moosetracker

qwazse - Wow! and to do all that without ranking sins.. Of course you are not the one who states that Conservative Christians do not rank sin. But, if you think Christians rank sin and DLChris thinks you don't, then there is a mis-match of the minds. They drive capitalism towards pacifism. (Okay, that one's not going very well.) Now there is something to think about. You are slowly loosing your fight for social outrage at homosexuality, so the answer is to dig deeper and be more riggerous with making these homosexuals feel like outcasts.. If this is your stance on capitalism.. and you are loosing that fight, why are you not kicking out of the church those who have become wealthy off of capitalism..? Any one who works on Wallstreet or is a CEO should be denied church leadership and not allowed to be a BS Leader. At least until they repent and give up their jobs and their money.. And ...NO... the church nor Boy Scouts should be the receipient of that ill-gotten gain as it is tainted with sin.. Problem is both like $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to well themselves.. As others have said the $$$$$$$$$$ will buy acceptance regardless of the sin.

But, I am not sorry I told my dieing grandmother that she was looking well.. Nor am I sorry that I told the host of the party I went to that I enjoyed myself.. Nor, did was I really repentant when I took some scrap paper off of employee at desk A, to write a note for employee at desk B. There are things everybody does in everyday life, that you are not repentant for. For some homosexuals, they truely wish they could be normal, so much so that they may commit suicide over it. Will I commit suicide over the taking of a piece of scrap paper off of emplyee at desk A?? No, it is probably forgotten in 10 minutes tops.. Yet my lack of remorse for stealing will not keep me from a leadership position.. The fact that I may do it again the next time employee B is away from their desk when I visit, will not keep me from a leadership position.. I will not have my employeer write me countless emails about how sinful a person I am, if he comes to know I took that scrap paper. I will not get fired over taking the scrap paper. My Grandmother will not turn her back on me and disown me because I told her she was looking well on her death bed.. She may even laugh a little, and tell me what a liar I am. My friend, may already know that I did not enjoy sitting next to Old Joe, the loudmouthed womenizer during that dinner party.. But, she will still be my friend even though I told her I had enjoyed myself at the party. She wont heckle me in the hallway, and tell everyone she knows that I am a liar, and should be shunned. She wont write nasty comments about me on facebook..

Horizon - That is interesting work you do.. Sad though, I saw the gays with guns and first reaction was that I worried about their suicide rate. Not society with them with a gun, but their own personal saftey.. I know, though they can commite suicide 100 different ways, so why not arm them for protection.. DLChris - A lie is as bad as the act of murder or homosexuality. Let's see we will not allow you to be a boyscout member if you are convicted of a murder, or known to be a homosexual.. I guess if you have been found out to have lied, we should add that onto a reason for Denial into the BSA.. Can we add on thief, Adulter, divorcee, drunk and drug Abuser? Not to local CO option.. Let's make them all by National rule.. I think if nothing else knocks the membership down to zero, the liar will..Everyone has lied, even if it is those little white lies to make someone feel better. Guess what, most of us are not even repentant of some of those little white lies, it's called social manners.. (I may even admit to taking some tape or paper clips when needed, and not returning them).. As you state, all of us our sinners.. But I disagree there is not a ranking as to what is and is not a more serious sin (or crime).. I am content with our society deeming which ones are bad enough to put a person in jail, and give them a criminal record.. I am content with a criminal record being a reason not to be a BS Leader.. But, why does your religion get to rank some sins that are not criminal as worse then others? I mean, can a liar take on a leadership position in your church? If we are all sinners, and all sins are ranked equally, then you should have zero leadership in your church..

Hmmmm... You can be a Christian and be a liberal activist, and believe in equal rights for homosexuals.. Please do not lump all us Christian into your group or beliefs, it is very inaccurate.

