moosetracker

We had a similar policy. I agree pack policy should be followed, unless the committee wishes to review the policy with the parent coming into the committee meeting to discuss why it does not apply. Perhaps if they were selling the tickets with a large sign that stated "Send ME to camp", they may have an issue.. If the sign stated "Send Our troop to camp", perhaps it should be equally divided into all boys accounts.. But, if there was no sign, I agree, the donation was not intended to go to the individual scout, but to the unit.

I know our Council only gives out one membership card, and I do know I was multi-registered. Starfish - this line worries me and I am not now nor will ever be a "quitter". I hope this does not mean you are going to continue your fight in this troop. Because the advise that is given here, that of moving to a different troop is not telling you to quit. It is telling you to take control of your life, standup for yourself and your family, and move out from an abusive situation. Consider if your son grew up and was in a job with an abusive boss. Makes him work long hours, tells him his work is worthless, threatens to fire him every week, and ridicules him around his co-workers. So if he has a family counting on his paycheck, you may not want him to quit with no new position. But, wouldn't you want him to look for another job that will be 100% better? Wouldn't you want him to be happy?.. If he found a great job, that treated him well and he had great opportunity for advancement, and was respected and appreciated for his talents.. Would you call him a quitter for leaving the first job? Leaving this troop for a better troop, one that will treat your son and his family well, is not quitting.

TwoCub- it maybe fine if you got the opportunity to do it.. I guess I just remember when son was a new scout in his first troop. They had small older boy patrols, but when the new patrol of crossovers came in they lumped them into one huge new boy patrol, of about 25 to 30 scouts.. This caused a continual battle between all the boys in this patrol of who could get up to bat to do anything for rank advancement that was patrol oriented, like cook for your patrol, or select a site for your patrol.. We were too new to question the way the troop handled the new boys. But, I still always feel there is not enough time on those type of rank advancements to wait for a boy to have the opportunity to cook 3 or 4 times. Rope tieing or hiking, fine.. But not the "For your patrol.." requirements.

Good point Scoutfish. She did mention duel registrations.. In which case if you pay registration costs and the Pack registered you, then you don't have an issue with the Troop about the any registration fees they owe you.

As someone who has moved with their son to not one, but two different troops before finding a good match, I agree.. Move.. You are getting personal pride, and maybe nostolgic history get tangled into doing the right thing for your son.. Your first son had wonderful years in this troop, but leadership has changed, and the troop is but a set of numbers and a meeting place.. The rest is it's leadership.. The boys leadership if the adult leadership will let it shine through. The adult leadership if they choose to overshadow the boys leadership.. All the events and good memories and learning and growing take place amoungst the people that form the group. Your son is not learning anything about boy leadership, self confidence, citizenship or anything else.. All he is, is a pawn in an adult war.. Not unlike what divorced parents will sometime do to their own children. But you are not tied to this troop the way two divorcing biological parents remain tied to the children between them.. You can walk away, if you swallow your pride, and your need to win, and put your son first. As someone else has stated, it will be a huge monumental weight lifted off your shoulders.. Also as others stated, enjoy being a parentor if the new troop has a need join in the committee, don't try to be an ASM. Even without your history, this is recommended of parents with new crossovers.. Allow your son to find his own wings in the new patrol and new troop, and be his own man.. Many troops do not have an open door policy to anyone being ASM if they so choose. If is more of a Selected process, so they don't have a overage of adults, that drown out the leadership of the boys. Unfortunatly what others said is correct. You made no friends by going to the DE or higher.. The COR & CO is as high as internal spats go. They can hire and fire any volunteer for any reason. But, I am surprised your DE did not explain this to you the first time you complained to him. If he did not, then him getting your repeat visits was his own fault. Your Unit Commissioner helps your unit, but also can not tell the Co or the volunteers what to do.. They can help, but are an outsider similar to the DE. If you and your husband were paying to be rechartered, and found the unit did not put you on the charter, well ask for that money back. If your unit pays the adult volunteers chartering fees, well they can cut corners & expenses and just charter bare minimum.. Happened to me in Cub scouts.. They told all of us they would take care of our charter fees.. I was on the committee the whole time my son was in Cub Scouts.. It was not until I got to boy scouts I found I was chartered the first year, and not the other years.. They chose to charter only the CC and 2 other committee members the CM & DL's.. Saved them money.. Had I known, I would have paid for myself.. From then on, I did pay for myself.

