moosetracker

There is always the odd exception, but the child must be exceptional to pull it off, is my viewpoint.. I might question a 13 yo eagle, but if he carries himself well, it will put my suspicions at rest.. But a troop who averages 13 & 14 yo eagles and pumps them out like a factory, those are the scouts I am most suspicious of. The odds of that are similar to the odds of a normal public school having 50 to 75 percent of their students being at such a high IQ that they all get into colleges around the ages of 14 to 16.. A normal troop will not get all the exceptional children of the world on their doorstep. It is just mathmatically impossible..

Plus you have to buy a whole packet which is about 50 or 100 per pack. My son got a hold of some. I think it was when he would go to a camp that was not in district as a provisional camper. Troop would give him blue cards for it, but the camp used a computerized system.. He kept the cards, and they came in handy every now and then. Don't remember what for, but nothing the troop frowned upon.. More like "Oh, you have a blank blue card? Wonderful! Where is it?" Lisabob - Yes, that was another arguement they made. We had undercover police officer and such, they did not want their name and contact info that public.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Welcome to the forum, and welcome to scouting.. Yes, scout leaders have a way of picking out their potentials. Really not a bad thing, it says alot about your good character and confidence and ability to interact with the young being easy to spot.. Just remember, if you become the DL, make sure your Den is aware up front you will not do it alone. In Tigers each tiger must have an adult parent at all times, but right away insist on an Assistant Tiger Leader.. Make sure that your group knows that upon loosing an assistant (due to their leaving the pack, or possibly them not working out as your assistant) someone else needs to step up to plate.. Also make sure you do not take a ridiculous amount into your den.. Six to eight is reasonable.. If you get into eleven, twelve... twenty, then a two dens should be formed, not your problem if a second parent will not step up.. There are on-line training videos on the role of the Den leader at myScouting.org, you are going to need to go their for youth protection training anyway, which is something you must take even to register.. You need to set up an account. You probably do not have a BSA membership number yet, and don't need it to take the training. But, after you register, wait about a month then call your Council Register, get your number and go back to enter it into your Profile. That way you will get credit for the courses you take (print out the course completion page for youth protection to attach to your application) https://myscouting.scouting.org/_layouts/MyScouting/login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2f_layouts%2fAuthenticate.aspx%3fSource%3d%252f&Source=%2f Anyway the on-line DL training is a start, but not that good.. You want to find out when the next personal Cub Scout Specific training is and take that too if you want good training (Well should be good, always depends on the quality of the trainers).. There you will get more detailed in-depth training from people who have been their rather then the video where everything runs pretty smoothly like a 1950's TV classic family show. If you love interacting with youth, you will have a great time as a DL. They have now written syllabuses where the Den meetings are pretty step by step. So time wise there is you Den meetings / Pack meeting (normally the Pack meeting replaces one den meeting within the month).. You should attend the committee meeting to know what is planned for up-comming pack meetings and events and make sure your scouts are prepared. And some yearly events & fundraisers.. First year, everything just whirls around you as new, different and strange. Second year year you start to recognize things you are repeating.. Third / Fourth year you will be ahead of the game, knowing when things are coming up and what to do, and guiding the newer Den Leaders of younger scouts. Learn to say "NO".. This is important!!.. If Den Leader you are DL, not DL, Popcorn Kernal, Blue & Gold Banquet coordinator, Pine Wood Derby coordinator.. I mean you can always lend a hand to whoever is in charge, to help set up or something.. But, other parents who are not DL's should be on the committee and offering to head up large events. When your DL your boys come first, and you can't watch them and run the big sha-bang too. Also you do not want to burn out. Some parents always say "NO" and never help out, others do not know how to say "No" and wear 50 hats.. Be in the middle, take a position, and unless it is in a small helping hand way, do not take other big jobs on also.. If your pack has too many "do-nothing" parents, they run to those they know have said "Yes" before.. The same people, over & over.. This is where you would run into trouble time wise. Good Luck, sounds like you may have years of boy scouting in your future, most will be great times, but there will be bumps and blow outs.. It is just human nature that there will be conflicts.. Hopefully you can roll with those when the occur, and continue on.

