moosetracker

Guess I got some catching up to do, sorry busy day at work.. Normally my job is slow, and I have time to twiddle my thumbs as jobs run.. " Is it OK for a hospital to deny treatment, on the basis of religious beliefs, to interracial couples?" Funny - I still remember watching a show that was a historical depiction of the South during Segregation. At that time hospitals would deny treatment on a person being black, if it was a whites only hospital. Their reaction to the thought was about the same as if you brought them you dog hit by a car and expected them to him into the operating room. Don't know about interracial couples, as they would have to take them in and start the paperwork with the husband/wife sitting together. If the admission was done and then the spouse came in, it would be hard to kick them out. Anyway to Packsaddles question "The real question is for us as individuals: should our religious views trump everything else? And if not everything, then where do we draw the line?" Well that explanation is not straight forward for me. First it is not much of a religion to begin with if it teaches you to love thy neighbor, except of him, him and him (for whatever reason you fill in the blanks.) But, if the service means your heart has to be in it for the customer to get your best of your best (say wedding planner, or home decorator).. Then a white lie is ok, you have not hurt their feelings but you most likely did them a favor if it means they will find someone who can give them their best because they are not trying to get over their disgust of the person/people they need to work with.. But, if it is service that does not require detailed work (for example selling them shoes, serving them a bowl of soup, even renting them an apartment) or it is emergency service (hospital, police, fire).. Get over it and get it done.. At no time is it appropriate to be allowed to freely tell someone you will not serve them due to your religion or prejudices, where you can do it in no other manner then to be rude, belittling and hurtful. What...most fractured threads ever?! Well I think--look a bunny! I always thought the response was "Let me explain the issue of - SQUIRREL!!!...."

Horizon- Eagledad - you miss the fact that Federal taxation does not recognize gay marriage, so the tax benefits of a spouse are not there. Social Security benefits do not apply either. Horizon - I never stopped to think about it, you just roll marriage into a bundled package of what it curtails.. That makes perfect sense when you stop to think about it. Because the state has approved the right to marry, they can only approve the benefits that the state can approve. Since the federal Government has not approved it yet then the benefits that they grant will not be included. I guess as EagleDad said - the problem with your recommendation is that our law is full of various legal definitions wrapped around the word marriage. Is true, takes a while to unravel that bundle. So that would mean 3 seperate ceremonies I guess if we want to unravel it.. The religious one for God's blessing. The State one for state benefits.. And the federal one for Federal benefits.. Of course with each cerimony / contract signing someone will charge a fee for each. So the cost of getting everything one old-fashioned marriage provided, will become more costly. But still it will allow the religious conservative the opportunity to not be upset about giving a gay union some legal benefits as it is not tied to their precious marriage ceremony. And it will allow the religions that are liberal thinking the option of marrying a same-sex couple when it is not against their religious beliefs, without the religious conservatives preventing them from doing so with state/government laws.. I really think Beavah's original proposal to unravel the marriage from the state/government and taking them out of the marriage business all together is right on the money.. It solves all the problems and issues. Wonderful proposal Beavah!!

Eagledad - I agree with Scoutfish, but take it one step further. He is probably not speaking for everyone in his group either, just everyone in his inner circle.. This is what they used to push a unified mission in order to gather and control the group with. Beavah - I do think you are in a rut of trying to angle to keep things your way.. The kicking the state out of the marriage thing and just making it set by the churches didn't work out well when you have to admit they state regulations are the only thing keeping some churches from preforming the marriages, and that the legal benefits are awarded by the state/fed, and you would have to give up those being tied to a marriage ceremony all together if the state isn't involved with marriage. Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it too so you can't kick out the state and expect to keep the right of passing out state regulated benefits. So since that didn't work you are back to telling the gays they have to do whatever else they want to make up, but just not marriage.. Then it will be back to suggesting they create something united them to a man or a goat or a doorknob.. Then suggest that there union should have no legal benefits because it isn't worth the paper it is written on. Thing is, they want a marriage, with all the benefits and as far as they are concerned they really could care less if the thought of it ties you knickers up in tiny little tight knots..

