moosetracker

BP.. You are getting heated, and it does sound like you are against Catholics as a whole which to me is no better then the sermons and messages being sent out by the Catholic leaders for Catholics as a group to rise up and organize as a group for some political injustaces.. perdidochas stated : Whatever you want to make up is fine. You have a bone to pick with the Catholic church, and you view history through that filter. Which came after my last message, so I assume it was addressed to me.. In answer. It has nothing to do with Catholics.. The belief came from 9/11 which has it's base from Muslim Leaders twisting their religious followers in the wrong direction. Therefore, if it was the Amish were to start preaching for their people to rise up an an Amish group to protest paying taxes for governmental use of anything modern (plane flights, cars, electricity etc..), rather then talking about living peaceful, clean, religious lives. I would be concerned. I don't know if they ever employee any one outside the Amish community, but I would also be very upset if they started fireing non-Amish employees because during their free time, it was discovered he drove a car and had an apartment that had electricity. I would be concerned if as a group they protested electing any presidential canidate who campaigned using TV and radio ads.. I would be concerned with the Amish Leaders preaching to their Amish brother at their Sunday service to rise up in civil disobedience by refusing to pay their taxes as a show of protest. Now as far as the Amish being really a threatening concern, maybe not so much.. Unless someone convinced them that for the good of the cause they would need to modernize, it would be hard for them to wreak much havoch in the modern world. But I would be equally upset about the message to rise up and protest the Amish were now getting at their Sunday service, and the fact that this was not at all what the Amish teachings were about. I would also be upset about people the Amish hired knowing they were not Amish, then fired and did not protest the Amish ways and were respectful at work, but were fired when they did not follow the Amish ways in their private lives simply because they were casualties of protest.. It may not make sense to anyone else but me, because this is my fear. But there is something different in sending a postive message to your congregation and going out to educate ANYONE that will listen to a viewpoint you have with logic and reason. And of that group (which are not all of their faith, but are united with this idea) working for change in our culture or government is open to more then just their group.. Then using the pulpit and your sermons to unit the group to protest and civil disopedience. The girls Scouts is one sign of either forcing people to accept your terms or dropping them. The firing of the women for using in vitro fertilization. It's 50-50 about my reaction for firing gay people gay people really should seek employment with Catholics, if they do they better keep a very secret life style.. Anyway these type of things are pointing to an "us" verses "them" mentality..

He was religious, but he did not just try to unify those in his faith. He unified anyone who would listen.. ie.. the public, and the government. Didn't matter if they were christen, jewish, atheist, black, white.. etc.. As I said working in a group outside of your faith to produce change is fine by me.

My contention is with inciting a religious group to organize as a unified group.. Holy war is just the extreme of where it can lead.. I don't mind your personal religious views prompting you as an individual to join some group out of your religion that has some power to shift opinion. My understanding of the battle to end slavery is very different from yours Beavah.. It was those fringe liberal groups (some being liberal churches) that pushed to end slavery, and the conservative religions that fought to keep slavery alive. Being loud and obnoxious with their views until others saw the reasoning of it.. People on the North & the South pulled out thier Bibles to prove their side was on the side of the rightous, but it was not a war between the the Protestant against the Catholic churchs.. Nor could you say the Protestant church was the sole church that pushed for it.. It was brother against brother in and out of the church. You know, it was pushed by public and government.. Also as for the Gay Rights fight, it is preached by both sides in the church regardless of if you are a church for Gay Rights or not.. There is also people outside of the church who are arguing on both sides of the fence.. People are fighting the issues within their own Church denomination (brother against brother).. It is also being fought politically Given a few decades, I have no doubt it those fighting against prejudice will win, but it is not really a unified Religious effort.. You know this will be eventually won by public and government groups push.. Female equality, fought and won by women not religion. Churches promoted segregation of blacks and white.. Desegregation was not a unified church effort, but that of the public and government. Eventually once there is enough push from liberals and radicals to make a strong case that a viewpoint is the right thing to do, religions will slowly get behind it.. But, it starts with public outcry, and most the time if it goes against the chuch's traditional views, the church's will not stand behind it, unless they are liberal in belief, or slowly the majority comes around to seeing that it is the right thing to do on a more personal & individual basis.

Anyone who is involved in a holy war, feels they are either defending their religious rights or fixing a moral wrong.. The religious group will always feel they have God on their side. Rallying a religious group like it is your own personal troop is never a good thing.

