moosetracker

Our hearts go out to those lost and the survivors and families of those children and educators in that school. Those who survived will be tramatazed, possibly for life. Those who lost someone will have a hole in their family unit that will be always felt. I will be interested to see what does come out of Washington, if what they try to piece together is a package of controls on guns, hollywood shows, mental illness, violent games etc. and it finally has not only Democrates, but Republicans, the NRA and others working together for a solution. It is a shame it took something like this to bring people together united for a cause. Perhaps legislation will not solve it all, but if it makes it harder for those with mental illness to get these ideas from the comuter games and movies, and have an easy time getting a hold of semi-automatics & ammunation whether they purchased it or stole it from someone they know has it. It wasn't done in time to prevent this attack, but perhaps it will be in place to prevent another event that we never hear about, because it never happened.

If you want to call any SM talking to scouts an SMC, but not the SMC related to advancement. Then fine have an SMC that is not related to advancement. I guess our units never called anytime a SM talks to you an SMC, just the talk for advancement an SMC.. So I will give on the fact there is a different interpretation of the phrase.. I restate what I said to being that before the meeting, you should contact the scout and let him know the SMC is not a (for advancement) SMC.

But, Horizon it has been debated many times on here, and policy has it that both SMC & BOR are rubber stamps, unless perhaps the BOR can site that requirements were not met. They may have a shot at this, but who knows how the book has been doctored. As others stated it is 1st class rank (or below), or it would not be needed to finish up Eagle in a Venture crew, so the POR is not required. I just wouldn't start down the path, especially if you are going to contest his membership in the unit. Seems you will have stated acceptance of him as a member if you conduct an SMC for him. Mother sounds slick and cunning, so I would be cautious not to get trapped into her web.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

You in general. It was in answer to your comment of : We weed them out at the unit level. Adult association is one of the methods of Scouting, it is the responsibility of the units and the COs to make sure the adult volunteers are positive role models. I did not think your "We" was in "I" or even really specifically your unit, but in a General "we", you stated "Units" and "COs", not "my unit" or "My CO".

If you want to talk to the boy, I would find out his contact info (from council if you don't have it) and call before the meeting date and let them know you will talk to them but that it is not an SMC.. From what I understand an SMC is just the act of having it, it really doesn't need you to say pass or fail.. Holding it will give them another check mark. If your CC & COR don't remember signing this application, I would sugest asking council for the original paper copy (they should hold on to the paper app in a file cabinate). So they could then look at the signatures to see if they signed something and didn't remember it, or if it was forged.

And if homosexuality was not held on a different plane of sin then all other sins it would also be the choice of your COR, CC or IH. But, it is held on a different plane. You might personally have no control over BSA policy, but as collective groups we can change policy. So you have the right to hide behind the policy, and I and others like me who disagree with the policy can speak out against it and large cash donations have the right to dry up if they do not agree with the policy.. Now you may wish to speak out with others against other policies you disagree with, perhaps it is about putting an age limit on the use of little red wagons, or policies that have made it easier for a boy to make Eagle without backpacking, or really learning scout craft.. But, others who want to run Eagle mill troops by following policies that allow them to make it easy for their scouts to earn eagle by either them (or their parents who do things for them) doing little more then register for a few years where they can give them a position in title only, and have the scouts parents sign off their merit badges, and offer some whimpy cabin retreat camping trips, and considering a good Eagle project as being Mom, Dad and scout building a single bat house and hanging it up for a non-profit org. They can point out that the policies are the policies.. This group of people also have the right to group together and suggest that National make it even easier by changing any policies they think may still give them a little difficulty in getting that paper Eagle certificate, quickly, easily and painlessly.

Correction - you may "choose" to weed them out (or not), your choice.. But, with homosexuals you are not given that option.. There was a lady on here with a drunk and although she wanted him out, the unit was hurting for adult leadership, therefore he was shifted to different position by the CO and DE in an attempt to keep the unit going.. I think after the 3rd time he came to an event drunk she was able to pull him out without someone putting him into another position. But, if she didn't care either, the drunk would have the permission to stay on. There are many Adulterer in many troops, as long as they don't parade their mistresses in and out of troop meeting, they are allowed to have their private flings.. Then if there is a husband/wife blow-up you either ask them not to have war during scouting time. Again I will restate.. "conservative Religious notions on sin, and the need to hold this sin as worse then any other sin."..

Actually I don't care what you and your troop do. You can exclude all you want.. I guess that means I can camp next to your troop with my 2 or 3 homosexual parents in attendance who are unregistered and have no background checks, and your fine with that too, since BSA will allow that. But, quit the line about it is all about fear of homosexuals being pedophiles.. Because it is not. It is as I stated before "conservative Religious notions on sin, and the need to hold this sin as worse then any other sin.".. This is what I was discrediting.. I think I won my case, since you had to scramble and hide behind "The rules is the rules".. And yes it is treating this sin as worse then any other sin, since BSA will allow Adulters, drunks, wife beaters and other sinners to register.