Here's a good one.. Who will we now get to pull the cub scouts chuckwagons??? Will the event now have to change so the adult leaders pull the wagons for the helpless little scouts?

Ok.. Sailingpj.. Laugh if you want.. The speed up is because the same questions are omited the 2nd time around, rather then repeated.. It was simply that our board is not made up of the same folks heading each board, they just pull in warm blooded committee members who happen to have shown up on the night in question.. So it was to make things simpler for those adults who are not so familure with sitting on a board.. Might look silly from the scouts point of view.. But truth be told some committee members are more nervous about being on a board, then the scout is about going through a board.

Thanks RichardB.. I do think the wheelbarrow or little red wagon thing is a bit excessive.. I see some rational to the power tools when you don't know the skills of the supervising adults, but would think another on-line video for supervising power tool operation, that is required of an adult leader in attendence for events with power tools could have solved some of that..

Ha.. Ha.. Beavah.. Advice would be if the CC/committee isn't in agreement with the SM then it is up to the CC/committee to discuss it with the SM as adults rather then slapping a young scout in the face, to prove a point. Also Advancment chair should have been monitoring it early on, and made notices of pencil whipping early on.. Not attempt to disrail it on the 11th hour by again slapping the Scout in the face.. Troop now has more control over the Eagle project. Perhaps they can slow things down and set up an Eagle Advisor that guarentees this scout works his Eagle project correctly with out Dad running the show. But, the Eagle Advisor should be fair enough to acknowledge and give credit to the scout if/when he does commit to running the project, rather then forcing unfair hurtles on this scout, or ignoring progress made by this scout due to orignial impressions of the scout that the Advisor is unwilling to alter if the scout starts to alter his attitude. As for the make-believe OP.. Let his scout know that his journey is his own. He should do what he needs to in order to take pride in his own path, and not worry or judge the path of others.. You learn as much from poor examples as you do from good examples.. Just know that he does not want to be like the paper eagle, nor does he want to grow up to be a father similar to this boys father. It is an important lesson learned.

Lisabob - there is a reason why the MBC list is normally not given to parents. Our District tried to put it on a web site for easy access for all and the Advancement board put up a real stink until it was removed. Some troops may be open to handing the full list out to all scouts and letting them find their own. Most troops are not.. It should be the troops call. Most troops have a system, which forces the SCOUT(not parent) to work with other adults in order to find the MBC's THAT THE TROOP RECOMMENDS.. They may recommend a few good ones, or only recommend one specific one. Handing the list out to all, means some parents do the work, right up to making the call for the scout (or do all up to handing the phone to the scout, if they have been corrected by MBC's in the past).. It also means them possibly organizing to do a MB with an MBC the troop has scratched off their list due to problems that have arisen when they worked with past scouts (too hard, too easy, never available leaving the scout hanging etc.) Having said that, I do wish I knew they were available at the council though. My son the last few months leading to his 18th birthday wanted to do an easy MB to knock off one last palm.. No one was listed for our area to do any of them.. He emailed every other district Advancement chair for a list from their district (our troop was fine with him doing so..) No one responded, and his time ran out.. Would have been nice to know he did not need to rely on the other districts Advancement chairs for the list from their district.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I always thought UC had to guide, but they could strongly guide during time of crisis. Most of the time, people don't want to be strongly guided. Maybe there are situations where they want someone to tell them what to do, but no one wants someone to blatantly try to override them. Stongly guide, is not the same as blatantly override.. It is guiding as you would do by holding a instructional supplemental training. Or either handing them the Advancement book with the important pages marked with sticky notes.. But guiding is guiding. If they don't want to learn, but want to do things their way, then that is their choice.. You can't force anyone to do what they don't want to do.. But you can enlighten them if they are making mistakes through ignorance. But, I guess not. You from what I hear here, you take notes and inform them with subtle comments if they survive the fall-out.. I guess that is why I never was impress with any UC I ever had. They were doing their jobs. Like when I was CC of a troop that only had the SM, one other parent, my husband and myself as the only unit leaders. The SM refused to listen to me, as I stated he could not sleep in a large tent all boys & adult leaders together, and refused to listen as I said that troop events were not the time to take his adult pals who had nothing to do with scouting on the trips with them so they could party, or put scouts in cars of strangers we don't know their driving background or insurance on.. It was basically a thrill for him to do everything I said he shouldn't do.. Inactive COR.. Asked the UC to get involved, and he dug his head in the sand and didn't contact us again, never answered my phone or emails.. So out family and the other committee member moved to another troop leaving the SM to be the only adult leader. Which I informed the UC & DE of, and they allowed him to run as a one man show the rest of the year.. They invoked the "Do not get involved" rule of the UC.. Similar thing happened when a Venturing Crew tried to pull all their crew members by stealing them from the Troop. No one got involved. Troop took to the challenge and wiped the crew out. Sometimes units need guidence and mediation so that they don't implode.. But I guess that is not the job of the UC.

