moosetracker

No idea about the box.. But welcome..

I would venture to guess you are both right. The cub scout program on the outside seems simple, but if you look at the detail in each rank it makes my head spin, I can't imagine what new parents getting into program think.. The lack of being politically correct also hurts.. The loss of schools supporting units caused a definate hit.. So did other things not related to either.. But, Scouts Canada is doing great, as is the Scouting program in England(BBS).. Both are on an upward spiral rather then still sinking into oblivian.. It would be a good idea to look at both their programs to find out what they are doing right.. Sure both took immediate hits when it happened from those who couldn't accept change, while those who could care less, still could care less (according to some on this board, that is most of our scouts).. Don't know about Scouts Canada, but when the BBS did it, it meant it was added to the full program in one big swoop. BSA has the ability to soften this blow by simply making it the decision of local units.. So we will keep those who are fine with being able to control their little piece of the pie to keep homosexuals out.. We will only loose those who have to feel they have full control over the whole BSA program. Also, although always being anti-atheist.. It was not so for the homosexual clause. It was a local option up until the early 1990's when it was added. Had they left it local option, they would have sailed through the whole polarization without a scratch. But they chose a side, and the wrong side at that, the one that in 1990 was more popular, but now is quickly changing to now being of equal balance, soon to become the unpopular choice.. But, BSA did fine in the 1920 through the 1980's with no discriminating policy, it will take a hit removing the policy, but it never should have been added in the first place. In the meantime, there are alot of other changes that England & Canada have done that should also be looked at and analyzed to see if it would work here also. Because it is not as simple as one thing will fix it..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Plus I've yet to see a district EBOR that does any type of check that the requirements are done Well there was that one that went through every blue card checking that each MBC was valid at the time period the boy got the MB sign off.. IMO WAY TOO OVER THE TOP!!! Seriously.. You don't see it, done at the EBOR level, that is because it is done at the office when the final paperwork is turned in.. All his ranks from Scout through Life should have been recorded.. All necessary merit badges should be on record.. If not the Troop will get a call. For us it usually was a merit badge that they did not record right. Ny husband would get a copy of what the council had on the boys advancement yearly, and try to fix missing ranks or meritbadges early rather then when the boy turned in his final paperwork the day before his 18th birthday, and a week later the office is calling about missing meritbadges after the 18th birthday.. Still got hit once or twice, so then went to getting the specific boys record closer to the boys completion date, especially if he was 17+.. Hopefully a new system will not allow them to add star & life ranks while missing the first class rank (as it does now). And checks that the correct number of elective Merit badges and required Merit badges are met at each Star, Life & Eagle rank.. Never knew they ever had a council level EBOR. I have heard of the unit level ones.. Mixed feeling on it, like any change.. I have sentiments over the old way, some of the projects that come in our way too easy, and/or not correct (like one where the scout was going to raise money to go to (I think) Ireland so that he could do a certain persons ancestry research)).. I suppose it will be easer to conduct the Eagle board rather then waiting for the monthly run one..

Beavah - many councils assign a District Advisor.. In our district the scout will call if the project changes or they have a difficult question this person is their contact person. Like the thread from this week if a parent can float a loan for the project.. Sometimes my husband has gotten a call because part(or all) of a project plan got changed.. Like once a path a scout was going to clean was totally logged.. Scouts fault as he got it approved then went to do it 2 years later.. (surprise! surprise!).. Smaller changes, like my son was in a cemetery when the project was approved he was to remove moss from the stones (a small part of the overall project) then the cemetery caretaker found out it would damaged the stones so he could do the rest of the project, but not the stone cleaning.. Therefore he ran it through the district Eagle advisor who suggested adding on to another part (creating cemetary signs) to do x amount more signs. The one where the project was vandalized on the last day of work, of course the scout called the district Eagle advisor. Sure the troop may assign an Eagle Coach (or in alot of cases, not).. But, there are still times, to suggest getting advise from the assigned distict eagle advisor. I would have been surprised if on this bump in the road, the scout had not reached out to make this contact.

Yeah to Bnelon.. If this was repetitive put downs over a period of time then probably I would agree with you.. ...any behavior that is deliberate, hurtful, repeated over time... This seems to be a lash out on a single disagreement.. Also something like that took 3 seprate people making 3 seperate complaints over a period of time.. (At least per my Council..).. They don't act on verbal abuse as quickly as they do physical or sexual abuse.. I was in a troop where a scout master was removed, but the DE said he needed 3 seprate complaints, and I was complaint #1.. It took about 1.5 years and two more complaints and he was removed.. It took consistant behavior to different scouts for the council to come in to investigate.

