may be better off going with troop A, while the boy who dislikes hiking but loves canoeing, snorkeling etc.. Is better off going with troop B.. If you are running a good boy lead troop, do you really need/want the family who comes in demanding a change for a more organized troop.. Wouldn't they (and you) just be happier if they skipped on down the road to the Adult lead troop in the first place? Forcing boys into troops they know they will not fit in means either the boys don't cross into any troop, or they cross in and drop out before a year is over. Giving boys a choice of troops I feel better serves retaining more boys for a longer time period. P.S. Don't know if we have it now, but I do think at one time we had a DE that was for Venturing only.. Still the crews were thought to be in the district their unit's meeting place was in. I do know though in our district, little is done for our crews on district level.. Training has been more through Council Training events (I have tried but they put this high bar on who can be trainers.. Not just knowledgable in Ventureing but must have taken EDGE & Powderhorn & show their crews are using the advancement method etc..).. They set up their own events & we get little on if they are doing advancement. Still when I get a list of what units are in my district, they are listed as in my district.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

How did all the crews get their own district? Districts are broken up by land mass and where your unit meets. Sounds like a way to segragate them more, from mainstream BSA and tell them they are unwanted...

Didn't hear anything new, but I think it was always the idea to do so. Personally I like the idea of visiting two or three troops, but not the idea of the whole den jumping to the same troop as a unit. If they are going to jump together as a whole unit they might as well just go with their CO's pack (or most of them should.).. That's because few of those scouts are making any decision as to what is the best pack for them accept just exceptting either the Den Leaders decision as to which one is the best.. Or following the lead scout who did make a decision like sheep. Troops should attract different scouts based on what they seem to focus on and what the scouts interest is. I guess there could be a poorly run troop.. But alot of times it is not that, it is just follow the leader. We have heard a couple of times of incidents where if that leader is an adult, they are not choosing what is best, but rather continueing some sort of grudge, war, or just already have kids in the other troop and so have made up their minds before even searching.. When my son crossed over there were two troops that our Pack usually look at and half went one way while half went the other.. Then we moved again, but not back to the other troop.. Finding a "right" fit between scout and troop is really an individual & personal decision, and makes all the difference in if the scout stays or leaves the troop after a few years.

What's a Boston butt?? I've heard of Boston Baked Beans. But, normally we don't serve up butts unless it's a rump roast.

Well I this year, I think until March the current CM will be there, then son will be CM until the current Web I cross over next March. Then this lady plans to be CM. Son is currently an ACM, and might do both jobs within both units. Seeing this is January, seems weird to do nothing until Next year. Especially I feel the best recruiting is done in the Fall when kids go back to school, and routines are starting.. rather then the Spring when parents are looking forward to the summer when routines are kicked to the curbstone.. Oh you might get some signup if the kids are old enough to go to summer camp, or you have a great summer line up (Which if we do nothing with this group all year long, would mean we won't have it unless the incoming parents want to come in and organize it. I think if son comes in as CM, and the old CM takes on SM the time to change things up is with them taking on the positions under a condition that everyone is expected to pitch in one way or another large or small.. Half the reason these parents don't get invovled is that the job of the "do-it-all" man is not something they would wish on their worst enemy and if they show any intrest in helping out that job could some day be theirs.. Best to stay out and not risk it. So to get some to pitch in (seriously), all need to pitch in (while I know some who really don't want to will find the easiest thing to do). I guess I can understand this behavior from parents who just have their kids in Cub Scouts for fun or a free babysitter.. But, if the parents really are hoping their sons learn about citizenship, leadership and teamwork.. Then I don't see how they expect the "Do as I say, not as I do" approach to work.

Possibly true.. Now if at that time, she had plans to take on CM or CC and go into a different position based on the needs of the unit, that would be another matter.. Still, it seems weird, and I still have fragments of being allowed to do whatever I wanted as ticket items as long as it was tied to my unit when I took WB.. Well lets just hope the unit lives long enough for her to complete her ticket, or if not they can relocate a majority of the boys to the Pack in our town, since she can not hurry the end results up.. It will take her until Feb-March of next year to finish it up. As you said we can still do some things to try to help without it being tied to a ticket item..

