moosetracker

Welcome! Sounds like you have a great attitude, which is infectious!!! I am sure your son and your den will have a wonderful time in CS in part due to their Den Leader.. Welcome! Hope to see you around the campfire.

In cub scouting when family camping, most families share a tent. They are scraping together what they can from their own family camping, or borrowing from a neighbor who family camps. For Cubs or BS a parent can stay with their own child, but no other child (Youth protection). But for the good of the scout being excepted by their fellow scouts, it is not a very good idea. Sleeping with a scout that was not your son went against Youth protection, especially if you had them in your own sleeping bag undies or fully clothed.. Worse, Worse, Worse. Now after saying that I did know a mother who tented with her son, then sons when the younger joined during BS.. The troop really disliked it, and wanted to drum him out, worked real hard to.. But, there was something different about them. Child had anxiety attacks, whole family seemed scared. Later I found out that while they were in cub scouts a cub scout leader was arrest for a pedophile charge with the cubs. I did not know if the son was one of those cubs, but I think they were spooked for a reason.. After a few years, the boys started tenting without the parent.

Scoutfish point is mine when I stated "So are you saying a father cannot be a positive role model to his son, if he stay married to the mother?" I DO see a problem with a troop that has an all female Leadership, or even a majority female leadership.. That would hurt the reason divorced mothers would place a son into a troop for a good Male Role model. But, a sprinkling to half of female Leadership will not. The men can still portray good male role models, including being a good role model of how men interact with women without yelling, beating them up or what ever else their fathers may have done that was negative interaction with the mother, that the boy may have witnessed. The presence of a women does not negate the ability for the men to be good role models, and you do not need 100% male leaders for a boy to benifit and pick up on the influence of the male leaders.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

So are you saying a father cannot be a positive role model to his son, if he stay married to the mother?

Reason why since my Council requires OWLS (not IOLS) for Den leaders, I simply train everybody for IOLS then keep the Webs 2 hours more to do the differences of the training. And they get credit for both courses. At our Area 1 training the Regional training person said that they were back to combining OWls/ IOLS AND Baloo into one training.. But, we are not top priority.. So who knows.. And this WAS something I questioned because the last the training times said to us, was that they decided NOT to combine the trainings.. The OWLs/IOLs I have no question can/should be combined (though other DTC in my council say they don't think they should be).. I will have to see how they combine BALOO though.. Somethings the same Cooking / campfire etc.. But alot different.. the rules & regs over cub camping, Dealing with family camping and a larger range of children through siblings that could range from infant to teen, as well as discussion on how to organize your camping equipment from families while troops have the equipment (going into details on equipment like this is a tent, this is a stove..) This added combo, without adding an extra day to the training I will need to see how the accomplish this.

Basement - Our Den split up 50/50 to two different troops, then our son split to a troop no one from his den was at. All the boys stayed in scouting, and made Eagle.. Also the rule of "no women allowed" would be something that I would consider as a parent a right to direct my son to another troop (not any of the other boys mind you). But if the troop does not hold or teach the basic principles I want my son to have, then that is not a troop I would want him learning his ideas from. As a women who wants my son to learn to treat women as equals, I would not want him in a troop that did not have the same views. Because the troop they are in will have an effect on his charactor as he grows into manhood. If I did not think it would have any effect on his charator, then I probably wouldn't care. Since this has been heavily debated, I know I am not the only one who views this as an old fashioned and non-positive viewpoint.

Actually BALOO is training for needed for Pack camping.. OWLS is training the Outdoor Webloes Leader Skills training.. If it is required or not I guess depends on your council. National does not require it. Our council does, I was at an Area 1 workshop on training, and the Regional training person also said OWLS was required. I didn't have the heart to question him on it, as I had already been questioning and making comments most the day, and thought I would just let it go. Especially since when I questioned our council on it the Councils Program Director thought it WAS required per National, and I had to pull all sorts of documentation which was more showing that when National listed Required training, it was never listed, as opposed to a statment that said OWLS is not required.. Too long and complicated to try to ramble on about in a classroom setting.. And sidetracking the main discussion.

Welcome old scout. So is your son a cub or boyscout? Have you volunteered for anything helping with the unit?