One question for twoCub.. What happens when a scout comes into your troop knowing how to cook? Do you still require he take 2 or more practice runs?.. Take my son, once upon a time (not now) he was a fantastic cook, started off alway doing Sunday breakfast, when he tired of it, he would do a weekend dinner.. His greatest feat being a beef tenderloin dinner. I never bought beef tenderloin, and thought it was similar to pork tenderloin, at about $21 a pound, I was in shock.. Brought it home, and told him to treat it like precious gold, this was the first & last time we would ever have it.. The meal was so fantastic, it made me want to reconsider buying it again.. Summer family camping the whole family took turns cooking, he cooked on the colmen, dutch ovens, open fire. Now for him to enter your troop, and be expected to take 2 practice runs at cooking before being judged would be just plain wrong.. Unfortunately he got lazy in his teen years, all he can cook now is Kraft mac-n-cheese, so you can retest him now, take his badge away from him, turn it over... What-ever.. (can you do that at 21, after they have aged out?)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

No, most likely in the 10 years since it was written, it was utilized just fine.. And was what was needed to be used on probably the very same parents who the policy was created for in the first place for the next 5 years of summer camp, if not on two or three other occasions. But now 10 years later it can be altered for this other scout due to other the factors such as possibly this other scouts dad is going to be at summer camp, or the medication has nothing to do with behavior or any other concerns of the people who will be attending, or one of the adult leaders going is a professional child behavioral specialist and is comfortable with the situation.

OK, I will accept I am wrong with calling them bylaws when they should be called policy & procedures.. But, I disagree with JMHawkins that once written, they can not be modified.. So if 10 years ago the policy is scout can not be removed from medicine for summer camp, and now you have a reason to do so, if the policy is brought up, and the SM recommends in this instance it is not applicable, then the policy is either not enforced, or changed to add in "unless those adult leaders in attendence are agreeable to it". Now if bylaws are simply when a meeting is to take place, and membership and officers.. Well, then it is pretty short and sweet, and most is already in place by the BSA guidebooks and the other half is known after a week of being a member.

If your SM signed off on your being your son's MBC for swimming, then he put faith in you to be fair. You do want to be fair with your son, and sign him off on what he accomplished.. Just as bnelon said, take some time to encourage the other scout to join in. Always let him know when you will be at the pool, and he is welcome to attend etc.. But, if your son is working hard, then it is not a requirement that the other boy advance in tandum with him or he can not advance.

Per the Advancement - (which use to be that if you were registered you were an active scout).. Now only if the troop has some sort of "The Scout meets the units reasonable expectations" otherwise the alternative is that outside activities count.. If challenged at an arbitration, the troops best defense is having those expectation written in bylaws that are easily accessable to everyone (ex. posted on a website, or passed out in the welcome package.) Is your strong Unit Leader or COR going to police the parking lot to make sure parents of cubs come to the pack meeting with their kids, or are they going to announce the Pack expects parents to attend the Pack meeting.. Is it a Pack rule? Then it is a by-law.. All by-laws are is what the unit expects from it's parents, scouts and leaders.. If you put it in writing and tell people up front this is what is expected, right when they join, then you have no arguements later on. For fundraising we always had the option of selling x amount of popcorn, or at recharter time, the cost was the recharter fee plus the amount the troop would have gotten from the profit of the popcorn.. Every year it was challenged by people who did not want to sell, or to pay.. The same people who argued over it the last year, and the year before that.. But it is in the bylaws they were handed when they joined, and verbally reminded of it at the start of popcorn season.. Scouts themselves make up rules of conduct example crews may make something up about members who are dating.. Boys in a troop may make something up about scouts who do not pay their weekly dues.. Boys in a pack may make something up about bullying.. What do you think those are???.. They are by-laws.. Does not matter if the rules is set by the COR, CM, or committee to govern the adults, or the rules are made up by the youth. They are by-laws. By-laws by the youth to goven the youth, are normally maintained by the youth.. By-laws by the SM or committee may or may not be written down.. It all depends on if you feel there will come a time that the rules will be challenged..