Yes, but the "No" has to come before the POR is completed, or before the rank requirement or MB requirement or blue card is signed off etc.. Once done, if done wrong, you can not take it back.. If your scout want to get all their MB's signed off in 2 MB workshops in a span of maybe 16 hours over a two day period, with no regard to 3 month charting or any other time consuming difficult requirement, it is done.. Last I heard, doesn't matter that the SM signed his approval or not, as long as the MBC is signed it's a done deal. The best you can do at that point is show the scout the door, and tell them to find a troop that will honor that type of advancement. Just a little while ago we had people telling us that our EBOR, shouldn't visit Eagle projects, and shouldn't get involved when it was learned a scout was going to do his project with his mom and one man who had professional skills for the construction they were building, while the scout had none and was just going to follow instruction.. Not the EBOR's place to get involved.. Just pass them through, so what if they are not worthy, you have plenty of scouts not worthy of Eagle, so why worry or get involved or stop this scout from cheating the system to get the patch.. That was the message sent out from this board.

SP.. I have not gotten that opinion on this board.. From what I get from the board, the SM has the right to remove a scout from position when he is not doing the job to end the POR time table. The SM can also refuse to sign scout spirit.. He may also refuse a SM conference (but many state the time he took to say he refuses the SM conference is then the conference, so the conference is then done..) The committee has to ask weak, scout friendly questions like "do you like Scouting?" "What would you change in the troop?" etc.. Can ask some light questions about the rank, as long as it is not seen as testing the knowledge so you can ask "What was your favorite merit badge? What did you cook, when you had to be the Patrol cook?.. What was your favorite outing?.. The only way they can fail a scout, is if he is so nervous he can't answer the easiest of questions.. Some even state a lack of uniform is not a reason to postpone the board.. Really Advancement has gotten watered down, to it is very very hard to re-adjust a luke-warm, barely breathing scout, from just going through half hearted motions for an Eagle rank.. You can't do it at the SM level, or the BOR, or the Eagle project. Although I do agree some people set the bar way too hard and discouraged boys from even trying. I think we have gone to the other extreme and the bar is way too low. You barely need to lift your foot to walk over it. But, it is what it is..

Beavah wrote : Guidin' through a crisis takes an even more gentle hand, eh? And it's definitely not somethin' yeh can do if yeh know and have affinity for one of the players as in this case. I'd suggest that if yeh really feel that as a commish you can come in on a white steed to set things to rights then you're right, eh? The Commissioner Corps is not the place for yeh. You'll do a great deal of harm. I take this comment was for me.. Actually I think the Troop is doomed, but the Pack is in trouble, yet has enough involved Adults who want to turn it around. I more see trying to help grow the pack, when the troop fails, if we can get a strong Pack we can rebuild from that.. So, I was more of the opinion of just writing up.. "I tried A, B, C... They didn't pay attention.. May they rest in peace..". I just don't want to state they failed and I ignored them and let them fail.. I would like to state on the record I tried, but, I already know they will ignore anything I say. Yet you are stating I can't even guide to deaf ears, so that I can cover my own ass when they fail. This is the Troop my son attempted to be SM of. They didn't want him as he would not be a push-over. They talked someone else into the position who knew nothing.. Now I hear, after a month of being SM, he is only going to be SM to the end of the school year, and then plans to be an adult leader for the Pack. I guess he didn't know how to fight them, but was not going to be their puppet either, so he chose to walk. From what I can see the Pack has slight hope. Not many kids but for a single large Webelos group and a trickle of onesy/ twosy other people.. But, I think with the current CM, the Webelos leader and the newly resigned after 1 month in office ex-SM.. We will have enough interested Adult Leadership that is truely interested in change and improving the Pack to try to improve on it's numbers. edited to add: Beavah is correct. I am not a UC, and that was one of the first things I stated.. All I know is you are their to guide, but you can not run the show or make decisions.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Absolutely for the lower ranks that have not time required POR's and such.. Some Troops just do one BOR for both ranks, but ours did two seprated BOR's on the same night.. Each concentrating on questions asked of each rank.. Of course the 2nd one went faster, doubt he will have little to add to "What improvements would you suggest for the troop?" Or "What was your favorite troop event?" within the span of 15 minutes.