No one is saying that DLChris.. We are saying let it be local option and up to the CO. Allowing everyones moral code, to be that in which they believe in.. A scout is reverent, which means not only following your own moral and religous code, but respecting others moral and religous codes that are different then yours.. Since BSA will not respect our different moral code, then we can not be reverent of a moral code we are forced into while not believing in it. Give us the freedom to choose, and everyone can then be respectful of everyone else differing opinion.. In other words, To each their own.. BSA doesn't force the belief in a Christian God, They don't force a belief in Christ, They don't force a belief that a divorced person is a sinner.. So when have these subjects been bandied about the forum as there being a need to change someones opinion?.. We don't we respect everyones right to their own beliefs.. Yet, until we have a freedom to choose whether same-sex couples are moral or immoral, you will have it argued and debated in these forums.

Take a look at ANY religion's history and you will find a lot of not so virtuous moments. LDS, is just as good as all the others.

DLChris - There are more then one single religion that does not view homosexuals as sinful people, and will ordain them Episcopal church, and Unitarian are two others I know of.. Others are currently debating it, since social norms are changing. Actually I didn't know of the Luthern church though.. So you added to my list, thanks. Did you know that LDS would not allow a black man to join the priesthood until 1978? They changed due to a revalation.. Perhaps, they may get a new revelation dealing with homosexuals sometime in the future (may not be very near for them though, seeing how long it took them to treat blacks as equals after the social norms had changed).

Sorry Duncan.. Yes some of us Americans have yet to come out of the dark ages, especially when a religion keeps us there.. Morally Straight as defined by "USScouts.org" & "Scoutmaster.org" To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance. and from "US Scouts.Org" means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character. But, No there is not anything about "condemn homosexuality".. (so I guess if their religious beliefs say to condemn, they condemn.. (But, then it goes against the part that says "respect and defend the rights of ALL people..) Scoutfish "I do not join a club to protest their rules and insist they change....especially when part of the clubs identity is based on the rules it has." Incorrect.. Gay bashing is not our clubs identity.. Many many people join and go for years until they find out this policy.. As stated by some scout Exec when explaining why this woman membership was revoked.. Sexual orientation is considered something that should not be discussed within Scouts, but something that should be taught at home. While I agreed with the statement, I found it out of sync with the action.. The women was not preaching her sexual orientation.. But, everyone in her Den & Pack knew about the BSA policy and learned about sexual orientation due to the actions of the Council.. I agree with everyone who says BSA will follow the money.. And that no one will ever be able to track the donations lost due to their policies, and that no one will pay out big bucks to an organization to change their veiws, much better just to ignore the organization, and donate to more worthier causes.. nldscout - Where did you read that the Bechtel family donated the Summit with "strings attached"? Not argueing, as I don't know one way or the other, but just wondering where that information comes from.

Remember my son calling me.. All tears, and scared he would be in big trouble. He had brought a travel kit nail triming set to school. At the time the nailclipper, shoehorn, comb or case were not at issue, it was the nail file (metal). I had to go to the princple to collect it.. Principle & I had a laugh over it, as he too saw it as completely innocent, but it was reported to him by some student, so he had to act on it.. Several years Later... I don't know what he worked out with the teachers later in his highschool, but most knew he had a pocket knife as did the students. So if the teachers needed something cut, they would give it to Ken, and turn their back on him.. In retrospect a really dangerous game they played. If any other student reported them, not only would son have been in trouble, but teachers may have lost their jobs over it.

I think it may depend on the size of the council also. We normally do one a year, rarely do we fill it though we have yet to have to cancel it. This year we are doing 2 (one being very specialized for LDS (no Sundays) plus people who can't not go during the normal Fall offering).. The normal Fall WB course director is a little nervous that we may have stolen some participants she could have gotten, and she will therefore not get enough to hold her course. I think we did good pulling our intended audience. We have 50, 38 are LDS, one is Jewish (Fall one hits on a major Jewish holiday).. The few others I know of could not attend the Fall course. For LDS, we are also pulling from surrounding councils.. Went to a Regional workshop and found most were surprised by us doing one a year, as they only offer it every 2 years.. All I can think is that while our council is large geographically, many other Councils are small.. It makes it easy for people to go out of council for woodbadge.. So if 3 Councils that are 50 miles apart from each other all hold WB yearly, they are all competing with one another for participants. Well it's a theory anyway.

