moosetracker

I think what pchadbo is looking for are suggestions on how to change the culture of a group from not getting involved, to feeling that everyone has a responsibility to do their fair share to make it work.. I am surprised SeattlePioneer has not posted.. I know he has successfully changed the culture of the unit.. But, I also know it was not overnight success. It is easy to say, get more people involved to help you.. The trick is, when they don't want to do anything, how do you encourage them to get involved.

OK.. who are all the deathbed Eagles, scewing up the numbers.. I seriously don't mind any young man taking time off then finishing up at 17.. As long as they take it seriously, and don't come back to ask you to sign him off on Leadership because he played in the HS band.. But, if he returns, at that time in his life, you at least know it is HIS idea and not his parents..

Well then I appoligize also if you were not the one who initiated the call to the DE. It was just there was no mention of it when you started posting, then you are saying you are getting off the phone after speaking to the DE.. The DE is fine to go to if a problem is serious enough, and you have voiced your concern to everyone within the unit you should, and have received no satifactory feedback. The DE is not the FIRST person to go to when their are issues within a unit, you first try to work it out within the unit (and that includes having the CO & COR knowledgable of the situation, and not reacting to the situation as serious in your opinion..) If it was someone else who jumped the chain of command and not you, and your just getting the fallback from it, that is fine. Though why the DE is involving a person not registered to the troop (know you are the CM of the Pack, but most times that doesn't mean you have a clue to what the troop is doing.).. Also normally you just discuss it with the troops key-3 and do not drag all adult Leaders and parents into the battle.. Because your troop & DE should be trying to find a way not to have it become a civil war with everyone in the troop, and have the troop self-destruct. (Though from what it sounds like this may be impossible)

To a troop that is wandering around not knowing it's left from it's right.. A person taking training and HAVING AN INTEREST IN DOING THINGS RIGHT.. Will make a very big influence on the troop (provided those not doing the program correctly are not stubborn to "doing things the way we always have done them") If you have shaken your troop in order to wake them up and get them to improve their program Wood_Owl it is to be commended.. To troops following a close semblance of the BSA program, it still is a good thing for newbies to take the training. It will bring into focus what the troop is doing and why.. why.. If they have their own practice on one or two ideas, most likely they are still not threatened, as they can discuss with you why they have altered the recommended practice and why they feel in its more beneficial to their program. For troops that are doing their own thing, know it, and do not want to follow BSA, then they would prefer no one in their troop goes to training.. Just way to hard to then brainwash them to thier way of doing things again.

Scoutnut - I thought the same thing. When concernedParent picked up the phone to call the DE, over an issue that is not a Council concern due to the boy not being registered. 1) There was nothing stated so far that advised "call the council on the matter"..Just me mentioning that "someone" might complain to council, causing a trickle down to Grandpa.. Not at all a statement of a "right" way to handle thing, more a statment of the "wrong" way things may play out.. 2) ConcernedParent stated The boy is a good kid and I personally have no problems with this 3) Sounds like a tent sleep together did not occur.. It was assumed due to the mention of an overnighter.. But, if the overnighter was involved with staying up all night does not sound like an event for "tenting together".. Nor was there any mention by the OP that the two showed outward signs of "affection". Simply people were a little concerned. For all we know they acted like two normal boys who were working at a service project. 4) ConcernedParent also stated there are things that they don't like about the troop, and have had other personal battles etc.. Just rings the DE was called due to other axes to grind, due to the other situations.. Council just does not like to get involved in internal squabbles, and will not. No point in calling them about it. It usually causes the the person council to not appreciated the caller who can't handle their own affairs, or at least work the hiearchy of who to talk to first, second, third in the correct order. nldscout - not ANY of your concern, you should not be volunteering to bud in..

Well, that is an impossible secret to keep!.. You can't keep a secret from you Grandfather, by openly sash-a-ing your boyfriend around his place of work.. If complaints are made, the COR will hear of them.. Evan if someone complains to council and he gets the trickle down effect. SMT224 - Different units have different rules. You must have two registered leaders, but many units allow unregistered parents to go, or unregistered boys who have recently aged out.. This is a more looser laid-back BS troop organization.. But it is definately out there. But, I do believe it is National police about unmarried couples not tenting together, youth or adult leaders. Then there is just an overall BSA understanding that hererosexual nor homosexual relationships have no buisness on in a BSA activity.. If your unit should tighten the rules for all concerned.. If the COR is thought to disown the Grandson when he finds out about his sexual orientation, I guess that may be your answer as to how the CO is going to react to him being at BSA events.