Well it was more Fred who stated I grew up with a church that preached love, forgiveness, service and prayer. So you would add that yes, your church it's ok for the church to incite people for political agendas.. This is where we disagree. The effects of 9/11 affected us all. For a friend of mine, it returned her to the church. For me it pushed me away from the church. Maybe because most Holy wars are in history, and this was a wakeup that currently you can take a religious group and incite them to follow someone's (not God's) political agenda.. Using current events to drive home points, to give us role models to follow, and examples of what not to follow.. That is fine. That is gently showing people the right path, which even if they follow, they will do so in their own unique way.. Not sermons on Hell and Damnation.. But sermons to Politically incite religious groups.. At least to me is a much scarier proposition. Makes me very happy there is more and more stay-at-home Christians, athiests and agnostics as well as that those who are of an organized religion, are at least of many, many various religions..

OK.. Civil Disobedience it is.. Either way, it is not a sermon that is all about Love, Peace and forgiveness.. Sorry, my church would never tell me to follow them into civil disobedience.. As stated the last time it was discussed, churches I went to, may have called upon current news to bring the word of the bible into current relevent times.. To help guide us to do better, to use it as a lesson.. But never was it used as a political rally to insight us to stand against a group of people or a govenment. Especially in a case like this where fellow Catholic leaders are callin' him to task on their own. Would that be the ale carte Catholic, is professors for Notre Dame consider Catholic Leaders or College Leaders who may or may not be catholic (and perhaps ale carte).. Liberals are calling him to task, and some ale-carte Catholics are not to happy with him.. But, from all news reports the Catholic Church Leaders are defending the Bishops' Hitler, Stalin comment.. Calling it a Historical Reference that he need not apoligize for.. He might have gotten away with that defense if he just talked about the health care and said "these practices are similar to what was going on during the time of..." rather then "Obama's actions".. Although I disagree with his outlook.. If I had to fear a Hitler regime, the group I would fear getting unjust treatment would not be the Catholics. Luckily I think our society is too enlightened to allow it to happen.. For good or bad, we are more quick to call each other out, and keep each other in check..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I agree with Packsaddle about the Might makes Right.. Well mostly, it could be the majority, but it could be the wealthy also, or just the one with the muscles if it is a small fight. The forcing of the schools is interesting.. I originally thought like Beavah (only on the opposite side of the fence) as in sarcastically thinking "Gee.. Thanks Merlyn".. But Packsaddle has a point to.. In order to keep the schools, all BSA needed to do was allow it to be CO's descretion.. They did not.. Was it because it by then became an ego thing, where they would cut off their nose to spite their face, and back down to the group that took them to court over the issue? Or was the finacial backing of LDS still more desired then keeping the chartered Org school districts?.. Or do we simply need to wait for the younger generation to come to power? Now, if we still had the schools with us, we may have had more of a nagging voice that over time would wear them down... We just will never will know. But there use to be more CO's who were on our side of the fence. Which we lost when we lost the school's support.

I didn't say they couldn't. All I said is, if you are showing fears to not have any relationships with groups that show a support for other groups you don't think your catholic CO would want you to associate with (even though that is not the main focus of their organization) you will loose out on getting to go to SOME great things.. I think I have made myself quite clear in past posts as to the fact this reference comes from the silliness of what they are questioning the GSUSA about.. And your past post where you referenced your fears, and suggested the BSA does not have any relationship to the Sierra Club.. If you can not put 2+2 together and come out with 4.. Not my problem.. As for the two sermons I mentioned, remember I did not state they were examples of Hell and damnation.. Just not sermons of love and forgiveness.. It just means Catholic sermons are not all warm and fuzzy inside.. Do not know if the boycott the government was in the news, but it was a week that all priests were to give a sermon on it.. Maybe some priest just Read the letter while others did a full sermon, maybe what I heard of it was more vocal in their condemnation then other preists? But many defenately go a sermon to stand up against the goverment, protest the government or Rally up against the government..) Here is one about the letter.. In this article.. It says "We can not, We will not comply with this unjust law." Isn't that the same as Boycott?? I mean you can't Boycott a whole government (unless you leave it), but they are saying to not follow this law, be criminally un-lawful in not following this law, (Boycott this law).. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/we-will-not-comply-catholic-leaders-distribute-letter-slamming-obama-admin-contraceptive-mandate/ My husband got his during a funeral.. You know.. So sad that so-and-so, is dead.. But the real issue is the governments attitude over health care wanting to offer contraceptions! So let me preach to you on that.. My mother-in-law got it during her normal church service.. We discussed it on a past thread in this forum.. And one or two other people said they got the same sermon.. Sounds like you too got some flavor of that sermon.. Did you truely feel the Love?? I also can find you news articles on the Bishop comparing Obama to Hitler & Stalin.. Here are a few links.. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/19/11288862-peoria-bishop-compares-obamas-actions-to-stalin-hitler?lite http://www.examiner.com/article/liberals-demand-catholic-bishop-apologize-for-comparing-obama-to-hitler-stalin http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/04/25/470325/notre-dame-professors-call-for-bishop-to-apologize-or-resign-from-notre-dame-board-for-comparing-obama-to-hitler/?mobile=nc (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Some where in the middle is the truth.. Don't know much about Hell & Damnation sermons, but I do know the two sermons that were most in the news were not preaching on "love, forgiveness, service and prayer".. That would be the boycott the government over the health care policy, and the Obama's actions to Hitler and Stalin.. But, hey if the sermon doesn't raise some eyebrows, then it really will not find it's way into becoming a news story..