Well if Beavah view of a UC is right, then it helps me decide on my wanting to commit to being a UC of a unit that is about to be a train wreak without some strong guidence now.. Basically don't do it.. If you can't give strong guidence during a time they need it, but the long term goal plan means they will crash and burn before ever implimenting long term subtle intervention.. May as well let them crash and burn, without standing anywhere near the fall out. I always thought UC had to guide, but they could strongly guide during time of crisis.. It is just if no one cares to listen, they you let them go to their dismal doom, while writing in your little book "Hey I tried, I suggested A, B, C.. No one listened.. May they rest in peace.."

LOL Calico.. You and I crossed postings, we pretty much were in agreement.. dfolson... I am surprised by the fact he is 13.. Yes, it is possible (but IMO should be rare) and the scout has to be gung ho.. From the fact he has 13 months working POR's at life, and has had a burnout a year before where he slowed down dragged his feet and was close to dropping out.. The story-line doesn't fit the age I expected him to be.. Well it still doesn't matter, the denial from the BOR is pure hog-wash..

If I were you I would try to get a different viewpoint. Namely the current SM who did the SM review and thought him ready to go.. This has at least a potential of being an unbiased account as it is not the father nor a member from the BOR.. If he had reservations figure out why he passed him through.. Then time for the BOR members.. You can ask them where they got their "insight" on how a BOR is conducted.. At least give them the benifit of hearing them out.. I personally can not think of any good reasoning, except someone sat down and designed their own "Hard as nails" BOR rules... Also ask how many have gone through this "new" process of theirs.. Now - sit down with the SM, CC and UC (if at all active).. And tell them why the BOR is way out of line.. Should not be your duty to "rip them a new one".. (At least from my limited knowledge of a UC as an advisor, I am un-aware of a UC having that priviledge.. I would recommend those in this BOR not preside over another until they have read the guidelines for conducting one.. And verbally state where they realized they went wrong.. Then recommend a new BOR for this scout ASAP with entirely different group of committee members on the Board, after those committee members have read the outline of a BOR, what they should ask, and what they are looking for, including how little leeway they have for flunking at a BOR.. Basically the Scout would need to represent himself poorly during the board, and that is about the only time they may suggest he try again (like at the very next meeting).. Now my personal reaction... "What the ####???" When does the committee decide on very specific tasks to proclaim a job is done or not?.. As stated before if the SM thought he was not performing, then he should have replaced him.. At this time his time for POR is over, regardless of if he did a good job (minus something expected from the committee), or a losy job.. The committee at a committee meeting might bring up a concern that some scout is not performing their duties and recommend that the SM remove him. But, even still bottom line it will be the SM decision. When does the Troop Librarian or QuarterMaster need to Plan meetings or campouts. That is the job of the entire PLC.. and carrying out more falls onto the SPL, ASPL and PL's unless he is specificly tasked by the SPL for a certain trip for a certain reason. As others stated where do they get off stating he has to wait 5 months for the next BOR??