pchadbo states I am building the committe and trying to delegate the one-man show but it is not going swimmingly. Therefore I do not read this as pchadbo has a wonderful committee, and just can't do the committee chair position.. But he since the CC position is in getting the rest of the parents to help out and they are not, he feels this is what he is failing at.. He can not successfully run a one man show. He does not feel he has been too successful in getting parents recruited into the committee. Finding one person to become a two man show, to then hand him the job of CC so it can return to a one man show is not the answer.. It is unhealthy for the Pack to have a culture where they believe one person is suppose to do it all, and they are entitled to a smooth running pack with all the T's crossed and I's dotted.. Example of the new Pack I am to be UC for.. The CM stepped up to be CM (one person show) a month ago.. Already, a parent complained... not to the new CM (she didn't even know the person had a problem)., not to the CC.. there is no committee.. Not to the DE, Not to the DE's boss, not to his boss, but she hit the 2nd in command of the entire council to complain that her new CM was not running things as well as the old CM one man show did.. She does not do a thing for the pack.. She thinks she has the right to step all the way to the top positions in scouting to complain that her unit is not running picture perfect.. Guess what the DE did?.. Told the CM, rolled his eyes and said "I'm on your side.." "I will need to call her, but I don't deal well with entitled prema-donnas..".. edited to add: Oh yes, and the District Commissioner also enlisted me to step in and help out.. I don't deal well with entitled prema-donnas either.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

per National rules - he could not register a an adult leader.. Everything else is open to what your unit (or really the CO) is comfortable with.. Some units will welcome them as if they were registered, but know they can not register them.. Others will not welcome them or their children. If you do not welcome him anymore, then the discussion is over.. But if your unit wants to treat him fairly, then the question would be do you have other rules you enforce with straight couples, you are not enforcing with them due to the uncomfortable situation.. Then you should address it.. If you do not condone overt lovey dovy affection of heterosexual couples then same should be the expectations of a homosexual couple.. If an unmarried straight couple can not sleep in the same tent, neither the homosexual couple.. All up to your Unit and/or CO...

I just took on a UC position to a Pack with the same problems.. Our DE & Disctrict Commissioner will be visiting in the fall to kick some new parents into gear.. Here is an idea I have to kick the long-term immobile into gear.. Now what you really need is an outsider, or at least one person who is really has your perspective and is helping out, (not your planned replacement though).. I plan to borrow one of the team building excercises in the new ILST (Intro Leadership Skills for Troops).. It is for the building the boys into a team, but it is perfect for this.. Call all your parents together, for a few items to discuss, one being committee help, but try to have other things to discuss so they just don't ditch the meeting. Just before discussing the need for parents to step up to be on the committee, start out with this team buiding game.. Pre-setup: blow up lots of white balloons and have a black magic marker.. Game: You stand in the middle of the room, and your outside "friend" it the initiator.. He asks the parents what jobs need to be done to have a successful pack.. If they don't respond well enough, he should have his own list.. So he writes on a balloon with magic marker each position.. Committee Chair and tosses the baloon into you to keep in the air.. Treasurer - tosses the balloon into you. Secretary - tosses in the balloon. PopCorn Chair - tosses in the balloon.. (as you start having a difficult time he asks if you might need some help, to which you respond "Yes").. Asks one parent into the mix.. then another parent, and another .. in goes more balloons with the tasks written on them, in go more parents.. continues to call out needs.. Summer Camp organizer, Advancement coordinator, Pack trainer, Blue & gold Banquet orgaizer... on & on.. Then when full of balloons & parents.. He asks all the parents to step out, except for you.. You are left to try to keep all the balloons afloat.. (Of course many many are dropped as you can't possibly hold them all up by yourself).. Now the outside help asks the parents to give you suggestions how you are to juggle all the balloons by yourself???... I really believe this is such a visual display that will make people realize what they are asking of someone when they expect them to be a one man show.. After this you can start asking for people to step up and take on a job.. Maybe have a large easel and paper and have the jobs listed on them, go over a brief summary of the job and ask someone to step up before going on to the next job needing to be filled.