What you have said so far I would not put as bullying either.. SM may be a control-freak, a micro-manager, rude, abnoxious.. But, I did not see bully.. But, that might be the fact that what was specifically said word for word isn't in the story.. Even if it were, we still may get the tone, body language and of course one-sided point of veiw may make it sound like bullying.. He just sounded like he got it in his head this was all about him, got his nose out of joint that someone would even think of doing something without his being the center controler.. Because of his out-of-focus perspective that an Eagle project is not all about the SM, but about the scout's planning & leadership, he probably had his pride hurt by your sons actions, therefore he childishly lashed out at him..

WOW Beavah!!! True we are getting only one side of the story, but for you to narrate the other side as practically fact is really odd.. The person assigned by district to be the Eagle advisor does not have the job of supporting the CO or the unit, but to be there for the guidence of the scout. If the scout has difficulties and calls the advisor, they are not at all out of line to advise and guide the scout and be in support of them.. As to the other comments you made, it is just too weird to even try to comment on the dreamworld of the Beavah... Basement - I did not get that take.. It is more like scout was kicked out and 70% of the troop decided to walk with him in support. Sort of like that lifeguard who was fired for doing a rescue outside of bounds.. He got fired and half the other lifeguards quit in support.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

You seem to be mixing up two different insurances.. As a scout event all scouts will be insured if they break a leg or whatever.. The insurance you are looking for is insurance over burning down the park, or someone in the community (non-scout) breaking their leg over a electric wire you dangerously had strung out.. I don't believe even your troop can get something like that for a troop event. I can get something like that for covering a District training I am running, more for the building we use as the people attending will all be scouts. I just don't think I can get that same type insurance at the troop level..

Wow! from lost tent to religious intolerance in one full swoop!!!... Oh well I found the comment intensly amusing Thanks for the laugh So was public ridiculing by posting on the forum? That is not really public, as except for getting to know each others personalities quite well, few of us really know who we really are..

What ScoutNut brings up is a question for discussion. If person A, agrees to be the overseer of the project, then mid-way backs out, the project is completed, the org. accepts the project.. Why can't person B, who also represents the org, be the changed signee?? Like what if person A moved, or died or whatever??? I would imagine there is something, if some leader from Council (higher then your normal district overseer).. Is watching the process yet has not made the suggestion.