I was honest with my not being sure of it and asked. Sorry for asking. After all anyone charging $10 per aspirin does not seem very non-profit to me. I see it things differently Beavah, if religion wants to do away with the state getting involved in marriage then they should. But a church only has a right to say that God Blesses the union.. Period.. They do not have a right to say the state and Federal governments will give you benifits for this marriage. So to end the partnership of church & state in marriage. The marriage is only about Gods blessing. Now anyone who wishes for a contract to state they are in a union that ties them to each other for employee benefits, Tax exemptions, and all the other goodies the state & Fed government give over a union of two people.. Will have to go down to the state house and file for it. So everyone can from now on choose to have a church wedding (religions who accept same-sex marraiges afficiating over those marriages. (A catholic Church has no rights to tell a Unitarian Church what to do.) But no one gets state, federal benifits from a religious marriage. So everyone can go to the State for a seprate contract joining them for the the union benefits. (Let them figure out if it is just between two people, or can be a group thing, or an animal human thing.) You can choose to do one or both of these types of unions. Some people may choose to just do the State binding thing. Some maybe only the God Blessing thing. Everyone is treated the same, heter-sexual and homo-sexual marriages and unions.. (Just for the marriages the homosexuals will have limited religions where they can have their ceremony.)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Kindof threw one sentence out of context.. Didn't you? I disagree with a law being passed to support this stance.. You have to widdle out of it, by a good old fashioned lie that does not insult the customer requesting your services. Umm.. about that communion is not unless you go to confession.. I have been to a catholic service that had a communion.. No one took a tally of who could partake and who could not. Everyone got up stood in line and took communion.. Even ME!!!! and I'm not catholic! No one stopped me, and everyone I was sitting with encouraged me, and I would have felt out of place not following the crowd.. But I would not let the guy put the waffer in my mouth. "Give me that I can feed myself!!" The "This is my body, This is my blood" is in other religions also

I never stated anything of the kind.. I just asked a question, which no one ever answered. Someone had a link that did state that did answer the question. So I dropped it. All I said was that I have no issue with routine service going down the street. I would only have issue if they turned away emergancy cases of people that did not meet with their moral code (such as gays), or services (such as having to abort a prenancy in order to save the life of a mother.).. Then I asked if they would, but no one responded.. TT thank you for confirmation of what I interpreted from the info in the link. Which just eluded to the fact they did have an emergency clause they had to abide by.. Yours shows they will even help when it is long term, not only for emergancies..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Oh.. nicely stated Scoutfish I don't have a problem with anyone not attending a wedding they find they don't agree with. I don't think you need to pass a law that allows you to avoid it. If you are small enough you can find a polite reason not to be available. If you are large enough, you make sure you employee enough people who are fine with it and assign them to the service. If you are fine with it, then maybe promote is not the right word, but, there are ways you can send out signals so that someone planning a same-sex marriage will know that your business will treat their special day with the attention and respect they would appreciate. Beavah writes If we feel we need to provide for other forms of life partnership, it would be more respecting of diversity and each others' values if we simply separated the state from the marriage business, eh? Marriage is somethin' certain religious sects do, the state has no business in it. Just let adults who are able to contract set up any partnership arrangements they'd like through their attorneys. Arranged partnerships, 4-way partnerships, Hollywood-style partnerships that expire in 2 months with no obligation. Whatever. Dismantle all the rest. No tax privilege, no immigration benefit, completely rework most of probate. So if Marriage is somethin' certain religious sects do, and we removed the state from it, there isn't any problem with religions that are fine with homosexual unions still preforming the ceremony. Right? I mean it is now up to the religion and their beliefs to if they will preform the union or not. Right? Remember ALL religions are not in agreement on this issue. Also I think you have it backwards. If we remove the state from marriage, and give them some other union to preform, then anyone who is in a union preformed by the state should get employee benefits for that union, tax privilege, immigration benefits etc.. Those in a religious marriage should get not state or government benefits for that union. NH was proposing that civil union thing. It is an insult to the homosexuals. To put their union on equal footing as a union between a man and his goat, or a man and a 9 year old child.. Tell them their union offers them no privileges or benefits enjoyed by a married couples. Basically a civil union had no more meaning then no union at all. Worse because going through such a sham as if this had any meaning would mean they accepted being ridiculed. Most homosexuals are fine being married by a state official. If they wish for a more religious ceremony they are fine finding a religion that will accept them. If their religion has disowned them for their lifestyle, the Unitarian Church is a great one for them, because they can join it, and still keep the religous beliefs that they were raised up to believe in.