Never heard of the pinestraws.. What are they?.. Our council does have camp cards. It worked fine last year, but this year they added a rule, that may kill that. Last year you took whatever cards you wanted and returned what wasn't sold, many units had just took lile 1,000 cards, and then returned 900 of them. This year they changed it that the units are on the hook to pay for all they take.. I can see both sides, but where the units where way wrong with over extimating (the printing of the cards is an expense).. I think the council way over did their fix.. I think based on last years sales people can better guesstimate, sale potential this year. Maybe something like allowing them to order only a % of what they sold last year, then if they sell all, then they can get that extra % over again.. Next year their starting order can be a little more, due to last year sales.. If they don't sell as much this year as last year, they will get less in their preorder in the future year.. Another idea is to figure the cost to produce each card, and charge the units the cost of the printing for leftovers rather then the Councils full share of the profits ($2.50, half the price of the card.) Anyway, they should find something that does not promote waste, but also does not cause the troops to fear attempting the fundraiser. I don't know, maybe this is true of selling wreaths or flower bulbs or whatnot, but I still think it will decrease the units willing to join in the fundraiser.

Here are some warning labels placed on products due to stupid people doing stupid things.. Proof positive that we should have the scouts just sit and do nothing due to the stupid people of the world. ------- Washing Machine : "DO NOT put any person in this washer" Chainsaw : "Do not hold the wrong end of a chainsaw" Oven : All ranges can tip if you or child stand sit or lean on open door Phone Book : Caution: Please do not use this directory while operating a moving vehicle" Scubbing Bubbles product : "Do not use for personal hygiene" Windsheild sunscreen product : Warning: do not drive with sunshield in place." Liquid Plummer : Warning: Do not reuse the bottle to store beverages. Windex : Do not spray in eyes. Screwdriver set : "6PCS Precision screwdriver set not to be inserted into PENIS" Curling Iron : Warning: This product can burn eyes." Curling Iron : "For external use only" Dremel Electric Rotary Tool : This product not intended for use as a dental drill. (this must have been one of our scout Eagle projects that restricted use of the Dremel tool.. Perhaps someone setup a free clinic).. Hair Coloring : Do not use as an ice cream topping. ------------ Fact is RichardB.. ANYTHING is dangerous around stupid people. If you try to age proof against stupid people NOTHING can be used by ANYONE. As stupid people come at all ages.. You will NEVER be able to protect stupid people from themselves. --- edited to add this for a reason to put age limit on wheelbarrow.. (although I think the age is wrong, should be not allowed to use AFTER the age of 16).. On a 13-inch wheel on a wheelbarrow : "Not intended for highway use." --(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

So Richard, is this just recommendations for Eagle Projects? Or will Pinewood Derbys now need to be built by parents, and is the Chuckwagon now a thing of the past (The klondike too if there is no snow, and they need to take the runners off and put wheels on)? The items you mentioned were paired with surrounding environments.. The 2 wheeled carts are paired with "on a trailor".. So you outlawed the two wheeled cart, for everything, when 99% of the time it is used on flat land. Same with pairing a ladder with up against a narrow pole, with lead paint no less.. So the ladder is now outlawed for everything.. Again I state some online video training that is manditory for someone who is supervising and Eagle project would be a better method. I agree also just outlaw the Eagle Project, or Service Projects.. Because someone might be using that age appropriate rake, near an sheer drop off cliff and fall off, Or the age appropriate shovel, and hit an underground power line. The chainsaws and reasonable power saws rules of the past, as stated, the adults could be asked to run them. With the new ridiculous list you can now assign jobs by age.. So Scouts 14years & over could use the paintbrush & wagon. Scouts 16 to 17 could us the scary leaf blower.. I "think" the 18 & up was similar to the old list which was reasonable.. And while somethings on your age appropriate list are somewhat understandable, others are ridiculous.. I think the silly ones are the ones we like to pull up to the light and poke fun at.. They are the items that will prove the point of those who state that boy scouts is for sissies.. As we treat our boys in such a manner. It may impact an Eagle project for one of those 13 yo eagles, and though less so any projects run by those under 16 if they can't use x amount of tools. If they are not age appropriate to use these tools, how can they be expected to provide LEADERSHIP to the age appropriate that can use those tools? --------- Packsaddle asked "So, does anyone think a boy would be turned down at an EBOR if he had used a prohibited tool during his (otherwise successful) Eagle project?" Now for the power tools that make sense, our Eagle Board would prefer they follow the rules. But I know they will not deny the boy their Eagle due to a mistake made at during the work days. I have known our Eagle Board to see a picture of a young scout using a hazardous tool (a power saw of some type).. They had the scout remove the picture and did the Shultz thing of "I see nothing, I know nothing.."... When the scout didn't pick up on the subtle hint and said something incriminating again.. The Board did something else silly in correcting the scout so they could play ignorant.. "I forgot what it was".. But this time the scout got it, laughed, and played along.. And the troop leader knew for next time to advise the Eagle scout a little better.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Heres a thought that Nike raised.. You can't start a troop because of not enough kids, but seems you have 5 perfectly good ghost troops already started.. Could you possibly contact the CO of a ghost troop and see if they might like some live bodies in it? Are any in a convient spot and with a CO you would not have problems with serving under?