Well BP.. If it was personal ex-communication, I can see even a so-so Catholic having a difficult time, even if they loved scouts.. If they were just not going to be CO of BSA anymore due to being associated to the other BSA units with heathen attitudes.. But, not personally ex-communication.. Then I would see the split of the 20% of 100% faithful following the church's opinion, while the othe 80% set up shop with the Salvation Army, or VFW and continue on with their BSA while still considering them self Catholic.

From the magazine article from the OP. To the Girl Scouts, some of the attacks seem to be a form of guilt by association. Critics contend that Girl Scouts materials shouldn't contain links to groups such as Doctors without Borders, the Sierra Club and Oxfam because they support family planning or emergency contraception. So what does this mean to the Boy Scouts?.. Either there is a double standard, or the Boy Scout troops should also think twice about all the side issues a group supports before utilizing it.. One repeated complaint, revived in February by the Catholic broadcasting network EWTN, involves an International Planned Parenthood brochure made available to girls attending a Girl Scout workshop at a 2010 United Nations event. The brochure "Healthy, Happy and Hot" advised young people with HIV on how to safely lead active sex lives. The Girl Scouts say they had had no advance knowledge of the brochure and played no role in distributing it. So what does this mean to the Boy Scouts? Either there is a double standard, or make sure that no questionable literature is passed out at a World Jamboree you attend.. Another complaint involved a Girl Scout blog suggesting that girls read an article about Chavez who is Catholic in Marie Claire magazine. Critics said the blog's link led to a Marie Claire home page promoting, among other items, a sex advice article. A suggestion in a blog ! So what does this mean to the Boy Scouts? Either there is a double standard or you should start to worry, about this forum for one thing any other person who blogs who promote things against your churchs views.. Peregrinator (this thread) 5/14/2012 As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I think one could argue that its support for "family planning" is not on the same scale as Planned Parenthood's. Nevertheless, if the BSA is going to take a truly neutral stance on the subject they probably should not have a relationship with the Sierra Club. In other words I would interpret this to mean that although you note that Sierra Clubs endorsement of family planning is not the same as Planned Parenthood.. You fear a relationship with them.. Not only that, you fear the repercussions of my unit working with the Sierra Club. And you have basically stated it would be a good idea that we boycott the Sierra Club in order to stay neutral (Psst.. which is not staying neutral, it is taking sides..) Using the Sierra Club for their real purpose, and ignoring those items that the BSA really dont get involved with is staying neutral.. In conclusion.. You worry about what side issues certain organizations have promoted, I will enjoy the main purpose that they are offering the boys. I just hope, my units enjoyment of these organizations does not come back to bite you in the tush.. But, if now you are not worried about the side issues other organizations support, well then welcome back to the fun side of scouting.. I stil hope, your enjoyment of getting out and living life, does not come back to bite you in the tush.. But, at least it will be your actions and not mine.

Are you telling me that units with Catholic CO's can't do anything fun or adventurous??.. So sad. I mean, hopefully they can go out into the woods, don't you think?.. But, if the Catholics are going to call a boycott on anything or anyone that doesn't hold their beliefs.. There will be a lot of places they can not go.. But, my CO is not Catholic, so I can go to all the places they choose to boycott.. So if Catholic units can't go due to Cape Cod to go out to Nantucket Island due to the gay community, well our units can go. If Catholic units can't go to the local climbing wall because the owners believe in birth control.. Well our units can go.. If Catholic units can't go white water rafting because the company running the expeditions, support the re-election of Obama... well our units can go..

Wheeewww I thought I smelled something..