Our troop just pays for the gift(s).. one is the Frame kit to frame the eagle certificate and an extra Eagle pin (we got the shadow box). Then we retire the Troops American flag and give that to the Eagle (so we buy a new Ameican flag to replace it.).. The rest is up to the parents.. We have had parents hire out a banquet hall and cater the whole affair, and parents who have refreshments afterwards.. Normally it is a pot luck meal.. Some scouts don't get around to a ECOH, and just are handed their Eagle kits. I would suspect our troop would have picked up the Eagle Kits, but our council pays for them, I always thought National didn't charge for it.. When I found out they did, I found out that someone unknown benefactor is picking up the tab for our councils Eagles.. Around $75 to $100..

SP- has nothing to do with the ruling.. It has everything with the shift of views in society as to what is morally correct regarding the treatment of homosexuals.. It is the crack in the wall that show the wall is weakening and will eventually crumble.. Within this year you have had someone quit a council board stating publicly the reason being this policy, a National board member publically stating his disagreement with this policy, and another council BSA leader (?or ex-leader?).. What it shows is that publically BSA can not publically state they are a united front on this issue. I am sure that with each and every person within BSA that verbally comes forth to disagree, it will offer courage to others to publically state their disagreement.. The crack is now formed, now it will slowly widen until the wall can no longer stand.

Coffee of any type (with or without tabasco sauce) ewwww... ickkkkk.. Something else to disagree on(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Peach pie with tabasco sauce? ewwww... ickkkkk.. Something else to disagree on.

This is a story of the incident in the other post about the parents bringing a lawsuit, the incident happened about a year ago. At first I saw the lawsuit one, when I read this post & noticed it also was a Bear lake, but you stated it happened on Wednesday, I thought Bear Lake Campground is going to have a lot of questions to answer with two deaths related to scuba diving within a years time.. So just helping others to not be as confused as I was.

LOL - astrospartian - That was a luke warm write-up for you most favorite camp.. So what made this camp your favorite from others you went to?

Excellent Packsaddle!.. Well said.. You combined a few individuals into one.. So I just wanted to offer up the three individuals. Zach Wahls Eagle scout that carried in the patition. By all we have seen of him a fine upstanding young gentleman. Not only in how he presented himself with the patition, but their are clips of him speaking in front of the Iowa House Judiciary Committee.. Raised by two homosexuals.. Two individuals that created a loving family environment for this boy to grow up in. One he will proudly talk about to anyone who is open minded enough to listen. Jennifer Tyrrell the mother and ex-den leader of a small boy who was a cub scout. The person that the den she was den leader for welcomed her as an individual who had similar beliefs to them in wanting to raise their children with good values. Many indivual parants of many young boys, who saw this mother as a good role model for their children. Accepted her as their childs den leader and protested her removal. -- "Boo the Boy Scouts".

Well you unable to understand, that sexual orientation is not something you can learn, not something you are born with.. While most of those of us who can understand that some could be choice, but most is not.. Too many "sheltered" people who didn't know others where homosexual, and could not explain why they felt the way they do.. Of course now adays since so many homosexuals are open about it, it is hard to get these isolated souls.. But, many, many of the past.. Ignorance does not keep a homosexual straight.. Although I think divorce is too easy.. Those married & divorce within a year is ridiculous. I also belive there is need for divorce. The spouse who is abusive to their spouse, or children.. Staying together for the children while they suffer listening to the arguing and being brought up in an environment where their parents don't respect each other.. People married to someone they find out is a serial rapist or murderer.. Divorce may be bad for children, but sometimes it is better for them then the alternative. Does this have anything to do with a homosexual who wants to form a family unit with their partner and possibly one of their children, or by taking in the unwanted children of the world?.. No.. Selfish & Self-serving may be those heterosexuals or homosexuals out for sex with not commitment or responsibility.. Selfish & Self-serving does not charactorize any relationship where you care for another person deeply.. Put their well being above your own. And since homosexuals have been proven to be great parents, they are even able to care and nurture others besides their other half very successfully. Humans have become over-populated.. Sometimes Nature... Sometimes God.. will take care of that.. The homosexual may be part of God's answer to our overpopulation.. Well it is better then having a flood to wipe us all out, or destruction of the whole world.