Beavah stated I'm not a very good Catholic apologist, being as I am one of those kind-hearted humble Protestant fellows that moosetracker seems to like so much. Well, there goes the neighborhood! mark this And my mom for some reason was sent to the Catholic hospital in an emergancy.. They billed us the same way as any other public hospital.. No feeling like we walked into a charity operation, no reduced price due to the fact they aren't paying taxes.. (Do they pay taxes in their business ventures? Or hide behind their religion, and run tax free buisnesses?) Of course my Mother would be billed.. It's a business.. Of course they use a tax loop of their religion.. I am also sure there are plenty of good souls working in the Catholic Hospitals.. Just like in Scouting.. There are also groups of people shifting the numbers and playing games for the profit. Just like in Scouting. There are also horror stories that I have heard of very poor treatment (an yes I realize other places will have horror stories too..) A Catholic hospital is run by people. The good, the bad and the ugly. And yes in other countries Catholic schools do help the poor.. But we are in a discussion about the American Government and Catholic businesses. Therefore the statement was only made about American schools as our government control does not reach as far as India or Philippines.. Well this was fun.. So now that we have exhausted the topic of religion getting itself all tangled up in business, can anyone relate why this form of reasoning provides you with an arguemnet over the right of buisnesses that are not affiliated with a religion but a service industry, still being able to state religious veiwpoints as a valid reason to verbally hang up a shingle.. "Homosexuals are unwelcomed here" rather then just telling white lies about being booked for that weekend.. And why would the weddings be so abhorrent to service, but not the anniverseries, or renting an apartment to them or anything else that would force you to provide service for them.

Who has stated it is morally repugnant to be pro-life? The only statement of morally repugnant I belive comes from your side of the table.. I don't think the government is trying to force NH into a seatbelt law because it's morally repugnant to have the right to choose for yourself.. Stating you are a business, with federal aid.. Does not mean your views are morally repugnant, just not realistic in the world of business.. Our Government is known to go back on it's word. Just ask an American Indian. But if you can keep them at bay with law.. Good Luck!

So if you feel confident you will not loose if put to the test.. (and Barry could be right, it is just a scare tactic to get Catholics to vote conservative).. Then why all the theatrics?? A test to see who would come running if you cried "WOLF!!!". Or are you part of the smear campaign in order to drum up votes for a conservative candidate?

It shouldn't come out of the councils coffers. That is an expense that should be picked up by the course participants and bugeted for.. That is as essential to running the course as food and paper is.. YES!! I am surprised that it is not. Is that the same for camp director training?

As I have been stating over & over & over again.. Now you are running a business.. You mucked up and blurred the lines starting that business.. Then you received funds from the government for the business blurring the lines still further.. Your business may be run by the church, but it is not the church. If all your businesses Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc.. were declared no longer tax exempt, in order to balance the budget.. Well, I will not fight for you.. It is not the same as your religion.. It is a mucked up mess of I don't know what.

Great.. Then TT.. I will stand with what I said for Catholics with any business founded by any religion.. Protestent, Jewish, Methodist etc.. I still feel you mix buisness with religion, then don't be upset if the business end of your structure doesn't get all the benefits that your religious end of the structure does.. There so now the Catholics do not need to feel picked upon by my viewpoint.. All religions can feel picked upon.. I have not said that Catholics have to close their doors.. I have not hooted and hollered about their wealth over their buisness practices.. I have not said that in my viewpoint they have to preform abortions.. I have not said that the government is right for trying to force them to change.. I have even said that personally, I don't care that for routine procedures they choose to personally not provide abortions or hand out contraceptives. All I have said is it is a reality of buisness. All I have said is they do have choices. All I have said is Business is Business. All I have done is offer up some (I am sure not all) choices that they can make if they loose their battle, and state that the world will not come to an end if they loose their battle.. I don't see it as bashing Catholics.. I just see it as being realistic of the world around me. Now if the Government was on the Catholics Church door steps forcing them to perform homosexual marriages.. I would be on the side of the Catholic church to say that Government is stepping in where Government should not be..