Boy "Old Chicago" that is a trip down memory lane.. It was opened when I was there, it was closed and sat like a white elephant for years while I was there. They must of tore it down after I left, but when I returned it never phased me that it was gone.. That was only a few blocks from where my sister livs and I had a condo unit for about 2 years time.

It isn't any harder then looking at your adult leadership for a venture crew outing now and saying "hey, we have two females, we need a male".. Or at a troop and saying the only adults signed up are an 18 yo & 20 yo we need someone over 21 in adult leadership. If you only have one homosexual adult in your group, there will never be two in your group.. Right now, a registered Adult and a parent can take the troop on an outing.. Whose to say that unregistered parent is not a open homosexual. No one says you can't. The answer to why it would be a solution even if it causes such "trouble" is as you say.. Venturing already has issues trying to get female leaders on trips. If you have a problem with "going to all that trouble", then be a unit that doesn't accept the openly gay person as the Scoutmaster or ASM, but allow them to be on the committee, or just say your religion doesn't accept homosexual adult leaders, but the troop down the street does. Why because "YOU" don't want to go to that trouble, should you decide that "I" also can not go to that trouble? For your one example. In a country of millions, you can always find an example of one or two to prove any point you wish to make. The thing is to look at the norm. I can point you in the direction of many, many, many examples of children being raised by homosexual parents that turn out just fine, although perhaps liberal minded and very accepting of the gay community.. Sure there are a few that become homosexual themselves, but not more then normal. Those that do, do not have to fear their families reaction to it. Homosexual parents want their children to be happy. Therefore they hope they will fit into the mainstream, but if not they can help their child accept who they are, whether that be homosexual, a nerd, having physical limitations whatever.. To wish their children to be homosexual is like you being a cripple and hoping your children are born cripples also. Or being deaf and hoping your children will be deaf also.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Also, part of the reason that pedophiles claim to be heterosexual is that it gives them cover--as Moose correctly points out, the idea is not to raise suspicion. As the gay lifestyle becomes more accepted, I wonder if what pedophiles claim to be will change? That was basically my point. Not that a pedophile never could ever be gay. Just that if a peophile wants to blend in and not draw attention to himself, and be more trusted he will not be your openly avowed gay. All BSA rule is about is not accepting the openly avowed gays. This will not be your pedophile.. Huzzar - Bingo, it is not.. If that is your concern, then add to the youth protection that 2 openly avowed gay men can't be the only adult supervision on an all boy troop outing.. But what about 2 openly avowed gay women with the boys? Or 2 openly avowed gay men with the girls? or a mix of 1 heterosexual and 1 gay person? Or 3 or 4 adults some heterosexual some homosexual some men, some women? Or why can't a homosexual be a tiger den mom, or a Committee Chair, or the Troop treasurer who never goes camping at all? What about a homosexual working at District level in Finance or event organizing or with Popcorn or Friends of Scouting? (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I agree with Adam S. Your pedophile will not be your openly gay person. It will be the heterosexual, married, father of 2 who is so perfectly normal you would never suspect them. Your pedophile is neither heterosexual or homosexual, it is not the sex act that arouses them. It is the control & power over someone smaller and weaker and innocent. The girl scouts might not allow 18 and 21 year old boys off with young girls on a camping trip, but I would be surprised if they allowed two 40 year old men off with young girls on a camping trip either. Boy scouts woule not allow that in a venturing crew, neither would they allow two females off camping with a bunch of boys. You have to have one adult of the same gender along, or one adult of each gender in a mix group of boys and girls. Doesn't have anything to do with age. The age thing (although with BS it would be that someone must be 21 or older) has to do with the fact that youth can be more daring and risk takers, an older adult will take more caution with determining the risk factor. (or at least that is the hope, some people never grow up.) Exclusion of homosexuals has nothing to do with trying to reduce pedophiles and everything to do with conservative Religious notions on sin, and the need to hold this sin as worse then any other sin. Unfortunately for religions they are even loosing this war with their own flock. 49% of Catholics are for same-sex marriage, even in evangelicals churches the young people 18 to 29 are also changing their attitudes (I think for young evangelicals it's about 44%) But they do have a longer way to go with the old fogies of that church.And that is for the controversy over Same-sex marraige not the debate over should homosexuals be treated like lepords in our society. Yes, the war is even being lost within the church walls. Add to that the scout units that don't put too much attention on religion in scouting which is more tracking with the countries attitude of 53% for same-sex marriage, 46% against, 2% no opinion (again no poll on the question of if homosexuals should be shunned by the public.).. The best thing to do is allow units their own choice on the issue, then people can choose not to go to units that don't meet their values.