If the bylaws are being utilized and reviewed and kept up-to-date and pertinent, then they should be open for anyone in the troop to view.. Posted on a website if you have them.. Like the Crew21_Adv states you can't hit someone over the head for not following procedure, if the procedures remain secretive.. little johnny finishes up all requirements for Eagle scout, but not such a good attendance record.. A month befor 18th birthday, he asks for SM signature on Eagle App.. SM says "No".. you failed our super-secret attendance bylaw, that we will not let you know what it is, but you did not meet it.

Well jblake BSA may wish to instill trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, etc.. But not everyone who is registered in scouting (or has a son in scouting) follows that policy.. The Treasurer who runs off with troop funds. The parent who sold popcorn, but does not give the money from the popcorn sale to the troop. The parent who signs off on all their sons meritbadges whether they are registered as an MBC for the merit badge or not. The Adult leader who uses the committee meeting to sell insurance. The parent who drops off not only the scout but his siblings to the pack meeting and takes off, and comes to collect them an hour after the pack meeting has ended.. The parent who chooses summer camp is the best time to take their son off medication to see if he is controlable without it.

I can see EagleDad's point though.. In retrospect the mother letting people know baby can't wait and asking others their comfort level, and would they be fine with her nursing here, or prefer having a 10 - 15 minutes delay to the board, would have been polite. Same with a person having hiccups, or a person having uncontrolable coughing fits and hacking up lugies.. But, it did not happen.. Nor does everyone with the hiccups or coughing fits think to ask if they would prefer to delay 10 - 15 minutes while they get their bodily functions under control.. Write it off to the world no longer follows Miss Marbles rules of etiquette anymore.

Eagledad - I do agree that those type A personalities.. I was thinking about the personal ask.. Perhaps the type A personalities can do this successfully in a unit whose culture is currently to avoid work at all costs. Because people are convinced they can round up and persude others to help out also with their charm personality and smooze technics. The personal ask will work with non-type A personalities if the culture is already in place that most everyone will help out in on form or another. But, does the personal ask work when the culture is to avoid work at all costs and just dump everything on one unlucky soul, and the person who you dumped on is not a smoozer???.. The fear of all the other people is becoming the lonely dumpee??.. The personal ask means should you except, you may be the only other person stupid enough to allow everyone else to dump on you, then if the other person sneaks off, you will become the lonely dumpee.. Without the type A personality, wouldn't it be better to pull the group together and sell them as a group on the vision of the unit, and get people to step up together? Now rather then just doing a group ask, you can then go job by job and do a personal ask, such as we need a treasurer, John - your and accountant.. Would you be able to do that for us?.. And we need an Advancement Coordinator.. Mary you seem good with the computer, and I know you work 5 minutes from the store, so possibly could pick up awards after work.. This might be a great job for you!. But, don't you first need to get the group to feel they are not taking on the solo grunt job? You either need that personality A type, or you need the group as a whole to move together.. The "I will, if they will"..