So here is a suggestion.. Have your catholic doctors choose something other then becoming an Obstetrician. Few Podiatrists or Neurosurgans will be asked to perform an abortion.. Remove the Birthing wings, and specialize in things that don't involve abortions. Like your St. Judes hospital.. Because of it's specialty, why would it be forced to close it's doors? It is not a hospital that would be asked to preform an abortion.. You have choices, sell the hospitals, move into medical fields that wont put your values to the test, change the hospitals specialities, don't except federal funding. There are probably alot more choices you have.. You just don't want to look for a choice. You want it your way.. Maybe you will get it, maybe you wont. But, if you don't, you will have choices. That is all I am saying and you hopping up and down and screaming "There is no choice" "There is no choice" "It's either my way, or America is doomed!" Sorry, it is just not true.. The truth is, you don't like your other choices. If Catholic hospitals fold, and Catholic Doctors go into teaching rather then practice.. The medical schools will loosen their tight acceptance quota to train more Doctors, Government will find funding to subsidize college costs for Doctors. Someone will see profit in opening a hospital to take the place of the lost facility.. It is the American way. One man's loss is another man's gain. I never said I was pro or against government interferance.. But it is there, it is a reality, and you have to deal with it same as any other business who had dealt with government interference, because you are running a business.. But I do support government aiding green energy.. Even if we do hit a few failures, we do have to stop depending on foreign oil someday.. We will see if later down the pike, when we get success, if I will like the government payback for this funding..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

If Televangelist are protestants then I am wrong.. I flip the channel too fast on them to figure out what they are spouting off about.. I guess I am more familure with the protestants who have simple churches and whose local church is there local church, only the minister may have communication with the central office, but the normal members aren't even aware of their existance.. The local church raises any funds to build a church or add on to a church, they interveiw and select and hire their own minister, they organize the ministers house, pay his salary, and pay for the upkeeping of the church.. If they can't support their church, they either merge with another church, or share ministers (who may preach at 2 different churches at different times on Sunday.) But, you are right.. Since they are pretty much self supporting, self governing.. I guess they are the group that might allow Televangelists to run amuck, and become cult like. I am not against the Catholic religion.. And they can believe what they want to in their religion. But, if they muck up their religion with buisness I don't see why they are confused that they are treated as any other buisness would be.. (Same goes with the Televangelists too...) I am also not in favor of any religion trying to force governmental rules in favor of their religious.. Government is Government, Business is Business and religion is religion.. Once you start mucking up the whole line drawn in the sand thing, well don't be surprised if you muck it up and it doesn't always turn out to your benefit..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Maybe rather then closing them you can find a buyer for them?? Sell the business, go back to being a religion.. If there is a need for a hospital in the area, I am sure someone will buy them.. If you are next door to a public hospital, maybe not, unless someone can see turning the building into condos or something. As you say, they have stated they will shut their doors rather then accept the terms of government funding.. You may just have to do that.. I know other buisnesses that have had to close their doors due to government sanctions.. You won't be the first, you wont be the last. Most have to close their doors because the stricter rules make the business unprofitable, but closing your doors on principal is just a valid, and I am sure there is a history of businesses closing for that reason.. The benefit is you are able to sell someone else a profitable business.. Sorry, business is business.. Business is brutal and cruel and cold at times.. I can feel sorry for you though, as I have felt bad for others I know who have lost businesses.. It is an emotional decision to make..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