Wow! this threads been resurected a few times over.. mirinda.climer - Welcome to the forums! Hope we see you around often. I like how your group got debreifed. Sounds like they choose a good person who could calm everyone down and get everyone to "see the light". We are soon to start a Woodbadge course that I am on staff for. I hear the guy we have cominging in is wonderful with the debriefing. I missed him last year when I did it as I was scribe and was busy putting the Gazette to bed.. So I am interested to see him in action this year.. Someone on our staff stated when she was a participant, the debrief was not well done at all, because the person who did it, told the strong personalities that this game brought out their "true selfs".. So she thought if awful to tell someone you are deep down inside someone who lies and cheats to get ahead.. When she was on staff since, it was done better with, the statement that given the right circumstances we all can can go down that path.. That the game is to show (as you said), the why it can damage the scouting program, and what we want the boys to learn.. (But did not point fingers at those who stayed ultra-competitive, and state you guys are the bad guys and it's your personality so nothing will ever fix you.).. I don't know about the rest of the debreif when I was a participant.. (I was so tired, and all I wanted to do was end the game and go to bed.. Not happy about that forced cracker barrel afterward either.).. But, when she said that statement "that this game brought out their "true selfs".." That brought back memories that that was what was said when I was a participant.. I had the same reaction, that that was an awful thing to say to someone, while shining a spotlight on them in a public place.. So I think our debriefings have improved also.. How is it that other WB courses are debriefed? I am wondering if some are still using the "old" style way, if this might be what keeps the anger resonating in those who really got upset with this game.

SP - I haven't seen anyone argue you can not be a RoundTable Commissioner and Unit Commissioner at the same time.. That is not a unit leader position, and no one said UC's can not hold two different positions. There just seems to be some rule around being a unit leader.

the fact still remains that I *AM* just a parent; i.e., with no troop leadership While this is true, and you do not want to be the complaining parent, swooping in to "fix" the troop.. Think of it this way, you are no "just" the parent.. You are THE parent.. In other words, you do want to help you son make his own decisions in boy scouts, but that does not mean you can not help guiding his moral compass, just as the other adult leaders should be doing the same.. Your green card comes because you are the parent. In other words, you have always spent time guiding him to do the right thing as a father. Just because he is now in a troop does not mean you don't have a right to guide your son in defining his moral judgement. You have not lost your fatherly rights.. What you have done is entered what should be a mutual partnership where you are expecting other Scouting Adult Leaders help you with this process, and you should trust their integrity to do a good job at it.. Your confidence has been shaken.. But you do not have to hand over your child to them and turn a blind eye as they show him how to cheat the system. Having no say in how they raise your child from now on. How to get the troop on the right track, I have no idea.. You have some good suggestions from others. You also have good suggestions from others on how to guide your child to come to a moral decision.. Now if you wanted to undermine the troop so your son had it easy, then I may be saying hands-off, let the Adult leaders work with your son.. But your not, your trying to teach your child right from wrong. Anyway I just wanted to add, don't for a minute think this is not your right, or that from now on you are "just" the parent.

I prefer unit leaders being UC's of other units, over members of the unit (in any position) being UC's for their own units.. As stated in the original thread, there is concern over SM's unnaturally drawing from the cub packs they are UC's for, maybe intentionally or not but just by being the person the pack parents get familure with.. So a UC has to work hard to not have that happen, because they have to figure out how to wear two hats. As a UC they are working for the health and benefit of a different CO. Other then that, comming in with different perspectives and solving conflicts from a impartal point of view I think is impossible if you are already simply a member of the unit you are UC for.

Welcome! Glad you could join us. The only thing I will comment on (not knowing if you can or can't).. Is just make sure if the "other" units you are a commissioner on are packs with feeder troops, you do not do anything to disturb the natural flow of the packs crossing into the CO's troop.. If there is someone who just knows the CO's troop is not for them, then that is one thing to invite them to your troop, but you don't want the parents and scouts of the cub pack to move to your troop because you have set up a way they have become more familure with you then their Troop leadership. If you see that happening, you should take steps to find ways for troop & Pack to work together.. You want to keep both units of the CO (or all if they also have Venturing) healthy.