Oh yeah, Eamonn answered the question more correctly.. National BSA will not kick you out and those on National payroll are professional, and realize their stance is not the worlds stance. They will welcome you. I was more thinking of individual scouting units you meet up with. And considering some topics on the forum, where some troops still can show prejudice over race or females although their is acceptence in BSA.. If the Troop leaders are not good role models, it will show on the boys. Let us hope that those American troops that go know how to represent us well. Although I have heard, we have had some of our troops at other World Jamborees in other country that are not a credit to us.

It will be as individual as what you find on these forums. Though we talk about it on here, and every now and then it may be debated around the campfire.. Gay bashing is not the prime concern of BSA. Hard to say. by BSA discriminating, we do have some in our ranks who feel justified by open prejudice.. For most, who may fight to keep homosexuals out of their units, they will follow the scout law of kind and considerate.. Still many others do not agree with the policy and therefore will treat you with as much respect as anyone else. The tide is turning and at least half of their members disagree with the policy, as you can see from this forum. It is a big individual crap shoot, as to what you may find. Once you are out of earshot, I would not be surprised if you were a topic of conversation.. For those who seek change, it will be a display of how our BSA could learn from your Scouting organization.. For those against, it will be an example of why BSA is right to keep your kind out. Doesn't matter if you met up with both groups and they witnessed you doing and saying the same exact thing..

Hmmm.. Our troop even had one that revamped the scout room (which was the common room of the church).. Simply it was still not to our benefit.. For scouting the old setup was better.. But it was revamped to the way the CO wanted it.

I guess I don't see it the same way you do Basement. I see the bumper stickers what-not for gay-rights as simply a request for Equal treatment.. Same as I would veiw, a womens-rights sticker, or a racial equality sticker.. Doesn't mean they want to convert us all to women, blacks or gays.. But, to except them for who they are. I have the same respect for the athiest, who also simply wants to be treated equally. I do though see at problem with the athiests who want to stamp out religious views in everything. This is not equal rights, this is demanding that everyone follows their viewpoint and rules. If duncan is going to tell me that allowing in homosexuals means everyone must hike in highheel boots wearing a gold lemay uniform.. Well, then they would not be welcomed either.. (And before Duncan hits me, I know I depicted a sterio-type, worst case example. Probably not the homosexuals who would be interested in camping.. I simply did it to prove a point. For a homosexual that looks and acts the same as me, I have no idea what would be a secret agenda for change example.) Bottom line : I know no homosexual who wants to rid the world of heterosexuals.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I see no problem with your example LisaBob.. He led the fundraisers he planned to. (Therefore his leadership part of the project was met).. Did not produce the funds he planned to (so during the EBOR, he has something to state when asked "What did not go according to plan." But, anyone can donate, so his parents could donate the funds. As far as I am concerned parent donation isn't any worse of a "life lesson" then a parent loan. Whether scout will pay parents back or not, that I think should remain private between parent and son. If it gets entangled in the project, then someone could look at the project not being completed.. But to do that, the son would need to figure out how to pay back the loan on his own, it can not be a troop fundraiser to payback a loan on a project that has been completed. If that is what they are thinking, then the project is not completed..

As I have stated before, the only problem I see with allowing atheist in, is the fact that SOME (not all) are intolerant of those who are religious. I would not mind something similar to the Pledge, where it is acceptable for them either remain quiet for the line about God (and other scouts learn to be reverent and tolerant of their lack of belief).. Or a unit that is all athiests per their CO's veiws, simply not having the line.. But, there is too much news about groups that let athiests in only to a year later have the atheist patition for them to drop the line from the pledge, and any thing else religious in order to cater to their belief (without giving a second thought to the fact they are not being tolerent of the beliefs of those around them).. This is what will hold atheists back from being accepted in. If the homosexuals had some hidden agenda to change the Scouts then they too would have more difficulty being accepted. But, they only agenda they have is up front. That is to be accepted.