Sounds like the new CC is a little like JMHawkins.. If the old bylaws were indeed 30 pages long, then someone did get over zealous with by laws at one time. I disagree with JMHawkins that NO bylaws are needed. Take the post still circulating about how to deal with a homosexual recently aged out Boy Scout and his boyfriend on an outing.. If the unit had by-laws against unmarried couples sleeping in the same tent, or about only registered leaders.. Or non-registered adults allowed up to x amount of times before they needed to registered to continue to go.. etc.. The unit could deal with the issue better.. Also many units need bylaws wrapped around finances, in order not to get swindled, or have people get a free ride.. But, 30 pages is excessive.. I think your CC is correct that it should be a lot shorter.. Now the question is, what is the best way to redo the bylaws?.. Hand out the old one and remake new ones from it, or start from scratch?.. Somewhere in those 30 pages may be some good bylaws created due to having been in sticky situations, where the bylaw was to prevent history repeating itself. But, looking them over may keep people from streamlining and getting rid of the excessive. Question is, is there a reason the person wanted the bylaws? Like a dispute, that the person thinks he can win by pointing to some troop bylaw?.. If the bylaws are old, and not being put in practice, then they can not win the arguement that way.. He might have a chance is the bylaws are being followed. But, it sounds like they may have been made up under the reign of a different committee, and are not in use. Bylaws are only good, if they are short and concise so that you can review them every year, and have the committee keep them useful accurate and relevant. Once they have not been looked at for 10 years and need dusting off, they are no longer the troops by-laws, but historical memories of the way things use to be.

Obviously it made you uncomfortable.. You have the right to be honest about your own feelings on the subject.. I would guess the scout may have been around more breast-feeding women then you. It does take a few experiences for most people to become comfortable with, regardless of age. If you have not had to experience it before, you are a bit uncomfortable with it. Chances are you lucked out with a scout who was able to handle it well and not be un-nerved by it.. If the board members were uncomfortable, or you fear that that the next time may not have such successful reaction from the scouts, just make sure that the board has other members able to serve until you know this woman is through with breastfeeding.. I don't think it is worth bring it up to her.. Just work around the situation, let her have this needed time with her newborn, and welcome her back to the board when she is able. Or if others on your board are like Calico, you can choose to not be on any board she is on, until you will feel comfortable about the situation.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

If they are already signed off and pull a blupper, then a simple reminder.. If they are being signed off, they they should activly look for the best spot, and be able to explain what they choose as the "best" spot and why.. So an explanation of "I know there should be no dead branches over us, but since we are camping in a pine forest with all the trees having dead branches 7 feet up, I choose this spot because, there were no large overhanging branches creaking in the wind.." or "I know we are suppose to try and find a flat surface, but the whole campsite is on a slope, so I choose this spot because, there are fewer roots and rocks, and we faced the tents in this direction so that everyone is sleeping with their heads uphill.." Things like that would be fine, but they should know why they chose the spot, and what they were suppose to be looking for, and how they compensated for not being able to find perfection. Why was this the best of limited choices. All that he can do in the piece on "Explain".. If they setup under the only tree in a meadow, when it has the dangerous overhang dead branch.. or in the one poison ivy patch.. And there are 20 other better places to set up, and they can not explain why, this spot was a better (less dangerous spot).. Then doesn't matter what rank you wish to set to the problem area, the boy failed to choose a good site..

Are you stating the majority of Scoutmasters are going to side with you and feel the scout does not need to do anything correctly just as long as he goes through the motions, Right or wrong or inbetween?.. Who is micro interpreting? You are stating that since the requirements don't state on each and every line that the requirement have to be done correctly, then they need not be done correctly..

Well second class 1b will either make him take a 5 mile hike or 10 mile bike trip.. Still could get out of it with the bike trip.. Either could be done on city streets. But, there is something besides the explain. This also may change with 2013 Advancements which are suppose to push more physical fitness. So if all there is is explain, then explain it is.. But with the food safety issue when there is an Explain & do situation to not expect the do is going to be done correctly following everything they needed to learn to explain is totally ridiculous.. This isnt even an explain in tenderfoot and a do in 2nd class.. This is a 4a 4e..