Don't know, talking on the board before about WB, seems with most things our Council WB follows the Syllabus to the "T", where alot of places have invented their own version of. But, the syllabus doesn't have the overview of the Ticket. When we had 5 seperate projects that didn't relate to tickets, I did the projects, but really didn't understand the process. Now that they have the vision or goal and the 5 ticket items are steps that will get you to that goal, I understand the ticket process (and for better or worse, working your ticket is alot easier).. So, if our council is incorrect about something, I do not think it is that they are "too big for their britches".. But, more like someone went to the WB training picked up something and interpreted it wrong.. Now,I can see listening for problems of people in a position who are spreading themselves to thin, like a CC should not make it their goal to do the financing job better themselves, and get the PLC more organized, and organize a website for communication.. Because the CC's job is not to take on all the jobs of the committee, but to find new committee members to delegate appropriate tasks to them, & or let them take the reins for certain tasks. This would send up red flags the person doesn't quite understand their position. When all 5 tickets were seprate full projects, I did not understand that one of my tickets could not be in doing a few things at council level to see if I might want to branch into that area. But, unless you were taking on a new position, or starting up a new unit, I can see that with having one project with all tickets are part of it you really can't use a ticket to explore new things, and the whole project could be something new, but if your going to do a LARGE project for it, you better be very sure you want to do this, and not be just exploring new things.. I can see where some of this could get interpreted slightly wrong.

Ramblin Rose - Sounds like some adult quarrel to get so many to leave just after recharter, rather then making an announcement and organizing others to take their position before.. But, it also sounds like you have a decent parent pool with people who will step up and take on tasks (although to date, the CM position is a little scary).. I have a feeling you will be able to talk someone into it eventually because they know that they are not committing themselves to doing EVERYTHING, and be the do-it-all guy.. SP - I understand the reasoning of the policy in most cases.. Adult battles start out with people who are sticking their noses into areas and issues they should not be involved with. But, there should be an "exception" rule.. I am not sure if this is defined by woodbadge, or grew out of our councils interpretation of something.. I know when my husband took WB, he could do anything for a ticket. A year later, when I wanted to do one of my tickets outside of the troop, I couldn't, I had to stay in the unit.. (at that time the 5 tickets were like 5 totally unrelated projects.) Now the ticket has changed to being one large goal with the tickets the steps on how to acheive it, and the whole thing must be within your current scouting position (or a position you are soon to start doing.)

Ann - Anyone who attends Woodbadge has not completed the course until they organize for themselves a ticket, which as John-In-KC stated is to help better themselves and their unit.. They have 18 months to complete the ticket.. It is like a mini vision of where you can see something in the unit evolving and improving, then figuring out the steps to work at makeing that vision a reality.. Some do it faster then others, but unless there were extenuating circumstances that gained you an extension, they need to be complete in that time.. The counsilor is just someone who was on the Woodbadge staff that has been assigned to look over your work and be a sounding board/guide as the participants work through their ticket. John - Her ticket was related to her postion as a DL.. So it is working with the boys to get them prepared for Boy Scouts.. She doesn't have anything in her ticket related to getting other adult leaders on board, or recruiting new boys, or saving the pack.. For right or wrong, our Council pushes you to have your ticket within your current scout position (unless you are really planning to start something new like starting up a venture Crew, taking over as CM..).. This lady tried to have her ticket be about saving the Pack, but those who were approving tickets denied that goal, and had her create a new ticket that was about what she could improve in the position she was in..

Yeah, it just concerns me if my son is up to this BIG job, with finishing college, getting his first "real" career job, and planning his wedding with his fiance.. Plus all the other things he does for Scouting.. Being ACM for another Unit, Being on the Eagle Advancement Board, and this spring at least, I have dumped alot of the Training Chair position on him, as being on woodbadge staff this year it seems every staff training day fell on a day we had scheduled for District training..

Do you know who the incoming are? That would be nice, if all the deadwood left in one big crossover, but I fear if you have some left behind, they are there to poison the minds of the incoming and have them learn quick, that you don't need to do a thing, just elect one person to do it all, and make sure you are not the guy elected.. It is easy to convince someone to be lazy, and pass the buck.

Wow!! Just never knew! Actually it was not that long ago I watched a canadian TV Series "Murdoch Mysteries" whose storeline is turn of the century Toronto.. In one of the early shows, Murdoch was denied a promotion to Detective because the interveiwer took exception to him being Catholic.. I was never sure if it was the man's personal prejudice, or a "Canadian" thing.. I guess it wasn't just a "Canadian" thing in those days.. As his immediate boss was very angry about the reason he was denied the promotion. But, I was also surprise when the same show had an episode about an Indian who was good at police work. Murdoch wanted to get him into the police force, but at that time his immediate boss said he was sorry but due to his being Indian it would never happen, and he didn't have enough clout to fight the system.. That I was a little surprised by, due to the fact that when I was giving a Boy Scout presentation, during the rehersal I made a comparison that Australias history with the Aborigines was similar to that of how America treated the Indians.. I was told to change it to say it was similar to how the United States treated the Indians, because Canadia had treated their Indians very well..