I think what shortridge was asking was more to the point of if the sponser said "I don't want you to do this project anymore.. How did he do it.." I would imagine you had several people at a school who would gladly take volunteer work, the boy just found someone who said they would oversee and sign off.. The signer person pulled, but the school still took the volunteer work.. different then if it is a small organization where when someone says "get off my property".. Then as since they are the head of the organization, you need to pack your bags and leave. Perhaps if your signer was the Principle this might apply.. But at a school, I would imagine you could have gotten someone else, like PTA or a teacher or a VP... A troop self imploding due to the Adults not understanding they are not "Lord & Master".. That is a common thing.. Usually though not over an Eagle project..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Not common in the same way.. I don't know if I have heard of one being so controling that if he can't run the project, then he will put an end to the project.. Both parents & SM can mean well and ruin the project though, usually it is the scout not stepping up and telling them who is in charge that will kill it.. Example one of our scouts, had the SM question his project after numerous people from the troop told him it was run by his mother.. I suppose it is a done deal?.. No way that once the project was completed, the sponser changed their mind and signed the papers to it's completion?.. Well it says much for the boy to finish it, even if there was no way to right the wrong. Two choices for this scout on the next project.. #1.. change troops (which may be hard so close to Eagle unless he is young and plans to continue scouting after project is completed).. #2.. Do a project where the SM is not invited to be involved at all. You may run the risk of him not signing the paperwork, but you can run without a SM signature.. You just need to explain why it is not present.) If he uses anyone from the troop do it by personal invitation and let them know they are being personally invited, so not to broadcast the invite the whole troop.. But with that he needs to find workers out of the troop, like a project for a church group, where members of the church help out.. Or does he have family & friends outside of scouting (an his handpicked personal scout friends), where he could run the project with them.. Perhaps if he is in OA, those in that group might help.. Normally people who would normally sit back and not get involved do so when they see a person getting an unfair playing field, they will step in even if from different groups.. Maybe not to the same effect, because this was publicized and yours will not be.. But locally here about 2 years back, one scout was very close to completing his project.. On the last day of his work, it was sabatoged by some cruel vandals.. When he went to start the project over again, he had so much offers to help, he had to turn some of the help away.. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Well BSA is studying the issue and will give a decision mid May.. By other comments I will not hold my breath on a being successful.. In fact I doubt they will spend much time between now & May really seriously discussing the issue.. The thing is in the past they would just get all puffy and indignant and say "NO, and To H___ with you..".. Now they are at least putting a face on "thinking about it.".. Which is a small crack.. People who fear the change get nervous over hearing this stuff, even if it is a small scout group in another courntry thousands of miles away. They hear that eggshell around them.. Crack.. Crack.. Crack.. In the news today. I couldn't quite figure out what Episcopals is voting on about same-sex unions. I think this is some service they will preform even in states that are not accepting marriage, because they already can bless same-sex marriages in states where it is legal. Also this looks like it is a two part vote, this is only part one (sort of like house & senate votes).. Of course Episcopal have been lost for years with gay bishops and all. Sounds like U.S. Presbyterian Church voted on gay marriage acceptance (or a defination it is between 2 people rather then man & women) and it narrowly lost, so sounds like if they re-vote in 3 to 5 years they will be good.. This is the church my church is tied to.. That church started having some civil wars on these issues about 5 years back.. From what I hear Presbyterians are pretty big at sponsering BSA units. United Church Of Christ is already ok with gay marriage. Didn't know UCC was so small though in members though. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/09/12642039-episcopal-bishops-approve-resolution-to-bless-gay-unions?lite Kindof explains my attitude though.. Now not in a church I was raised Dutch Reformed (who know where that would have been had it stayed in America), UCC (my father was a minister of UCC so I would attend when I visited him in the summertime), and Presbyterian (when I was older, found a young fun church).

Frustration comes in many forms.. But, I rarely see a scout frustrated because he is tenting in the woods at 2nd class rather then 1st class.. Once out in the woods he knows what he knows.. Doesn't matter if he is 2nd class in troop A, but can run rings around the 1st class scout in troop B.. Frustration can come if at 1st class if you are now expected to "know" and don't.. Frustration can come if your troop advances unfairly, giving some scouts a quick run up the ranks without knowing anything, while you are left behind and have done things 3 times over and know you know more.. (Could be frustration at the Idiot scouts at higher ranks, could be frustration at the unfair double standards of the troop.) But if you know what you know, and are out in the woods with your buddies, and everyone in the troop is being advanced at a fair ranking system.. It does not matter what rank you are at sitting out in those woods.. Out in the woods, Rank will not matter.

Once posted, you never know where the trail will wander.. We may end up examining the plumbing under your kitchen sink before we are done here.

Well, I would consider it unprofessional if they gossiped about pack 325 doing such-and-such.. And the CM of pack 522 being a lazy and loud.. But, and overall general statement of "We enjoy visiting your group, because you treat us so great.. Most times, this happens.." is not telling tales on specific units.

How did the boys earn the "lost in the woods" rank without venturing outdoors?.. Was this a vertual woods like that vertual farming game I see some people playing?

LOL I thought the same as SecondClass. Other then that what purpose does it serve... Now if it had small opening so you could open a trap door to pee, I could see some guys not wanting to get out of their sleeping bag on a cold winter night when they have to pee using it.

Don't know what a XO is (to me it is kisses & hugs).. But the concept is a good one.

I think a few of you (starting with Nike) are reading way too much into the order of the words. Well my comment on the order of the scout oath was sarcasm that was saying pretty much the same thing. I figured those who push the moral values as the reason to exclude homosexuals would have argued about how the while the order in the Girl Guides meant something, the order of the scout oath did not. So "morally straight" was not because it was the least important.