Second class 3b. On one of these campouts, select your patrol site and sleep in a tent that you pitched. Explain what factors you should consider when choosing a patrol site and where to pitch a tent. Normal factors are look up to make sure that there is nothing of danger above, look down for poision ivy, water run off areas, animal pathway of moose, bear etc.. make sure you aren't building it on an active Railroad track etc.. (It is all in the BS Handbook what they should look for). Now what is the purpose to explain to you the correct way to do it and then set their tent up on the RR track??.. Why should they need to explain to you the correct procedure? Neither the do or explain parts of this requirement state that you need to explain it correctly.. So why should anything be done correctly. If you are unsure about the correct method to use in preparing and safe handling of in order to guide your scouts, I would advise you to read the BS handbook.. In there it mentions the correct method they would like the boys to learn and use. Or is the rest of the book just emergancy toliet paper, as long as the pages with the Rank requirements are looked at.. Just like the MB book, the requirements go hand in hand with what is explained in detail in the book..

Well maybe if with prepare 3 meals for your patrol it stated next to it.. "Note - food does not have to be prepared well or safely".. I will except that.. The fire is an additional Note, due to places that have long fire-bans in place.. I would imagine if able to, the scout will not quibble over having to start the fire. Boys and fire are inseperable. But, the note is there because it is a strange thing not to expect. Someone who knows proper fire building will simply need to examine the fire he set up and decide if it is well built or not.

bnelon !!! Shame, Shame.. So you don't think that in preparing the meals it needs to be done correctly? Burnt to a crisp is ok, raw chicken is ok.. as long as the scout prepared it and served it?? Do you expect someone to do the flag ceremony correctly? Or is raising the flag upside down while everyone laughs & jokes, and taking it down and wadding it into a ball and throwing it into a corner of the room OK? As long as it is done? Just as long as after this folly of a flag ceremony, they explain to you how to respect a flag.. Perhaps when they pick a site for their tent, they can put it under the large branch about to fall, in a water runoff area.. Doesn't matter if they do it right, as long as they explain to you the factors you should consider when choosing a patrol site and where to pitch a tent. Wait a minute.. Explain does not say you have to explain correctly either!! Therefore, they get marked off for explain with any old explanation.. Doesn't need to be explained correctly either.. Make up something off the top of your head.. That's good enough. bnelon - None of the requirements state you need to do it correctly, because it is assumed the adult leaders can figure it out for themselves that what the boy does needs to be done correctly in order to be signed off. Beavah can get a little too off the beaten path with additions, but you also are off the beaten path with subtractions! Which is better? At least if I end up camping with Beavah's troop, I think I might come back alive..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I guess I see Beavah "demonstrate" parts in other parts of this advancement Requirement.. So yeah I have heard explain means explain, demonstrate means demonstrate.. I would give a little wiggle room but not too much.. But.. on this topic itself.. Let the boy explain, because the demonstrate comes in with part b of that requirement ...secure the ingredients.. And part e of that requirement ...Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup.. This is where I would look for if they secured the perishables correctly, and if they washed hands followed the "safe food handling" that they explained in part d..

Time wise. Being at the end of the school year, your normally at the end of a rank when all boys move up a rank.. So did he just sign this boy up in a spring recruitment to be a tiger next year? Or has he spent one full year as a tiger while in kindergarden.. Now you find out he will be in first grade this coming Fall? If he just signed up and will be in Kindergarden next year, don't accept the application.. Nicely but firmly state the son will have to wait until he is in first grade. If he just completed Tigers is moving into wolf but is only going into first grade?.. this is a little hazey, but I would think he may have to repeat his Tiger year, and hope that the next years Tiger leader does things differently then the first so he is not bored.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Does anyone else think something is off when you compare this post, and the post about the declining BSA scouts?.. I mean how do we get so many more eagle scouts between 2002 & 2001 and only 4% of scouts make it.. And the average age of the Eagle scout has raised for the age of 14.6 to the age of 17.1... (meaning alot more scouts for only 4% of our scouts making Eagle, they have to stay in the program longer..).. Yet from the other thread BSA's 2011 annual report shows continuing annual declines in membership and revenues. I am not a statician.. But, I just don't see these two reports jiving??.. Who is doing the creative statics??