moosetracker

Since things like Powderhorn & Woodbadge are a wee bit expensive, I would look around to the EDGE training (If your Councils does it at Council level rather then district level. Mine does).. Or a University of Scouting or PowWow. You can probably ask your District training Chair if they know of anything coming up. Their contact email should be listed on your Districts website. One last thing, would training you pick up at summer camp qualify as council level, or are they looking more for a specific training day/weekend event? This is a good question. Again you can ask for clarification from you DTC, but since I am one and don't know, this may be a question the Council Training chair will need to answer.. Personally I would say "No", it may be arraiged by the Council (more like the camp Director who is acting link a Training Chair).. But, if the training is offered on the internet or through your district it isn't Council Level training, it is simply put on by the Council.. To my mind there is a difference.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

It would be interesting to see real research data on the opinion of Scouts (both Eagles and not) graduating from the program. It would only have some credit if it was an independent study.. After this recent fabricated 2 year secret panel "review", I wouldn't trust any research data coming from BSA on the subject.

Kindof what I thought.. Moose would never start the conversation in a large group... True.. But then Moose never really converses in large groups on anything, always a subset of a large group. And Moose doesn't start the threads on the forum, simply adds her opinion to a thread already started. Now if I have to teach a course I might have a large group.. But, doing a personal opinion podium speech in a training course would be over the top.. Bando's ECOH was about him, and he was encouraged to give a small speech presumably about BSA as it relates to him.. So as NJCubScouter says, as long as it wasn't too long winded ok.. A training course during class time when you are to stay with the syllabus should not be time to voice your opinions. If though BSA ever changes their syllabus to require us to teach people how to use gaydar, and how to kick people out when the gaydar alarm sounds.. It will be time to stop doing training.

Well, I am not given to public speeches.. But my Username is not kept secret to those I know also use the Scouter forum.. I don't hide from being from NH, and except for a few towns, NH is from one council.. So I have been PMed and honestly tell people who are in my council who I am. If in a small discussion group on the topic, I will voice what I voice here. But, I don't work hard to funnel the conversation into that direction.

Nice.. So in the 90s we got lost and took the wrong road, and you guys just defined the road you had always been on. I am sure you do have some who choose to avoid a unit if they dislike a unit leader who is homosexual, but then that is not any different then avoiding one with a control freak, or braggart as a leader..

Glad you are enjoying some of the events, and got seating, I know some watching on big TV's the events outside are really ticked off with the empty seats.. Sounded like they were going to let some of them in to fill those empty seats if no one shows up.. Are they starting to do that? A few more Questions.. Did TSA just ride through the homosexual thing by never stating your position one way or the other and always being open? If it was a change in policy, did whole groups (like church groups), did sponsered groups loose their sponsors?.. Or was it individuals individually choosing to leave.. I know you stated the membership increase is due to many things, but wondering what happen during the fallout of the policy change.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

At some point in the distant past it would have been courageous. But today quietly and without fanfare would be the appropriate way to signal one's change of heart. Huh?.. What change of heart? People don't accept Eagle because the dislike homosexuality. BSA did not discriminate until the 1991 with an internal document and did not make it public until 1992.. Still the discrimination policy was not well known until probably the past 5 years.. Some kids still may earn the Eagle clueless of this policy and if known be shocked and not agree with it.. So I doubt many who returned the badge did so because they had a change of heart.. Though some may have evolved, as acceptance has been going up quickly over the past few years. Still, I doubt they got their Eagle, knowing they were doing so because their values of disliking homosexuals was in tune with BSA. I also think it is not going to change BSA's position.. Better to stay associated to the organzation and make it publically known that BSA is full of it to try to pretend all parents are in unity on this issue..

Hey Cambridgeskip, How's those Olympics going for you now that "Party Pooper Romney" has left? I would imagine you are having a more "jolly ole time of it" now.. Hopefully Cambridgeskip will come back to discuss it, but I know it was discussed before.. I know they do not have Charter Orgs like ours.. From what I remember, that meant a full sweeping change, don't quite remember though.. So maybe we need the story retold.. Cambridgeskip, we are setting up the campfire, and rolling over some logs to sit on.. We are already for story time..

If you want a local unit to be more open you would have to take it up with the CO the unit is under. If they wont change, you go to the unit down the block. If you object to the unit welcoming a gay parent as a leader, you would have to take it up with the CO the unit is under. If they wont change, you can go to the unit down the block. I really don't see the whole national level public outrage for a small unit in Somewhere PA, who refuses to not allow women into their adult leadership positions.. I will admit to not having low tolerance for some positions.. Still I would let people stay or choose to leave Scouting when the policy changes. I wont kick people out, regardless of their position.. So maybe this will give you the right to call me a bigot Seattle, but I am a more tolerant bigot than some people on the other side of the debate.

Besides UK & Canada, look quick at Northern Star (before National destroys their working system).. They were American, yet they were smart enough to make it work also.. Our very own successful pilot test that National would like to sweep under the rug.