If no Eagle project forseen, I can see a small service project.. Otherwise I still would prefer giving the Star and Life control of organizing a scouting even.. Example Let them take on the pinewood derby, making sure the sleds get needed repair, are outfitted for what should be on the sled, that the troop practices anything they know will be part of the competition.. Make sure there are enough Adults for two deep leadership, and enough drivers to get them there and back.. SPL can still be in charge of making sure the assigned scout does not drop the ball, and be there for advice.. It has no signs of an added service project, but all the skills involved... If you are in a troop with 3 Life scouts and 4 Star scouts, to add on practice run service projects for each that is 7 service projects that are bigger then an impromptu "just-do-it" add to that the 3 Eagle projects of the Life scouts and you have just got your troop roped into 10 service projects that have enough meat and time to it to give thes 7 scouts practice runs on top of actual Eagle projects.. Putting them in charge of organizing their own events also gives them practice time at skills needed.. But, in a way they are just having scouting fun, and feeling their troop is boy run and out having fun.. Change the program to get ScoutMasters to understand that having the boys organize their own events is part of boy-run.. Perhaps add something where at Star or Life requires the scout to head up at least one event for the troop. It does not need to be labeled "Service Project" in order to gain the skills on how to lead a service project..

Frankly - I think Merlin would have joined with his son had the organization been open at the key time his son wanted to join.. (At least that is what I got out of something he said a long time back).. The Den Leader who joined and was kicked out and is of the current patition also obviously joined and was of positive influence to that den of boys since the parents in the den rallied to her defense rather then saying.. "Good Riddence, whose the next Den Leader?".. I know there was a similar story about 6 months before her, but maybe it was a troop. Frankly I don't understand why those who do not like the BSA spend countless hours of personal energy into trying to change it, particularly knowing full well that their purpose is not to join the organization The Popcorn kernal Gay man, kicked out.. I remember someone else who was fine until his boyfriend picked him up.. Some parent asked another adult who stated the relationship and he complained to the council.. Some guy who was kicked out because he did something outside of scouts that was in a newspaper article, stating his orientation.. All of these were stories where the homosexuals did not publicize their sexual orientation but when found out by some adult who is predjudiced.. I just have never heard of the homosexual causing any attention to their sexual orientation until BSA actions angers them.. Now we all have agreed their are atheist amoung us who are fine to hide their beliefs for the other benefits of the program.. Normally atheist are easier at hiding amongst the agnostics, so they don't get their cover found out as easily.. Then you have all of us liberals, who can believe in a God, or at least be agnostic in our beliefs.. Those of us who have nothing against the homosexual community, even if we are not homosexual.. We are not kicked out of Scouting due to our beliefs that do not align perfectly with yours.. We will argue to end the discrimination, because it is not in par with accepting diversity nor in par with being open to all religious beliefs.. The fear that opening to atheists will make you Godless is silly when your CO can choose to be closed to atheists and choose to continue adding religion to your program. It just means at a camporee, your troop may camp next to a troop that doesn't do a prayer before their meal and may have a funny pause in their oath. There is your answer.. They are not people who have no interest in joining BSA.. There are alot already in scouting, others who want to enter scouting, and some who may be just supporting others in their group who wish to join, though they themselves do not.. Perhaps you could start petitioning scouts to kick everyone out who does not believe in a christian reliegion that is conservative.. That way you could kick more of us out who don't follow your beliefs.

I know troop service projects always dependend in our troop. If we had no or one Eagle project forseen that year, we would do one or two troop service project (perhaps some impromptu while camping somewhere, and finding a need. Which doesn't require pre-planning just doing) But, if we had a lot of Life scouts and forsaw alot of Eagle projects troop service projects would be tabled.. Scouting is not DeMolay, scouting is not all about fundraising or service projects. DeMolay is not a very popular youth program due to there not being much else.. You really have to make sure there is a good balance, so that the scouts get to feel good about the service projects they do, but are not feeling that is ALL that scouting is about.. The main focus must still be in the outings, too many service projects and fundraisers will pull away from that focus, as there is only so much time the boy will devote to scouting.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

So, I was discussing this with hubby & son who are on our district Advancement board. They pretty much agreed with me, but added a current case that drives this home more. Scout started his Eagle project, and raised money for it bought some supplies. Then just stopped. Rumer now is he does not plan to finish.. So, now it is getting the money and materials from him to their rightful owner, which is Parks and Recreations.. Scout is not responding.. (Sort of like families who sold popcorn, and never turned in the money.).. This may get into a legal issue if not resolved, where if they can not get the stuff from the scout, it may then also fall onto the troop who sponsers the troop to cover the missing money raised for Parks and Recreation.

If you allow the boys more responsibility with planning their own events, including calling places for prices and best seasons to go, organizing who is going, the collecting of the money, transportation etc.. I think the boys will have plenty of small projects under their belts before tackling the Eagle project.