Dupage sounds familure. Not Will County. Now I don't know why Cook rings such a familure bell. White Fence Farm? Isn't that the family style chicken place? WOW, not too surprised that is still around, it was very popular, but haven't been there in ages. Usually if visiting family it is always a good gyro we look for, they aren't so good up here. Until it went under my other favorite eating place to revisit was Anne Santa Fe, I have ever found a mexican place that came close. Eagle732 - do your one-lines have any point, or are you just just practicing your troll impersonations?

I think Cook county was the county I lived in, when I lived in Bolingbrook IL.. I attended Elmhurst College in Elmhurst IL, that might have been a different county, but I really wasn't interested in politics in my college years.. Don't know about other states, but NH has lost federal funds due to certain things. I do not know if it really didn't do motor voter, or perhaps our state had it but didn't advertise motor voter so few knew about it, therefore few used it. But I know we loose Fed funds by not having the seatbelt & motorcyle helmet laws.

Thanks - Here is what I found on Blue NH.. Seems more aimed at our same day voter registration, but says we enacted that because we really didn't want to do the Motor Voter thing.. HB 223 eliminates same day voter registration in NH. The language of the bill seems to indicate that registering voters is a lesser concern than ensuring proper ID, residence, and proper behavior on the part of election officials. Same day voter registration was enacted because NH did not want to comply with "motor voter" laws. We stll had same day registration, so it failed. If you saw something else you can send me the link. But really, how can you consider voter registration at your DMV more apt to be fraudulent then hireing some teenage kid to take registration information outside of a strip mall? To which this year proved at least one kid tossing out those who registered Democrat in a nearby dumpster, as well as registering a bunch of dead people. I know these last 2 years we had some voter supression tactics due to the house going red until it got re-flipped this election. Like we got a voter ID law.. (I did see from your "Blue New Hampshire" suggestion, our new blue house promises to get rid of it first thing). Also trying to keep out-of-state college residents from voting in our state. When the NH court overturned it, GOP were insisting the Fed. Supreme court take it up about a month out from elections.. Yeah Right! Keep Dreaming.. Should be less theatrical these next 2 years with a Democratic house. I am so glad our Governor election is held with the Presidential election and did not get caught in the wave of Republican voting of 2 years back. Most of the stupid stuff attempted was veto by Democratic Gov. Lynch, it would have been bad if Tea-partier Ovide Lamontagne. I would hate having to endure the problems Florida, Michigan & Virgina have. Even when they go blue, it will take them years to fix all the wrongs. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I guess I never noticed, don't remember any signs or information in the DMV but also I don't have to do Driver License renewal except every 5 years. Now, it looks like we can do Drivers License renewal on-line.. This is interesting, no new picture or eye test required anymore. But, I go to my town clerks office at least once a year to do my car registrations, and when I do that, I would check with anything pertaining to my voting registration. My city clerks office is much, much more convient then my DMV.. Still I don't see a question of fear of voter fraud here. If you get it with your Drivers license and your drivers license is needed to make sure you are a valid voter, I don't see the issue. When I lived in IL, I voted there around the Reagan era.. I remember machines that were intimidating, big machines with levers sort of like the machine the wizard of Oz used behind the curtain.. I was surprised to see a video of Obama voting on some little rinky dink machine.. But, I like NH old fashioned paper ballot with the "fill in the circle". We get linke 30 curtain booths to use to fill them out. Old people & young people can figure out the fill in the circle.. I think I took less then a minute to fill mine out. I guess the line would come sometimes at getting them scanned in, but I normally went during quiet times.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Thanks for your concern for my health Brewmeister. It is nice to know you wish me to live a long and healthy life..

My husband voted by mail this year. Seems quick and easy, but the thing I don't like about it, is they seem to wait until after the election to scan them in. So, like your vote really dosn't count, because the race is called without it.. Of course they seem to call the race before 20 to 30% of the votes that voted on election day are counted.. Except for Florida, where we had to wait until every single vote was tallied up. I guess they just didn't want to admit that Obama won there, so they weren't calling it until they had to. So if you really want you vote to count you have to vote early, in person, on election day.. Better yet, the Nate Silver polling is becomeing accurate enough, why don't we just skip the actual voting and have his polling be the offical vote count?.. Must be Nate Silver though, definately not any of the Republican polls, they were way off the mark. (Although I think Nate's is a composite of all the polls, so they caused his to be a little off it's mark.)