So are you in the S. Fulton or one of the S, N, E, W districts? Probably the S, N, E, W should merge as they do look small.. But I have no real gauge to tell how small is the smallest or how big is the biggest.. I think it would be great for some new troops. Especially one that is run correctly, and can be a role model for other troops. One troop that is run wrong, or 6 on paper really means zero good troops in the area. I don't though get the Councils resistance to starting a new troop with at least National minimum of 5 scouts (and like someone said before if a district is desperate, they wave the 5 and allow it to start with 3, if there is something that shows others are soon to come from a soon-to-be crossover (which you have also..) Your Troop problem is like our districts/Council Venturing Crews problem.. But with Venturing it is the problem of getting something new started. How many Packs do you have in your district? And what caused this social norm to develop that there is no interest in continueing after BS.. I know it is now selp perpetuating by their not being any BS Troop options in the area, which feeds the concept that there is nothing after CS.. But something must have started this negative trend.. Also you mention joining a mega-troop.. Is this one of the troops that you need to travel 30 minutes for?.. By the way we did travel 30 minutes for our sons troop, but I agree, you have to have dedication to the program to do that.. Basement - "It will be adult lead" and "Other troop would not like a second scoutmaster" are two different things.. There was no mention of him being a 2nd scoutmaster for the troop. But, I did state the fact that they may only stay on until Dec. then pull out as a possible issue with the other pack. When my husband was in a Troop that only met monthly but all other weeks the patrols were expected to meet elsewhere (sort of like todays pack & den meeting model.) His father being upstairs available for guidence, and to occasionally peek in to make sure they were on task. Nor whomever else oversaw the other patrols was not each considered a ScoutMaster. Anyway it was just a suggestion to pull more from a troop that didn't even offer a full program, thereby keeping the scouts interested and motivated.. But, I did state going there knowing it would be temporary, may not be something the troop wants.. But, then a troop that runs the way they do, may not care, as by the way they run it, it seems that they really don't care about their program. A very active troop run correctly I know would have an issue with 6 scouts and their leaders "hanging" until they can start their own troop.. But, a troop that doesn't even care enough to really run the program? What are their cares? Do they really care? Any way it was just throwing out ideas like the lone Scout for a group of 6 scouts. Which for any of our districts would be enrolled new troop.. And yes a troop is better then a Lone Scout program. But if they just enroll the boys as Lone Scouts but then run a small start up troop, I don't see where the boys are going to have anything less then a small startup troop. The rest is all paperwork which to the boys will be irrelevant.

Basement - I have seen one excellent troop which once a month does not hold a troop meeting so that each patrol can meet at their own prefered location for a patrol meeting.. When my husband was in scouts his troop met once a month for a troop meeting and were expected that each patrol met each week on their own.. Husband said they met at his house in his basement, mostly unsupervised but for the adults in the upstairs. (Except they do have a story of his father coming down to catch them with the playboy magazine once..) Also many people push that patrols should have patrol outings. I do not see why a patrol outing is considered Adult run.. True, with the new rules their has to be adults along.. But they can do the 300' camping thing. Lisabob may be right, district meant school district.. That does make more sense. Think we lost our OP anyway.. But, a start of a new troop if the other troop has few outings and only meets once a month, does not seem like suspicion for Adult led.. If all our DE's were as suspicious as you guys, we would never have another new unit, while our old units slowly die off. That has no future but extinction.