Basement - Yes and No.. It is a local decision, if your local area decides to ignore the rule. But, since the rule is in place all it takes is for someone, who disagrees with the local decision, to place a call higher up the chain, for them to come down and kick the person out.. As what happened with this Den Leader.. It only truely becomes a local decision when National respects amd accepts your decision.

Our Unitarian church is open to it also, and the Episcopalian are voting on it soon, people think it will be a favorable vote, but you can always be surprised, and everyone does foresee their side winning so it depends on who you talk to I guess.. Other Liberal churches are open to it.. We have 8 states who have accepted same-sex marriages (I believe other have civil unions.) My state is one, though they tried to overturn it just last month (and lost).. Yippee.. Doesn't mean they have given up trying although polls state the majority want to keep same-sex marriages. I wanted to add onto the generational thing.. If you look at how we are moving on the racial issue, which in our country had a setback due to an issue in Florida.. My mothers generation was raised predjudice, my mother made a concious effort to not raise us that way, but knew she could only change herself through constantly checking her unconcious tendandancy.. Once or twice she said something that shocked me. Like once she yelled a racial slur to some driver who almost hit her.. I was raised in a mixed generation. My mother tried to raise me without predjudice, but my generation was a mix of being racial and not being racial. I know I could never bring myself to date or marry a black due to social pressures. But, I had many friends who were black. My sister did though. And I had to talk to my mother when she called my very worried about it.. "Well Mom, you raised us not to be predjudice. I guess you did a good job." Is what I said, but I also knew she did a better job with my sister then me, because I still had some prejudice, as I would not date a black man. This current generation, I believe is much more accepting of race. But, with sexual orientation, they are where my generation was.. Homosexuals can find good friendships of people who do not care, but also can be bullied in schools.. The generation is split on how they react to it.. My generation is more accepting of it, but I think it is like my mother was with black people.. We were raised to be prejudice. So it takes us looking at things logically and meeting very nice homosexuals to see things differently.. But we still have to combat the beliefs we were raised with.. Others in my generation will not overcome the prejudice they were taught at birth, and forget teaching my mothers generation to change. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I was just going to say "ick" to pink, and state rainbow is better, then I flipped to the next page and Duncan had already done it for me. Eamonn - Doubt if a fuss from the "not so big" will make a change. Look at the Catholics fight over contraceptives in the health bill.. And that is with more the 80% or their own congragation using them and thinking it is an outdated concept. So Duncan, you are having the same battle with same-sex marriage as we are?.. Sounds like some of where you are is not much more advanced then the US.. Your Scouting has us beat, and that is because your Scouting movement did not get into bed with religion as we did.. I do think we would be further along if not for that. Our BSA works real hard to teach our scouts that they should be open to diversity.. (Then they talk about everything under the sun except for the sexual orientation and atheists which they will not tolerate.).. If pushed into a corner they may come up with something silly like we respect them, as long as they are not in our units, teaching our scouts.. Then they teach the adult Leaders that they must be role models, and young people can sense hypocracy and will not respect you for it.. Sorry, teaching acceptancance to diversity with a (lets tiptoe over these subjects) or with a (Except for these two groups).. Is Hypocrisy.. And guess what the scouts see it, and do not respect it. Doctor, heal thy self.