Sure they do Tempa.. But, the only thing they can revoke is the building.. They have no other control over the situation.. Regardless of if there are Catholic girls enrolled in their program or not.. In the case of the Catholic girls, their parents who might be one of the 80% ale carte Catholics will choose to keep the girls in regardless of the fact that a troop in another town is using the Sierra Group or not. The Catholic church can preach & lecture etc.. But, the parents will be able to judge for them self who is being radical, and who is being controlling and can make their own decision. Just like I can stop going to my hairdressers because they bought a Walmart broom.. No one says I have to go to that hairdressers, or even that I ever have to cut my hair again, if I can find no hairdresser around who boycotts Walmart..

Well it's sexual harrassment, not youth protection.. So you don't call the SE and state a falsehood.. I agree with the chain of command approach. I Question also why even when going up the chain, everyone jumps from IH to SE?.. No one talks to the DE?? At least for me, maybe because I know my DE, and more people should know their DE over their SE, I would go there first unless you know your DE is an A--hole, and choose to jump over him. But, I would trust mine to figure out if it needs to be elevated.. Anyway anonymous will get you nowhere, if you are hiding then who is to trust you are telling the truth, especially if you state it happened to A, B, or C and they also are not complaining.. The best you can do is organize a group and go into complain as a group. Your name is not the single name listed on the complaint, and the more that make a stand, the more seriously the complaint will be taken. Then prepare to find someone to take the position. A women can be a cub master, this is much more accepted then a female SM.. But also if he is gone, then the guys (who I don't think much of for not wanting to confront some guy disrepecting their wife or other women, so stay home).. Can come back to the meeting, and can help out again. If not CM, then they can be a DL to replace some women who takes over for CM.. Like the old wild west.. Stand up, fight for, and take back your town! (errrr.. Pack!)

Peregrinator - As far as the Sierra Club is concerned, I think one could argue that its support for "family planning" is not on the same scale as Planned Parenthood's. Nevertheless, if the BSA is going to take a truly neutral stance on the subject they probably should not have a relationship with the Sierra Club. Who says boycotting a group whose main purpose is outdoor adventure, when the boy scouts are into outdoor adventure, due to a side issue they support, that the boy scouts do not get into, is staying neutral on the subject? That by all definition is standing up and taking a side on the issue.. In the girl scouts case, they are expected to be strong armed into supporting or boycotting everything the Catholic church is??? The Catholic church has no rights to tell a group that simply uses it's building that they have to stand up and fight on all the issues it deems they should.. Girl Scouts are not the right arm of the Catholic church.. As for Boy Scouts they can tell their own BS units that they have to miss truely exciting adventures due to their issues that everyone must agree with them, or be kicked to the curbside.. But they have no authority to tell my unit that is not run by Catholics that.. That is similar to if I wish to boycott Walmart for their employee practices. So I refuse to use my hairdressers anymore, as the broom they used to sweep up the hair was from Walmart, I refuse to allow my son to play in little leagues anymore because some of the food at their consession stand was from Walmart.. I am no longer friends with Blanche, Sam and Larry they have bought stuff from Walmart.. Today I first fired 3 people for buying from Walmart, then ended up having to quit my job, my employer bought something from Walmart, and would not return it.. How dare other people not boycott what I boycott! Basically you can boycott what you wish to. But you do not have the right to strong arm everyone around you into following suit. Well you can but don't be surprised when you alienate everyone around you. And guess what? Most people will say good riddence to you!.. (maybe my employer will even rehire those people I fired for buying from Walmart.)

Peregrinator - Probably not so much a need for alignment with the church as a wish to look for a place outside the home to hold the meeting.. Having it in your home causes problems with cramped quarters, a feeling you need to be "company" clean on a weekly basis, and normally cleanup is easier at a public place then at your home, where everyone is more likely to chip in to clean up, and it's an easy sweep and return to some protable bins.. At your house, things get pulled from all corners, and they are less likely to get them all back, or vacuum, or clean the dishes used etc.. And though it is only through the article, make it sound like the attitude is guilty until proven innocent, not the other way around. I would never go in as a parent with the attitude of guilty until proven guilty.. Also a parent I would see as the paster of the church.. Calling in the Bishop, is more like calling in the Police to investigate (or some sort of big guns)..

Though I understand, it is Sad.. Stuff is GOOD !! Well at least it solves the "Can we go here??" or the "Where can we get the Equipment to do this" and moves you quicker into the "Where do we want to go to do this??" type of questions..