Wow !! Never thought about ever using BSA Insurance, if me or family was running around on scout buisness.. I guess it is there to use if needed, but I just always thought of it as a protection so others did not sue me personally. But, as everyone states, the tour plan is not for Insurance.. One reason why they changed the wording from "Tour Permit" to "Tour Plan".. To end the myth or scare tactics used on people to get them to file them.. Tour Plan is just to make sure you have planned out the trip with needed transportation, adult leadership, appropriate training for the event you are going on etc.. For insurance to kick in you just need proof that it was a BSA activity. While the tour Plan is one type of proof, there are others.. Traveling to an BSA hosted event is good or if you are wearing scout uniform would be fine for personal travel for BSA.. Other things that may work for personal, but more for group events. Is it discussed at a troop meeting or committee meeting?.. Did you discuss it with outer Scouters in and email?.. Other things more so group related are if it is on the units calendar of events, if you organized transportation & Leadership at a scout meeting.. Collected fees for the trip.. etc..

I guess I am of the belief people need to know that they can shop around. If the troop associated with you unit is good, then I believe the people will automatically flow to it due to the familiarity and comfort of already knowing people because they crossed over before you. But, how many do we loose because they have no interest in the troop associated with their units, and do not know they can shop around? I know alot is just Webelos burnout, but I know there are some who look at what is comming next and just say "No, thank-you", when they may get excited had they visited a different unit. Also how many who join troops and get bored or discouraged with the program, just drop out, because they don't know they can go out and shop around? It really should not be a well kept secret in order to keep you cub scouts chained to your CO when it is time to move to a troop. If your troop is not interesting the scouts from your feeder pack then you should look at your program. I know there are exceptions, like the one troop who has a Unit Commissioner from another CO, who is using his job to steer the units away from their own CO's troop. But for the most part, if you run a good program then most scouts will stay due to a sense of loyalty and familiarity. But allow the ones who need a different fit to find a different home.

Hmmm.. What is the happy medium?? That is the question. Well to begin with, Boy Scouts is not a cookie cutter operation. Everyone can look at the vision, translate the vision, and walk a way with their own interpretation of the vision. So is either wrong?.. Not really.. Now for my measuring yardstick Troop #1 may be a little too guided, and Troop #2 a little to hands off. But that is my yardstick. Troop #1 the boys did run their own COH, could they have learned by not having the chairs set for Sm, ASM, SPL.. Possibly, it would have been a little embarrassing to do an oops and run to fetch them once the COH started, but they would have lived.. Could the ice cream have melted? Sure, but I think with this I would have "guided" also.. Save the irate parent who paid good time & money to bring it, to see it spoil. I think it is fine to have the awards done by the SM while everything else is by the boys, unless you have a boy awsome at it. Praising the scouts for hard work accomplished shouldn't be ignored. Troop #2 : The COH did go on, it was accomplished.. Maybe not as polished as Troop #1, but that is OK.. But, if the SM does not do the awards, more guidence should go into the boy doing the task to make sure the boys do feel recognized. The Adults talking to you afterwards, should have been done in Troop #2 as well as #1. This has nothing to do with a boy led program. Where the boys sit, may also not really qualify. For all we know both troops had discussions on where the boys sit for COH, and each choose what they do for various reasons.. Although I prefer the patrols sitting together.. Them not sitting together may not be signs of failure, just signs of preference for each group.

We had this problem early in my sons career, but OA elections changed a few years into it, that allowed more scouts could be voted in. Since then, we never had the problem, as the amount of scouts wanting to be in OA out numbered the amount of slots we could elect for.. There are other reasons that a scout may not be elected then it is because he is a jerk.. Obviously he is not the favorite of the other scouts, but it could be for reasons he may not be able to control, kids can be cruel even in a scouting program.. It may be his religion, ethnical background, a physical condition whatever that has made him an outcast. I suppose you are right, nothing can be done (at least from your side) to force the other scouts to elect him, or to let him in without being elected. I would just put the ball back into the ASM's court, is there some way he can figure out the crux of the problem and either work with the scout himself if he is doing something that aggrevates the other scouts, or work with the troop themselves so that they can see who really wants the OA positions and would become active OA members, rather then having it be a popularity vote.. I really disliked it when someone who wanted OA didn't make it, and those that did get elected, never bothered to go to the ordeal.. What a waste!