As stated, I personally have no problem with routine health choices that are against Catholics policy being done at the hospital/clinic down the street.. No one yet has answered my question if they will treat homosexuals or perform an abortion in order to save the life of the mother.. That is what my personal opinion would say would be wrong in the Catholics way of doing business.. But, me.. It is not my choice.. All I am saying is if you take money from the government, then the government will not be a silent partner.. And that is the way it is.. I am sure there are catholic health providers working in the public hospitals, in order to work there sometimes they will have to do their job even if it is against their beliefs. That or quit their jobs.. It's a choice.. Maybe this is a choice the Catholic hospitals need to make also.. All I can say is the Catholic church has diversified from being a religion to being a buisness by runing hospital, schools and whatever else they decided to get into buisness about.. When they crossed that line from religion to business, they are swimming with the sharks and do not have the ability to hide behind their religion status.. Oh, and by the way, Catholic schools are not for the poor. The poor tend to go to public schools.. And my mom for some reason was sent to the Catholic hospital in an emergancy.. They billed us the same way as any other public hospital.. No feeling like we walked into a charity operation, no reduced price due to the fact they aren't paying taxes.. (Do they pay taxes in their business ventures? Or hide behind their religion, and run tax free buisnesses?) Protestants have alway been a more humble, poorer religion so I could never see them diversifing into profit making businesses.. Therefore they can more easily keep the seperation of church & state.. Jewish people, have many very shrewd buisness people, but still I don't see a mix of the religion going into buisness.. So they can continue to enjoy seperation of church and state.. Catholics have chosen this path, have become very wealthy from this path, but sorry.. They are not 100% a religion, they are a buisness also and unfortunatly in doing so, not as well protected.. Sorry if that is reality, sometimes reality stinks..!! Can't have your cake and eat it too. Maybe you need to think about only operating health clinics for the poor, rather then full service hospitals.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Now that is a shock Eamonn I would have expected that the cost of the training to be the CD would have been an expense of the course.. That is like saying that we have to buy the food & not charge the participants, and we need to print out all the mega-copies, and not charge the participants.. Unless they fed you lobster and beef tenderloin, that that was over the cost of food, That is not paying your own way, that is spending your own money for a needed expense of running the course. Basement - You do two weekends for IOLS?? Normally it is Friday night, Sat, Sunday.. One weekend.. With the premeeting we end up with 4 hours before the weekend, Then Sat. and out by noon on Sunday.. We take care of two of the skills at the pre-meeting, so it isn't stretching out the time, except for travel time.

OGE : I am no hospital administrator, but my guess is a positive yes for your mother going to the Catholic hospital (as long as she is not a lesbian, in which case it is an "I'm not sure"), and a maybe she would not want to go there if she is pregnant, because I am not sure if they will inform her of all her options if some might include aborting the child in order to get the treatment..

I know huh?? Not to stereo-type them, because I know some great buisness men/women, teachers etc.. But isn't creative talent one of their cornerstones?? Sort of like men make the best chefs.. To not have enough homosexuals in something that is part of the entertainment,fashion or romance business that the homosexual community could pull from.. To not have enough homosexuals in this business that those who are straight can still work in it and not have to hob-nob with them, so that they never get over their homophobia.. What can I say.. We are deprived

Yes Baloo is top heavy in printing of copies if you go that route.. With that course I find it easier to pass out cd's to most with one or 2 handouts for people without computers.. It works out to be cheaper.. And 90% to 100% of what you pass out will not be read anyway. IOLS/OWLs I use to sweat about the break even cost until I put the burden of the meal planning and purchasing of food on the patrols.. I know syllabus says we are to give them their food.. But honestly I would either over swing or under swing with the budget when food was part of my budget. This way the participants get hand on experience with meal planning and organizing the food, and the meals will be what everyone in the patrol is happy with, and they don't run into problems of overpaying for the course, or me run into problems with underpaying for the course. I just do a pre-planning meeting that deals with the cooking & meal planning skills and gives them some patrol time to organize. Many in our council run their IOLS/OWLS the same way.