We would hope that as a result of further dialogue and reflection, the Boy Scouts of America would reconsider their position to further serve young people and the wider community. Well said from our British brethren. Now, Continue on...

Oh those who simple follow the policy are not bigots.. But when the policy is changed for local option, those who flee because they can't accept a new policy that every charter will have a right to choose for themselves, and everyone has the right to choose a unit matching their beliefs.. Those are the ones with the label.. In the UK, I guess they didn't have local option, either you had a open mind, or you had a closed mind and could not follow the new policy.

LONG LIVE THE SCOUT ASSOCIATION IN THE UK!! There has to be an acronym for that.. SAU ?? TSAU ?? Sounds so much more welcoming and inviting.. I know everyone who opposes their stands likes to point out the loss when they shook off the bigots.. But 8 years of growth is impressive.. Let's hope our BSA doesn't wait until it is too late to shake off the bigots and still be able to survive.. If not, it is a continuing slow decline to the bottom.. Anyway, I found this on Comedy central about the BSA stance (as well as Chick-Fil-a).. It was good, and not much swearing as they do bleep overs if a swear word is used.. http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-23-2012/gaywatch---holdouts-edition

My question is how did they do the take-over? I see the section " We think the ASM and SM have been bad-mouthing the chair and he believes them. " If "he" is the COR, in which case they may have been underhanded, but they did it correctly. If they just did a takeover without the COR backing them, then they have not authority to do it. Either way, your group who opposes this move should have a friendly talk with the COR to see if you can rectify the situation with them after the fact. If they don't know what is going on, you have an advantage to swing the situation around to your favor. If they have poisioned the COR view, then you have a disadvantage in having to clarify charges against the CC after the fact and re-win favor and support.

20 pack for $20, is 1 dollar per bag. It is also a full sized bag.. To pay twice that price (2 dollars per bag), when each bag is about 1/3 the size of the full size, means your paying about 6 times the cost of the 94% ff box. Since the 94% ff box is about 2 to 3 times higher then normal, think about how much this mini bag Trails End product is overpriced.

Well I know all the popcorn is way over priced, but $20 for 10 mini bags which are about a cups worth after popping.. I don't think so..

nldscout, you make it sound like only the adults will leave. Adults will take their kids. SP - What new issue? This topic has stayed on track discussing the Northern Star Policy. Except they haven't had a policy of accepting immoral people for 12 years BSA has always had policies to accept immoral people the stripper, wife beater, those who commit adultery, they are at the COs discretion.. You must mean "Except they haven't had a policy denouncing bigotry for 12 years"

Philidelphia was different, they didn't have an inclusive program for 12 years.. they tried to make an inclusive policy to calm the community that wanted them out of their building.. National will probably do as you say.. But, this will cause those in the council to be infurated over the high handed dictates of National. In this section of the world there inclusiveness is a source of pride for them. I forsee membership going way down, units folding, and except for some contributions from there small LDS groups, community contributions and FOS will be alot lower.

SR540Beaver - I am sorry that that happened to you, and I can understand your personal bias, but I you can not convince me.. Even with AZMike chiming in "Yes, Yes! They are all pedophiles..! " Nope.. Your story though slanting it to Gays, also has traction for another popular belief.. All preists are sexual preditors.. Especially the Catholic priests who promote and protect pedophiles.. Every time Catholics make some sort of statement.. Look at the comments.. 90% in disagreement, have maybe 10% a comment about the stupid thing they said this time, 90% are about the fact they are all pedophiles.. Why should you listen to a bunch of pedophiles? They first have to clean up their own morals and stop raping young boys before trying to dictate to me how I should live my life.. Can I go with these beliefs?. Sure I could. There was some poll conducted years back, even before the Catholic debacle that stated that religious leaders of all faiths were the group most likely to have sexual transgressions.. From pedophiles to being adulterous.. Do not ask me to find the study, as stated it was years ago. I believed it without question at the time, due to personal history. My father, being a protestant minister cheated on my mother with the wife of a family in his parish.. I have some half sister I never met from the affair, but it broke up my home and the other family which also had 2 or 3 children.. So if I still held onto this belief, would I be right.. Are those who believe the Catholic priests are all pedophiles, that the church is still harboring and protecting these pedophiles correct?.. If this statement is true, then for the safety of our children, we should remove our charters away from any connection with any churches.. Why would we want our children anywhere near these morally corrupt sinners?

So your going to wear it on your uniform, although registered to a different council?.. Hmmmmm... thinking...