Garrison - Bluntly put, I would say that permitting certain adults to volunteer in a nonprofit organization (for youth) that does not need, nor require, nor solicit for their help has nothing to do with scouts or scouting. Must be nice to have so much volunteer help that you are picking & choosing. Most units I know are desperate for adults to step up to volunteer.. Many of them would find homosexual adults as equally qualified as hetersexual adults, since teaching or discussing sexuality has noting to do with the scout craft or scout values (at least half the scouting community interprets as not everyone sees a moral sin in homosexuality.).

"You" as in your polictical party. If your not Republican, you are certainly blind & thick headed enough to fit in wonderfully with them. I would love internet voting also. I more fear the ability to "cheat". I have yet to see an internet system that has not been cracked. I will not trust it for my banking at all.. I will though do ccard purchases, but I don't quite trust a feeling that I am playing russian roulette. Calico what is the "motor voter laws" this is one I never heard of.. Also the 3 black panthers one with a stick of 4 years back became more comical this year when it was one (stickless) black panther guy standing quietly near a polling center.. Heaven Forbid!(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

You said it, Brewmeister.. Because you refuse to acknowledge the long lines and where those long lines were. You also can not understand the word "Backfired".. You angered people who took their voting rights for granted until it was threatened. They probably would not have voted, definately would not have stood in those long lines tp vote except for their anger and determination to prove you could not take their rights away from them. You just don't understand how this play backfired on the Republicans. Some of your Republican leaders have acknowledged the procedure, and claimed it was not a way for the Republicans to succeed in the future. They have stated that the answer is not to limit the voting of certain demographics but to find ways to change the messaging to something that will appeal to other groups and try to get a bigger tent. Otherwise the Republican tent is destined to get smaller and smaller.. I have mainly heard of Republican thinking to court Latinos, but not anything about the black vote, other poor people or the votes of youth. If you court Latinos but not the youth, the increase % of latino voting is due to thier increasing youth turning of age. So will they vote per their latino parents views, or with their peer group? They also may be in poverty or grew up in poverty even if they are moving into middle class through use of Government programs that gave them a helping hand. Will they turn their backs on programs they were glad were there to help them? Then their is the other part of the party (like you) who will deny the obvious, think the way to win is to be more "pure" to their conservative values are looking for new ways to limit voting priviledge for groups that will not vote their way next time. We democrats are having fun watching the internal war. The young will keep getting voting rights by the hundreds of thousands each year, the old will continue to die off.. If you don't figure out how to get a bigger tent, you will continue to shrink..

Basement, I never knew you lived in Ohio! Don't know why, but always thought you were in NY city.. But, yep.. Considering the inner city kids you discuss working with, if you were in Ohio, you felt the voter suppression.. Let your scouts parents know that to me anyone who voted under the circumstances you had to deal with are all heros to me. I can see some future movie (might not be until a time we can look back on it to point out the wrong side of history Republicans were on).. Where your line stances are part of the tale.. Might be in the retelling of the first black President, might be just in the story telling of politics during this era.. But, I see those who came out and stood in line as a grand statement in the movie. So were you in an area where the constant visits by Romney and Obama, turned your driving commutes into a nightmare? Though we were a swing state and kept each party guessing which way we would swing right up to election day, our measley 4 electorial votes keeps us from getting much attention, which I am thankful for. Not totally ignored, but not a state in a political tug-of-war.

Sure the election is over with. It's an Old tired fight. It is just Republican supporters feel that since their efforts to suppress the vote failed in this election, they can claim that it never happened.. Failure doesn't mean it never happened, otherwise our jails would not be so full of people who failed to get away with murder, robbery, drug dealing etc.

Sorry 732 - I have been arguing with boneheaded Republicans too long to notice a snarky smiley face, accept when boneheaded snarkiness is attached to it.. So sorry if I did not see the joke you intended it to be.

No, it is proven by the ultra long lines caused. Those people should have been able to go to vote with a line less than one hour long. Suppression is not only beating people up who go to the poll booth, it is about finding ways to discourage turnout by the group you don't want to vote.. Turn out should have been accommodated and handled efficiently, with enough polling places & booths for the population being serviced. It was purposely shrunk to not be able to do it, with court battles to deny more early voting days, when everyone could see the bottleneck coming, the only difference was just GOP wanted it, and Democrats wanted to avoid it. It's elementary why the bottleneck would happen more in the city polling booths then rural areas, even if the long ballot was in both places. Rural areas had more polling places / polling booths for their smaller populated areas. It is easy to figure out how to accommodate for the population in the area.. All the states with Democratic Government was able to do it.. Some of the Republican ones did. I do have to give kudos to Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey for how he handled elections with the loss of power and polling places due to Hurricane Sandy. Basically it was only Republican Government in swing states that seemed to have a problem handling voter turnout in their metro areas.. Strange, coincidence isn't it? NOT!