I can live with asking a homosexual scouter to follow the same rules we give a smoker, BSA doesn't ban the smoker, they simply ask him to smoke away for children.. Most don't do that well when in crowded conditions.. They may move away from their group but in eyesight of yours.. Or outside the scout meeting, but people coming and going still see him.. The tell-tale signs of a smoker, will be similar to the tell-tale signs of a homosexual.. Sure you may see them with their partner.. But, they will not have sex at a BSA meeting, nor will they have long discussion promoting homosexual behavior, just as you will not promote heterosexual behavior during a BSA meeting.. Thing is, I raised my child with smokers around.. Yes, he did embarrass me once by walking up to a complete stranger and lecturing them on how bad smoking is for them, and they needed to quit.. Unfortunately for many homosexuality is not as easy as smoking.. It is like teaching and lecturing someone to not have freckles is going to do the trick.. But, if it makes you happy, have at it.. Perhaps you can at least lessen the effect, maybe the person who freckles can choose to live a life indoors.. But, I fear though they may not have as many freckles they still will have freckles. I am one who is born to freckle.. Don't know how I would have grown up with good self esteem is my parents told me day in and day out my freckles were a sign of the devil and that not being able to control my freckles showed my weakness to being a sinner. Love the idea that keeping me away from other people who freckle would keep me from freckling.. Even if homosexual leaders became a Local option, CO's are not going to open to open discussion about it.. The subject will be as downplayed as discussions on heterosexuality. Smokers do not hide the fact they are smokers by simply smoking out of sight of children.. Their clothes and breath still reek of smoke.. They may be seen outside the local grocery store by a scout, while smoking.. Children will know, yet can still be brought up not to smoke.. Homosexuals may raise children who are accepting of others who are homosexuals, but they do not raise their children to be homosexuals. That would be like my having a child who does not have my freckles and teaching him to have freckles. But, at least he has learned from having a mother with freckles to treat freckled people as equals and with respect. Regardless of if they choose to venture out in the sun or not.. Also if he had been one born to freckle, he would have been raised in a loving and supportive environment. He would have had a feeling of self-worth, and not choose to commit suicide over his freckles. Or commit suicide due to his weakness for wanting to do outside activities that would cause him to freckle more, when he has the choice to remain indoors all of his life. Sorry homosexuality is not a bad habit like smoking or alcohol. Keeping your child away from homosexuals will do nothing to assure they will not also be homosexual..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Happy to see he will stay in and be a thorn in their side. Unless they do something where he has to state it was HIS decision, it would be bad publicity, if they state the respect the differing views of members of their board, then can him over it..

True.. So you would be fine if one day one of those futuristic worlds are created.. Let us say if we have much worse venereal diseases then currently.. So all babies born in test tubes, no one ever is allowed to marry or love (because that would lead to sexual urges), and it becomes unlawful to have sex (heterosexual, homosexual or any other sexual) due to the dangers such relationships can cause to the extinction of mankind.. World-wide celibacy.. A primal urge can be stamped out, by just all of us going to self-control. No one will miss a thing. Maybe even the bible can add it to the "Newer then new testament".. Because God spoke to some new profit, and said.. "Sex of any type is a sin..".. While he is at it, I am sure he will have a few more things to say, so the "Newer then new testament" has some bulk to it.. Just think perfect children.. All smart, no birth defects, all with talents the world needs in-bred in them.. It will be just like ordering your burger at Burger King. The new world according to EagleDad.

Ahhhh.. The old ostrich with his head in the sand trick.. Avoiding all that is unplesent.. Yeah, you wonder why with that popular style of action at council offices they get any volunteers.. Well, if you do become a DE somewhere, remember this, and remember to call people back even if the news you have is not all that pleasent.. May not make you the most popular with the person you give the bad news too, but it will put you in a better place at least earn you the respect of your group then playing the shove the head in the sand trick will.

From what you said and others said.. A) They may want to elect their own PL. They may follow him better.. But if your troop is willing, you could still be in a very similar position as to what you have now, as a Troop Guide for the New Patrol.. You may not want to bring it up as it is almost like asking for a promotion when right now you fear your job is on the line.. B) Excessive talking is usually a sign of bordom.. Remember these are still young scouts. Do your meetings have long time periods where the troop is to quietly listen to a speaker?.. This may be a call for some change within the troop for less time with Announcements and guest Speakers.. More time with working on skills and team building challenges and getting out and doing.. C) Sounds like you are feeling pressured into getting this patrol to quiet down.. Which in turn you may be trying to accomplish it with negative reinforcement, which seems to be more direct and get results faster, unless this patrol is not effected by negative reinforcement.. It hurts their respect for you and your authority if you are constantly repeating things like "quiet down" or "shut up" and they start tuning you out.. You have to talk to them and work with them.. Treat them with respect. Ask them why they think they can not stay quiet, Based on what they think the problem is (Probably bordom, but who knows) Ask them their ideas to change the troop so they get the info they need, but in a way that does not trigger whatever the problem is.. If reasonable, (they may start out with outlandish ideas, that will take some discussion as to where some pitfalls might be..) Be their advocate and try to work the change for them if they come up with a workable solution.. For example an idea of their parents taking notes for them during announcements while they are out shooting hoops wouldn't work (you would need to look at the fact BS is where they take responsibity and become independent of their parents), but one where the announcements are on a website, and "BREIFLY" mentioned rather then spending 10 minutes on each topic, so time on announcements are cut in half or better.. might work.. Good LUCK..