As qwaze states 13 to 14 yo Eagles does not make an exceptional troop, to get that type of push it would need to be adult led, and not a well rounded program, but simply advancement driven.. Most likely also a once and done sign-off for most skills. Most boys do not mature to truely understand leadership until about 15 and working with the younger boys.. Leading your own age group who are at about the same maturity and skill level as you, does not really teach leadership.. A boy that is 13 or 14 and can lead 15 to 17 year olds and command their respect, that would be an exceptional youth.. Not everyone can acheive that. Really a public school system I think should have more opportunity to create children that are ready for early acceptance into college then a BS troop can produce 13-14 yo eagles. That is because their sole focus is on academic curriculim, and they are an adult lead organization.. So if you have a few outstanding teachers who can buckle those kids down to a zest for education, you have a shot.. And we can all root for the teachers and say "Go teacher, Go...".. Yet even with these gifted children they often go to college with the brains to excel in the curriculim there, but still not mature enough to interact with their peers socially. A Boy Scout troop has 8 methods. Advancement is only one. Other of those methods can not be achieved unless you slow down, and allow the child to cultivate like a fine wine as they learn and see things in their troop from different stages of maturity. Why don't we all just take our kids, give them one lesson on brushing their teeth, one lesson on eating healthy foods, one lesson on mannors etc.. Then dump them out into the world to fend for themselves at the age of 4 or 5 years old? Maybe because we know that most of those lessons wont take without sufficient practice and routine, becoming ingrained into your concious and unconcious.. And for the most part, that our kids need to mature to truely learn how to do for themselves.. Running them through the Character development is not found in that itemized list of advancement goals.. It is during those long talks as you sit down by the river, or hike up the mountain, or start to witness the difference in how much more mature you are to the group of in comming and how those younger ones start looking up to you, and are thrilled when you take the time to help them learn something new. When you start to care enough about others to show them the ropes, and want to be a good role-model to those who are looking up to you, rather then just looking at you as their equal.. A good Scout Master would not put false barriers in front of a child who is only focused on advancement.. But he may put barriers up for the parents who are pushing him to only focus on advancement. And he may want to talk to the scout about all he is missing out on by focusing on just one of the 8 methods, and attempt to reason with him to stop and smell the roses and enjoy the adventure and the company of those around him. If the scout does get Eagle, and then stays to enjoy scouting until 16 or so, he will then experience what he missed when he got his Eagle. So things will be lopsided then even out.. But it's is kindof a backwards process that, like when I got handed my Drivers License, and then had to have someone teach me how to drive. Sadly few young Eagles stay to get the backward education though.

Like I said, I still am in the process of understanding this all myself. I just heard enough to think they had complicated that process. I did though know, it was not up to the Eagle Board to approve use of the Scout Account, but of the troop. The troop could have a policy of using only for Events and Summer camp and not allow purchases of any type of Equipment. Or simply not agree to the funds going to the Eagle project. Still think if you are using the Scout Account for personal & Eagle project, not a good idea to start dumping the proceeds from the car wash that was promoted to be raising funds for specifically this project into it. Also still think someone on the board may be giving advice due to their troop having a specific policy that Scout accounts can only be used for approved scouting activities/items, due to the tax laws..

LisaBob & BadenP.. Great posts! I second both of those!