Welcome again Duncan! I think one of our other forum members from the UK has an assistant who is gay.. It is both a generational thing, and we are also being strangled and hogtied by the fact that they set the program up to be owned by CO's.. Most CO's are church's and just like the same-sex marriage arguement going on in our country, where some church's are not content to tend their own flock, but must try to dictate to the rest of the country, and the more liberal churchs what their opinion should be.. That same fear of not being able to control the tied of change has them forcing the BSA in a strangle hold, with threats of leaving if CO's can have a freedom to choose.. So seeing you have really been in the heart of it. Has the UK been totally open to homosexuality all your life, or did you have some battles?.. How is the Catholic Church reacting to your more accepting society? Is the UK just viewed as a lost cause, or are they trying to push the genie back into the bottle? As you can see at least their is pushing both inside and outside for a demand for change.. If not for the CO issue and the fear of loosing a big chunk of units, my guess would have been that it would have happened by now.. But, I think due to how we are set up, it will probably take a generation or two, and the loss of more & more members as each generation sees the policy as more and more unfair, to the point that the benefits do not outway the negatives. They will need to fear the loss of the whole movement one way or the other, in order for them to make the decision to do what is right.

Yeah, I would have thought you course would more be S7-425-1-12 not S7-425-12.. The -1- is indicating yours is the first course you council is holding this year. Do they remove the 1 if you only hold one every other year?.. That wouldn't make sense, it still is the first one of this year.

Great we have a few scouters from the UK.. We always love your perspective due to the way you do things differently.

I saw a video clip newscast on it.. Not sure how to link into it now.. But though I felt for the women, and whoever was representing her (someone who had just taken head position for some gay/lesbien group).. I felt they were totally out of their element taking on BSA and would be squashed like bugs.. Don't get me wrong, I will cheer for them myself, but they just seemed very naive.. They were not going to just fight for the Gay/Lesbian, but to open scouts for all includeing atheists, with a statement of, "We don't think we need to fight this in the court system, we will just talk to the BS Leaders.. After all this is the year 2012".. Okay Dokay.. Good luck with that approach!!!.. Yep, squashed like bugs.. Listening to all going on in the News on the Catholics the last two weeks, I do see why it will be hard for BS to open their doors to allowing it to be CO's choice. Catholics, have started some sort of political fight to not only control the their nuns, the voting choices of their parishioners, but also the medical decisions of non-catholics who work for them by firing them because they choose to have medical treatment they disapprove of.. I have learned great respect for the Catholic nuns, and there was one Catholic church whose father refused to hold a political campaign at his church and got a standing applause from his congregation, so I guess their may be some Catholic preists who will have my respect.. But, my opinion of the Catholic bishops & Pope, have gone downhill. (And per Beavah, there wasn't much futher they could go.. But he was wrong, because they sure slid way way down in my opion over the last few weeks.) Yep.. LDS threatens to leave if BS opens up to allowing everyone to think for themselves.. I can see the Catholics definately would leave too.. A few months ago I questioned why anyone feared a Catholic president before JFK.. Now I have learned what their fear was.. I know until this Pope is replaced, and until I see one who does not want to rule the world.. I too would fear it.

Like 5year.. Train up the board or person who is approving the project to ask the right questions and look for problems.. Church Steeple or a re-roofing project of any sort, too large a project needing professional skilled labor (although some people do re-roof their own homes, they just would need to kick themselves if it leaks).. Repainting and old building.. Did you check for lead paint?? Any lead paint and it needs to be done by a Haz-mat team.. Construction project using power saws. "Who is going to be using the power saws?" etc.. Supposibly the Tour Plan is to check that saftey has been planned out, like you have a trained person with you when rock climbing.. This should be the same for Eagle Project approval.

While your SM should back off from making a blanket statement "that parents can not fund projects". There is a time that our Eagle Board will recommend it, and I think they are correct in doing so. That is when the project itself does not show enough leadership when presented by the Scout. Without trying to figure out how to add more leadership into the project itself, by figuring out what else they can build, clear, clean whatever .. Or simply deny the scout his project and have him cool his heels another month with a better proposal.. The simplest thing is to suggest they could bring up the needed level of leadership by suggesting that the boy to hold a fundraiser or two to raise their own money for the project. If he does not care for the idea, then he can go back and rework his idea to figure out how to add in the extra leadership himself.