Welcome.. That you are thinking of returning to the Cub Pack will be awsome for some lucky pack if you decide to do so.. Look out though.. If I was your district training Chair, and got wind of you, I might set my radar on you for the training group.. That is if you are someone who is comfortable with public speaking in small groups.. It is great to get super-knowledgeable people who know one type of unit.. But, a trainer who is knowledgable in all 3 types of units, even if not a super-knowledge of any is also someone valuable..

So you are saying your heterosexual urge is not biologically ingrained?.. You could be perfectly happy being homosexual?.. Very interesting.. Personally I know that biologically I am sexually attracted to the opposite sex.. I just can not fathom the option to "choose" to be sexually attracted to the same sex.. If I accept that I am wired that way, it is not such a difficult idea for me to understand that others are not wired the same way as I am..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Eagledad, never heard the theory that being a bully is a born trait.. But, OK.. BSA does let them in... Some people express that the youth who are bullies need scouting, when they start pulling apart the unit, we get forum questions as to how to get rid of them.. Basically it is a local decision to request the bully leave the unit or a local option of the unit to not accept the registration of a "known" bully.. But, there is no National policy against bullies.. As for pedophiles... even if it was a born trait... DUH!!!!!!!!! Again being homosexual is not a crime against children.. It does not exploit or hurt them. packsaddle.. To me really doesn't matter.. I suspect some is a choice.. But, most by choice is youthful sexual experimentation.. The majority of those if they are truly heterosexual will return to being heterosexual when they choose a permanent partner.. But, there are bi-sexuals who if they wish to settle down, will need to choose which gender.. jonathanrbaker - Very nice article. It is amazing how well homosexuals can be good productive parents! The worst they could throw at this group is those raised by same sex are On a little over half the items evaluated, they displayed more like heterosexual stepfamilies and single parents.?.. Considering the flaw in the experiment this is exceptional! The flaw they failed to mention is that the best children of this grouping ARE children who were raised by step parents, because homosexuals can never be the biological parents.. But, this is not the only group lumped into this study.. You have the adoptive child, as part of this grouping.. While a few may have had normal childhoods up to being raised by homosexuals, this would only be a small group of children raised by heterosexual parents where both died together and named a homosexual relative or friend guardian.. Then there may be some children raised by a single parent who dies and names a homosexual guardian.. But for most adoptions by homosexuals, lets us not forget the real pool of children who could be adopted by homosexuals.. Maybe some is changing now, in some states, but as it is still not considered the "ideal" home environment I doubt it.. Homosexuals do not adopt the cute newborn babies. They are only allowed the ability to adopt the "unwanted" children (if that).. Those with birth defects (normal or through parental drug abuse).. Those who had severe psychological problems either due to an abusive home, or being in the system too long.. These homosexuals take the unwanted children and give them a good home, a secure family.. Yet with this pool of the unwanted adopted children grouped into the pool of children whose step-parent is homosexual.. We get the following results "On 25 of 40 different outcomes evaluated, the children of women whove had same-sex relationships fare quite differently than those in stable, biologically-intact mom-and-pop families, displaying numbers more comparable to those from heterosexual stepfamilies and single parents." Pretty amazing and impressive.. Give credit where credit is due!! Now redo the research and compare the same-sex raised children who are now in a stepfamily due to the relationship, normal adoptions in 2nd group, 3rd group those who were "hard-to-place" adoptive children.. Now how do they compare against their similar groups of hetersexual parents? Then you can compare them to the hetersexual family unit that stays in tact, and maybe they will place lower then then idea family but my hypothisis is that broken up, most of your children with more difficulties due to their physical handicaps and psychological problems due to their history before they were adoptive will score lower with their adult lifes then the other too groups. But I would be curious toe to toe how these groups will fare when compared to their own similar groups.