The Scout account is curious. I would think it would be a troop call rather then an Eagle board call. The troop should state what a scout account can be used for. I know the troops around us are trained though to make sure the money goes to things that are well defined scouting, scout camp, scout events, uniforms, Handbooks etc.. But should not allow the scout to purchase things like tents, sleeping bags or pocket knifes. Difference is the non-profit tax exempt status. You put yourself in danger of violating it for your scout unit and your charter org. if the purchases are made for items that can be used in and out of scouting.. So using your scout account money should to do a service project be OK in not disrupting the tax exempt status, but it is buying non-scouting items (Which we advise our troops not to do..) I believe this may be well intended misunderstanding.. Someone learned "use account only for scouting".. Without thinking through if these non-scouting purchases would still classify and tax-exempt purchases.. If the use of the Scout account was an after thought, it is good thinking outside the box. But if the money was placed in the scout account with the idea of using it as your banking system during the Eagle project, this is not really a good idea as you are mixing money.. What is allocated for the Service project is no longer the scouts (or if a parent donates then no longer the parents.) Or if you have a car wash, it is not the troops or the scouts.. All that money is now officially the benifactor of the Service project. So if a parent donates $300 to the project for anticipated costs, and a donation is made after that lowering the actual cost to $150, the paren does not get the $150 back. It is now money belonging to the Service project benefactor.. If any of the money in the Scout account is half Service project, and half scout personal, the mixing of the money is not good. If you want to use it, then (and you have not Eagle Board making up rules).. The best thing I would think would be to get permission from the troop, if permitted, figure out the sum you are donating to the other non-profit group, pull the money and put it into your newly setup accounting system for the service project. That way whatever is not used is then given to the other non-profit group. Of course I believe, you as a parent can state you will donate "the lumber", rather the $300 for the project (which is to buy the lumber).. And this allows you to pay either $150 to $300 for it, and keep money not spent on "the lumber".. But, it would get hairy if the scout account is used to buy "the Lumber" then "the nails", then "the pizza", and don't even think about adding to the scout account money just earned from the car wash for this service project so then you can buy a few more items.. If you do that your scout account is a really mixed mess.. Does any of that make sense?.. Or am I just rambling.. I am no accountant, and I am myself just trying to come to terms with the changes to the new Eagle project. I will not be surprised if someone were now to tell me I have it all wrong. But, this is through talking with about 3 other people on the subject and now trying to include money from a scout account into it.

Well our newbie is getting stomped upon. I will defend him (just a little).. He did state earlier I am a VERY FIRM believer that Girl Scouts for instance has fallen into this trap, and it's been my experience in recruiting for cubs and boy scouts that the girls are DYING to do the same things as boys. Shooting, camping, fishing, etc. I support that and encourage that and fight for it. So he has some weird seperation veiw (to the point of quiting if a women ever darkened his doorstep.) But he isn't a total stero-typical Archie Bunker type. There are parents who have been on this forum very upset about some troop with a No-women allowed clause.. They were worried as others stated about their son learning some mis-guided chavanistic values from such a troop. They were recommended to find a different troop. Although the boy should be part of deciding which troop they belong to, the parents do get a say in it if they feel the role-modeling values are totally contrary to what they want their boys to learn. Now I do know that BS is a group single mothers may choose to give their sons the father figure guidence. They would most probably not want a troop with a 100% female SM & ASM.. But, they have never minded a female or two in the mix. As qwase stated, if it is truely a boy run program, if the adults work to stay out of the boys way and only be their for guidence, this is really not a big concern.. Also boys on single family homes learn as much from the male/female respectful interaction, if they suffered through the parents breakup where there were fights and disrespect, this goes a long way to mending those images and giving them good role-modeling of mixed gender interaction. Don't know how you have witnessed anger from your mothers about a female ASM when you don't allow them.. There is one religion that does not allow female adult leaders in their BSA program. Not sure if that is LDS or someone else. Are you perhaps from this religion? If so you have no worries of your COR pushing a female ASM on you, and it would explain where your opinions come from. Then we will just have to respect that and agree to disagree. Otherwise you will probably get some more opinions to try to change your mind on the subject, if it is just your unfounded personal opinion. (Because we love debates, and sink our teeth into it with gusto )

Well Lone scouts is for kids too rurel to get to a troop.. The lone scout is a creative option. But, your council may have made up it's own rules about that also. I know my council was against lone scouts for a mother who was simply using it to advance her son as a helecopter parent.. We would have happily set up you Troop of 6, but if you had been only a group of 3 I think there would be no problem with your lone scout idea, because it would have a true Lone Scout Advisor that is interested in running the program right. I do not believe that there is anything against a Lone Scout Advisor taking on multiple scouts either. I am sure for a rural family with 2 or 3 sons, it has probably happened. Another idea would be to join the troop that meets once a month and never camps, request that you are assigned as a patrol because you wish to have patrol meetings on the weeks they don't meet, and patrol campouts.. But, that may hurt the other troops membership # for Journey to Excellence with you comming and leaving in Dec. But if they run their troop this way, there is no reason for them to be making J2E anyway. It is worth a discussion with your DE on it. One troop in the local area, I could see.. One troop in the district?.. That makes no sense to me either. I think you may have mis-worded that somehow. Also if your district had only one troop, they wouldn't have changed the rules to set the bar in order to start a troop making it harder to do so.. They would be begging you to start a troop. What about the boys who left the area, then tired of the drive time?. Any way to get them to be interested in joining your new troop?