I guess our Mr. Boyce will not be visiting "gay paree" anytime soon.

Peregrinator I'll add, further, that the bishops are not "attacking" the GSUSA. They are asking questions of them. Is it unreasonable for an organization to ask questions of another organization that they sponsor excerpt from article. Some of the concerns raised by Catholic critics are recycled complaints that have been denied by the Girl Scouts' head office repeatedly and categorically. It says it has no partnership with Planned Parenthood, and does not take positions on sexuality, birth control and abortion. Girl Scout leaders hope the bishops' apprehensions will be eased once they gather information. But there's frustration within the iconic youth organization known for its inclusiveness and cookie sales that it has become such an ideological target, with the girls sometimes caught in the political crossfire. Questions asked around the 1600's Goodie Hawkins claims you were seen walking past her chicken coop on the last full moon, and the next day some of her chickens stopped laying eggs.. Then last week Goodie Hawkins grew a pimple on her chin, and had an ache in her back. She knows you are now cursing her.. Did you put a curse on Goodie Hawkins and her chickens?

ScoutNut - I have been told that if the troop does not use all the money in their account by the end of the year, that they have to turn the excess over to the council.. So they can't save up for a trailer or some large item.. But, what everyone is saying, they never could have saved up for a trailer or equipment.. Not personal equipment, but for the troop.. Is that because a troop is more like a den, so that troop equipment could easily become personal gear? Yes BSA units spend money on events and awards, but alot of money goes into their equipment. BSA does the camping equipment & trailers, but Cubbers buy pinewood Derby sets, and I know some with amplifoers (maybe not needed for a small GS troop).. Large Drink Jugs, chuckwagons (ours bought popcorn machines & hotdog stands for fundraising at town events).. BSA units can fill a closet, or storage unit or someones Garage and then some!

I wouldn't do beaded necklaces to attract boys.. Maybe a small relay race, or if it needs to be sitdown, large end rolls of paper from a nearby newspaper place, then get some real cheap plastic cars, and have them draw roads and landscape on the blank paper roll, and race their cars around homemade tracks.. Something like that.

SQUIRRELL!!! Not to pull a redirect, but this news article, so states so many things we hit upon in this thread.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47409207/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/ I think the reporter tried hard to be objective, trying to show both sides of the story.. But, may lean to my side, since I do like the article.. A conservative may pull out why it is not objective. But, the churches who are for same-sex marriages, or homosexual leaders are not considered "fringe" groups as Beavah would like to state they are.. In fact they state Evangelical Lutheran Church in America as mainline.. I would also not consider the Episcopalian as fringe either (At least not in America, really don't care about other countries).. Now I knew the protestants I usually end up hooking up with, tend to be fringe Churches, normally young and liberal. But, I know others are not all fringe groups. The talks about the debates within the faiths, and that some are just ignoring thier conservative churches ruling and setting up a sort of underground system of blessing the unions.. Other things we have discussed here are hit upon in the article. If you don't read the full article.. Don't miss the last line.. Maybe because it rests on this last line alone, it may be cause for the conservative, to think it is biased.. Because it is a great parting shot for my side of the fence! (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I know the GSUSA is Council owned rather then Charter owned. I can see sleeping bags and backpacks as personal gear rather then troop gear, as the correct one can be fitted like clothing.. BSA units also can not use the money for personal gear, as it jeapordizes the non-profit standards.. But, sounds like they can not even aquire troop tents (car camping or backpacking), Troop stoves (car or backpacking) etc.. I know unused cookie money goes to the Council. But, if the Troops can not purchase troop Gear.. Then what do they do with their cookie money?.. I am sure they make better profits with that then BSA does with popcorn. It is better received, and a box is What? $3.00 or $3.50? Still affordable, not like $15 or $20 we charge. Makes me rethink my cookie purchase (although I do need to at least buy one box of thin mints)

BadenP.. Not you too!!! Hey... It's starting to get crowded in the anti-Catholic pew over here! Don't know how accurate BP is with his facts, Never heard about the homosexual Priest or money laundering thing.. Now I had heard way back when that of the faiths were clergy can marry, they are one of the top careers who will be found cheating or divorcing.. It was along time ago, so I don't know if currently that static remains true.. That is not Catholic of coarse.. It was just something that peaked my interest when I heard it, being that my father & mother were divorced, him being a protestant minister. It made me feel a little comfort that our family wasn't such an oddity.. Definately seems though that Catholics are on a march, maybe not quite a holy war.. But, it is some sort of cleaning house.. I just wonder who will be left in the house once they are done.