Always knew about the Irish Catholic/Protestant skirmish. Seriously though, never heard of anything while I was growing up. I guess I grew up in the right areas, but you would have thought that with all the movies/books depicting conflict I would have run into a something using that as a backdrop for the storyline. The only thing I know was that JFK being the first Catholic President was a big thing sort of like the first black president.. I never knew what the big deal was over it though. Oh well, live & learn.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I would say both are needed.. With 8 boys come at least 8 parents if all parents were single.. After crossover they have one adult leader, and my son.. To recruit more boys the parents & boys coming in need to see a functional Pack, not a dysfunctional one.. Disfunctional does not scream fun, and disfunctional will have the incoming parents think real hard if they want to be a part of that mess.. So you have a vicious circle here, and really the first need is to get the current parents that are there off their duffs, because if they don't start working as a team to save their Pack, they are not going to have any luck in recruiting anyone who will save it for them.. (Accept my son, Who by the way, can be an idiot (although a lovable one)") If they can make the Pack functional then we can attract new members.. If they can not, I don't hold out for retaining anyone we attract more then one or two visits. Does anyone see it working better by dragging newbies in and then dumping the work on the newbies before they know what hit them??

The ticket thing just got muddled into the mess, because she probably would not have approached me about the situation, as the Training Chair, she more approached me about her worries for her pack and the effect it would have on her completion of the ticket.. Mind you I really don't think that that is numbero uno problem on her mind. It is just her way of trying every and all avenues for help... Her connection with me is her ticket.. So she starts out with her ticket and rolls around to her real worries. Had I been the Popcorn Chair, it would have started out with Popcorn and rolled around to her real worries. If she was in a functional troop though, her ticket is right on to help the boys. When you look at the fact that she has a good size den six active boys while the whole Pack is collapsing around them, you have to admit she must be doing something right for those boys to keep them strong and active and enthusiatic.. And if all her concern was about being a good DL, then a ticket to help her six slowly become knowledgeable of camping and other skills they need and learn how to work as a patrol would be a strong one for a Webs DL.. It is just that it seems kindof out of place, sort of like the band that kept on playing as the Titanic sank, taking them with it..

ScoutNut - I did not say that *I* had her reformat her ticket to be the scope of her position in the pack.. I said that *they* had her reformat her ticket to be the scope of her position in the pack.. After her ticket was approved and accepted that is when I was given her name to be one of my two WB people I am to support as they work their ticket. I did send off to the WB Grand Puba an email with a "heads up".. Saying we weren't at the point of needing him to intercept, but I did not want to get to that point and blind-side him with the issue.. At first when talking to her I thought that when the Webs II crossed over it only left her Den, so I jokingly said, "Well if your den is your whole pack, you could be cub Master and still organize them to cross over.. I am thinking that since most of the parents seem to sit at the meetings as blobs on chairs while their boys are doing their unit things, this might be a great time to do some weekly training activities with them, both cub scout & boy scout related.. Except for 2 boys all parents are soon to cross over to the troop and continue to be blobs on chairs if they don't also get to understand that Boy Scouts also need adult leaders but with a different ultimate goal of guiding, encouraging, supporting in order for the boys to not only dream big become successful at making their dreams come true.. One SM, usually does not make a dynamic and active troop..

OK, you religious historians can enlighten me on this. Where in the USA is there an anti-Catholic community?.. Everywhere I go that seems to be the #1 or #2 religious group of a community, even if a majority are non-active catholics. Then again, I was always surprised JFK was the first Catholic president.. Until recent closing of Catholic churches there always seemed to be 2 to 3 LARGE Catholic churches in the neighborhood to every 1 tiny protestant church, and a sprinkling (maybe 1 in a community of any other religions.) I know the Protestants were the first to come over on the Mayflower.. yadda, yadda.. But it seemed that at least before I was born, the Catholics out numbered the protestants.. Anyway I have never seen either of those religious getting the prejudice that Jewish, Muslims and other religions have had to face during their history (at least in the USA, I am sure it would be different if I went to a Middle East country.)