Still if I was a very conservative parent and knew little about the scouts, but was looking for a nice activity for my first grader. Regardless of National siding with my belief, there is also all these news articles of people standing up to them and purposely not following their rules.. I do not think I would be interested in taking little Johnny into a program full of turmoil and unrest.. Best to put him in little league.. Last time there was disappointment, and I am sure some left the organization. But there was not so much direct opposition within the organization.. Or at least the internet wasn't as efficient as now, where the turmoil played out in the media, on blogs, in forums and in Remarks after an article..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Yeah.. I surfed the web for the article, and when found same paper, but they gave me a free pass.. Don't want to put the whole article in as RememberSciff, don't need no piracy charges.. But this paragraph was interesting. The Boys Scouts Boston Minuteman Council adopted a nondiscrimination policy 10 years ago that includes sexual orientation, said Sean Martin, a council spokesman. Mr. Martin said he didn't know of any gay or lesbian leaders or scout members in the council. Mr. Martin said the BSA has long been aware of Boston's policy and there have been no repercussions. Mr. Smith, the BSA spokesman, said he had no information about the Boston group's practice. Everyone here thought Minuteman Council has had their hands slapped already.. I wonder if Minuteman, Northern Star, and the Philidelphia Council stood together, would national really seek to loose 3 councils? I think this story will be in the news for quiet some time, maybe all through Fall recruitment, where parents can look at this conflict and regardless of which side they personally are on, will just not want their 1st grader signing up into the middle of such a civil war. I can see membership and FOS with other donations are going to be small this year..

Listen carefully everyone, the BSA does not exclude leaders or scouts due to sexual orientation. They do exclude leaders and scouts for homosexual conduct - however, conduct doesn't get defined in detail. Only by observing this "conduct" does one now become "known" or "avowed" as a homosexual. Acc040 - Known or avowed means "KNOWN" or avowed.. No questionable conduct needed. If you got picked up from and event by another adult male, is this conduct worthy of having you removed from your scouting position? It was either that which got someone removed, or the fact some scouter asked who so&so's ride was, and another adult responded it was his other half.. The scouter who asked complained and he was removed.. He was removed because he was found out by a prejudicial scouter. Scouters do not have to DO anything to be removed, all they need is for someone who is prejudice to find out and report them. RememberSciff - I wish the article did not require a subscription to read. Sounded interesting..

I was on staff for a Woodbadge with basically LDS participants as we ran it without a Sunday.. The people were wonderful, lapped up woodbadge, really excited about scouting. But, you definately got the feeling they were on an all time high, because they were finally with a group of LDS who WANTED a good scouting program for their youth.. The stories they told, and they pain to organize their tickets were sad though. They would tell the stories of the lack of motivation or care by everyone around them. Den Leaders & SM & CC tickets were easy.. Build a Pack or troop from something with no activity.. One CC I had didn't even know he was the CC.. The first week he worried over what to do, as he was a committee member and no one had yet to give him a job to do.. His assignment the first break was to work with his CC to find a committee postion. Came back told me he was CC.. I asked if he was just assigned.. No, he just didn't know he was CC.. Other LDS members told me that was a common occurance. Another committee member we basically had to get him to sign up with the District to do his tickets there, he was in an do nothing troop. Alot of them talked about becoming a trainer, so they could do trainings for other LDS members.. I told them, they would have to discuss it with their district training chair, but being a DTC I would be fine with their doing the training as long as I could participate for a few training to make sure it was being done correctly and the course was open to anyone in our district or council.. In other words they could set the schedule to be LDS friendly, just keep the training open to all.. Well the open to all concept was a total wet blanket on their idea and no one used it for a ticket item. There was something about wanting to add to the training LDS specific stuff.. I suggested doing the normal class, let non-LDS out, and then do the special LDS only stuff.. This fall we are running our IOLS training on two Saturdays and a friday night, it is special for LDS attendance.. We will promote it.. Lets hope someone shows up. We have no one at the camporee going home on Saturday.. At least in our district. But, there may be other districts that do.. I was surprised to find out a few I knew at council level and I worked with on WB staff who were LDS, didn't know it. I am sure their troops were making camporees, they just are not in my district.. I don't know if they feel self-concious about taking down and going home Saturday night, that keep them from coming out or if our district has troops in the same shape as the ones the WB participants were in (needing alot of help, and basically not functioning).. They just don't. I think though that the WB course is going to make a huge difference to some units. There were units there where 80% of the adult leaders of the unit came as a cluster. Those guys are going home with 80% of their adult leaders now clued in to what a scouting program is all about, and they all will be working ticket items to improve the troop, pack or crew.. Again, very nice group of people.. People who wanted to go back and make a change, they had the spirit and the drive to want to make a difference.. But, if you told me I was running a WB program for people on their first week ever of being in a scouting program, I would have believed that was the case for at least 75 to 80 percent of the people in attendance.. I would imagine things to be different in Salt Lake though.. I would imagine with LDS being the majority, then most likely have training, camporees etc geared to them and their schedule they become more involved.

My guess is few LDS would stay in scouts & transfer to a non-LDS unit. 1) if they drop the BSA, they will set up some other program the boys must join. There is only so much free time you can have. 2) Many never like Boy Scouts because it is mandatory.. So they treat it like school and eatting your veggies. 3) Although some LDS units are well run, many are not.. This never would even get the boy a chance to get over the fact it is manditory by discovering that it is a fun program. Adults have way to suck all the fun out of the program. That goes for poorly run non-LDS units as well as LDS units, thing is with non-LDS the boys have the right to vote with their feet..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)