As to the question if $85 for staff is the true charge or if council is making a profit on it's staff.. I don't have a dime for dime spent.. I think it is a good price, and (shhh.. don't let anyone who sets the prices in my council see this..) Maybe underpriced.. I mean yes we do have our lunches of deli meats and bread, with cookies and apples.. But then we have our fancy meals too.. I believe we had one real nice dinner during the staff weekend (where you stay at camp for two days organizing the program).. The meals during WB are usually not outrageous but nice, with a variety of choices.. Then for staff only (while the participants are in an evening of patrol time and set up their own cracker barrel and entertainment).. The staff get our last night of the course where we have a very fancy meal with appetizers like the chocolate fountain, and shrimp and other stuff.. Then a meal of 3 types of meat, last year it was(fish, a beef, pork) and fancy side dishes.. low candle light.. waiters all high, high, elegance except the camp dishware was still camp dishware and no wine was served.. Really I didn't feel that I paid $85 and got $50 worth of food because they were skimpy on the meals.. I do know last years course director was phenomenal with how he found deals and stretched the budget.. So.. maybe.. like as scribe I would find what I thought was the cheapest price for 100 DVDs and he would insist he could find it cheaper and normally did.. Due to T-shirt costs rising (after the course price was set).. I know things were shifted to make the budget and things were tight.. Every cost cutting effort was made.. But, it wasnt in what was served or quantity of. It was more in finding the place that sold the item at the cheapest price. Also from what I have heard, if we do make a profit, all does not automatically go to the council coffers.. It goes into getting better equipment for the WB course.. Like they would like to get their own DVD burner, then constantly borrow, Copy machine, Projector etc.. And I think they can put the excess in a kitty and save up.. So like if they make a profit of $150 this year, but the DVD burner will cost $250.. The $150 is held until it accumulates.. That is not to say that the Council does not take a percentage.. They may take a percentage, then the leftover is added to saving up for items for WB.. It is just Council does not take it all.. SP.. Part of the heavy promoting is due to WB rules.. In order to run a course you must have at least 30 participants signed up 30 days before the course starts. If you don't then you must cancel the course.. That type of pressure causes heavy promotion.. Even if you only get 15 participants signing up, you don't want to cancel the course on them. And the Course Director does not want to put his staff through all the time and effort of working towards this big event to tell them they wasted their time.. It puts alot of pressure on people who do not want to let anyone down.. That pressure turns into heavy promotion to at least guarentee 30 participants, if not a full course.. If you don't get a full course, then the course director has to fire 1 or 2 Troop Guides, maybe a few other staff positions.. No one want the burden of choosing who of your 8 TG's are to be let go.. All other trainings can run with 1 or 3 participants.. WB has the burden of having to have 30 to 48 participants..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Don't get me wrong.. If they didn't charge me for my meals I would not of quibbled.. The first year I was on WB staff I was surprised by the charge, just like the OP.. If it had been the full $285 dollar charge for the course.. I may have reconcidered being on staff (although I am one who once making a committement more likely would have beat myself over the head, for accepting, and paid it because I was then committed.. But not have accepted to be on staff again.).. But since they only charged the $85 dollars and I could see it was a fair price for meals for about 10 or 11 days (6 days course other days staff meetings) + the T-shirt.. I was fine with paying.. I see it as a fair price of paying my own way, and then I gain the experience from being on staff.. I too do not saddle my District trainers with the expense.. For the Staff meals, during IOLS.. I buy the food and feed the staff out of my own pocket.. But few of my staff hangs around for the whole weekend, so normally it is my family and a guest or two for a lunch or a dinner.. For other things it is just coffee & donuts and I just buy it out of the course fees and don't nickle and dime my staff for the donut they eat.

Basement.. You have to put it in the entire context.. I said : You learn during the WB course (except for people like Basement).. Now whenever WB topic is brought up what do you say?? You definatly do not said "Had a blast, Learned a lot.." You say.. "I stinks. A waste of money.. Don't bother.." Therefore you are in the group who did not get anything out of Woodbadge..

Maybe because there are enough public hospitals around that you don't have to go to a Catholic hospital? So you don't need to create new ones.. In fact alot of agonizing over merging hospitals, due to rising health costs in our area.. I think our catholic Hospital & public hospital who are about 10 blocks from each other looked into merging, or at least specializing in different area in each one.. But, from what I can tell it fizzled due to the Catholics wanting things their way, and the public being well public, so they had to serve all of the public.. I don't, but you never know if I find myself or a loved one in one due to it being the closest in an emergancy situation. In which case, I would like them to treat me or my loved one, with respect to our beliefs.