Well personal training using the EDGE method is always the best practice. But for those who prefer convience, they probably should also put out some on-line training on it also.

Well at least you & I agree that women like all that boys do.. Just your term of "Young Ladies" is such and old-fashioned term, it surfaces the image of women doing needle point and holding tea parties.. Most women would cringe at the term, just as we do with the term of Ma'am.. Perhaps as a young women growing up I had my fill of female influence and would have loved to have some male influence in my life.. Mostly women do fine with mothers, sisters, and girl friends in being able to figure out the "differences".. When having a good time, and going on adventures is not the time they want to be spent learning about being a young lady, it is time to have fun.. They are fine to just being one of the guys. Frankly boys also can use some male role models if they are without a father figure, but, if you have at least one male and possibly more, then the one female on the troop will not kill the male role model.. Unless you want to teach them how to pee on trees, swear and belch. Which really isn't quite what BSA is suppose to be teaching. If the female is adventursome and does not hold the boys back or mother them, she is excepted by the boys. I have never seen a boy upset to have a woman adult leader on the trip, especially if she happens to also be easy on the eyes.. I have only seen the complaints and arguements against it come from some of the male adults in this forum.. And only twice in our troop once when we only had one cabin for everyone, so they thought the co-ed single female would not be a good idea, and at Sea Base trip when co-ed was only allowed for Venturing Crews (although I think as the time neared and we had a problem with adult leadership we almost had it waved to have a female leader. Then we got the extra male adult.)

Sorry this happened to you. I was only a committee member but, I was the one to call attention to something similar about 3 times. The SM got so compancent about handing out projects or troop made up POR's at first he didn't realize the rule, then he just didn't put 2+2 together ie.. Not recognizing the scout was at his Life rank. From what I remember though how it is listed, it is right around where you just assume it to be the same-old-same old and don't go into deep word for word reading, but rather skim it.. Yes if all else fails get the extension. If going away to college, perhaps you can join a troop in the area and finish the job up.. I have heard the National does accept extensions when it is due to adult error.. Hopefully they will not quibble with the "you should have read it yourself".. Yes with something totally unfamilure like the Eagle project workbook, you should have read.. But with the last rank of what looks identical to the two ranks before it, you simply skim..

Wow another newbie, pulling up a long dead post.. Welcome, to the forum, and feel free to start up a new thread if you wish to discuss something.. In answer to your comment.. Easy, it is no longer the 1950's.. So find a group of young women who have the same interest as you, and be an adult leader for them (of course, similar to BS or Venturing, you would probably need at least one of the Adult leaders to be female to make sure youth protection is covered). There is no need to teach them how to be young ladies.. Sewing doilies and finding pretty pink dresses and hairbows are for a very small percentage of women these days, now adays you can find women who will love a good ballgame, tinker under the hood of a truck, and hike and backpack.. Enjoy the company of those who enjoy what you do.. Likewise a women may go out with the Boy Scouts, for youth protection reason there will be at least one adult male along. All is well with the world.

How did we move from discussing the BSA stamp of approval sexual Lifestyles, to the Presidential election?.. I missed something. Well I am also wondering how last year I missed sticking my thoughts into a topic on BSA approved (or disapproved) lifestyles also.. Hmm.. Seems to be around the time I was working hard on WB staff last year, maybe that is what had me missing out on the topic.. Maybe we can get the boys in National to put out an itemized list of approved sexual lifestyles and sexual acts, like at what age level is it appropriate to try out different positions etc. Then something like Extra marrital flings after age 25, wife swapping is only after the age of 30.. Just like the new list they put out on powertools, paintbrushes and things with wheels. Of course it would just be a guideline, mind you..