moosetracker

Ahhhhh... Twocub you might have hit upon part of the problem of why these two units are so closely bonded.. Last year I visited them, all the dens met at the same time & location as you said.. But, it was also at the same time same location as the troop.. They just were divided by a moving wall partition.. The strange thing I observed was that the boy scouts had the side of the room for movement & games (which yes BS do need that).. But the CS had the tables & chairs and basically sat and did school work type of den meetings.. Luckily now, the dens meet different times & places and we hold the Pack meeting together not while the troop is meeting. For them this current activity is probably to the point of giving them separation anxiety. Ahhhhh... Twocub you might have hit upon part of the problem of why these two units are so closely bonded.. Last year I visited them, all the dens met at the same time & location as you said.. But, it was also at the same time same location as the troop.. They just were divided by a moving wall partition.. The strange thing I observed was that the boy scouts had the side of the room for movement & games (which yes BS do need that).. But the CS had the tables & chairs and basically sat and did school work type of den meetings.. Luckily now, the dens meet different times & places and we hold the Pack meeting together not while the troop is meeting. For them this current activity is probably to the point of giving them seperation anxity.

Oh I agree Cambridgeskip, I am not advocating NO interaction between the two units.. Just too much, like linking to each others events all the time in my opinion may just be worse then none at all.. Especially if the Troop lives in Webelos III mode which makes them not see a problem with being joined at the hip to the Pack.. Eventually I would like to see these cubbies move up to the Troop, and the Troop offer a challenging enough program to keep their interest..

Hmmm... Some new error, the Post, will write out, but seems like it doesn't then gives some error and resets the post button so you can dup the post.. Seeing Tempa Turtle is on his 3rd post (when I first came in he only had 2) I don't think he has figured this out yet.

True, but considering both Pack & unit are struggling for survival, I would say with these units it is not so much in a rut do to great successes and wanting to become better.. It is more the easy way out.. Also, if the troop is at most Pack events and the Pack is at most troop events, I really see this a the possible reason the troop can not keep boys more then about 2 years.. When they get to Boy Scouts it is not a different program that is challenging.. It is the same program they have done for the last 4 or 5 years while in the Pack.

Neither are great money makers, but we do decent with a pancake breakfast on Scout sunday with many of the Congregation coming in before or after service. Otherwise whether you are on a busy road or not, we just don't have a draw from the outside public.. When I was a youth my fathers church ran a great ice cream social.. I wouldn't even know how to replicate it.. They would make about 5 different types of homemade icecream and I guess the farmers in the area donated the milk, and they had large icecream churners that they hooked somehow to tractors that would crank it.. They made some before the social started, but they kept making it all the way through the social.. The church was in the middle of no where out in the corn fields in Illinois, but when the social ran, they pulled in hundreds and hundreds, including the Amish who came in their buggies... You didn't think there were that many people in a 20 mile radius due to it just being miles and miles of corn fields.. Due to the equipment, I could never reproduce it.. But, great memories. Now my church as a youth had a fantastic chicken dinner cooked on open pits, some secret recipe that was great, and I never found any other place, it wasn't bbq sauce, I am guessing more of a burbon sauce of some kind.. That also had a great turnout from the community.

I have been in units where they got into the rut of doing the same things every year, For troops it was the winter cabin trip, the trip to the indoor rock climbing walls, the thanksgiving outing with the families.. With the pack it was the annual Christmas party where you all slept on the gym floor, the Halloween hayride of course it is hard for a pack to move away from the Pinewood Derby & Blue & Gold, which are pushed by the districts.. Anyway, I am right now involved in resurrecting a Pack where every single leader was new at recharter time, but 2 had been in the Pack as parents for a few years.. Add to this a Troop that strangely seems too friendly to the pack.. They are also in trouble, they seem not to be able to keep their boys more then two years as their program doesn't interest older boys, so this bind with the Pack is not good for them.. In a span of 2 months the Troop has like 4 things they want to be apart of.. Two that are cub scout events, two that are boyscout events they have invited the cub scouts to.. Perhaps it is just the time of year.. I mean it is close to crossover time so, yeah they would be at the crossover and at least invite the Webs to some troop outing. I am looking at this Pack as a clean slate, a great place for new ideas and new blood to be creative. Yet between the two parents from the Pack and the Troop, I am finding this "We've always done it this way" creeping in, it is like I am working with leaders who have run the Pack for the last 10 years and are in a rut.. The new Cub Master is in agreement that alot of this "in a rut" and Pack/Troop bond, is not healthy.. But, I guess when you are in the Pack/troop and just sink with it into a comfortable rut it is hard to see until you look back at it.. Yet when you are in basically a start from scratch unit, and want to be creative and imaginative, the words "We've always Done it this way", is kindof grating.. So, would you consider your unit in a rut or not? If your unit has dodged this bullet, what would you credit for this success?

Something.

All I'm saying is you were sounding as if your saying we already have local option, and National putting in Local option is basically forcing units to accept homosexuals no matter if their personality would cause you not to accept a volunteer who wereheterosexual but otherwise had a similar openess about their sexuality.. But, the local option you "think" we have is not something that we have.. Right now it is not the choice of the CO, unless the CO keeps their homosexual members a very big secret.. Because the council can force the CO to remove a volunteer who is a wonderful addition to their unit, simply because they have become aware of their sexual orientation, even if they are execellent Adult leaders and role models for the youth. If you would be comfortable with Cambridgeskip's homosexual leader, then you would be comfortable with national allowing the local option.. Because that is what the local option would give you.

You are wrong twocub, both councils and national have fought units and religious institiutions that want to be more inclusive.. If a unit wants to be inclusive, they can not proclaim so on their website and all their members must keep the vow of silence away from their council, unless the council also is known to be against the policy.. Jenifer Tyrell was removed by the council.. Here is a story on a council fighting with a catholic church forcing the CO to drop a homosexual http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/boy-scouts-remove-gay-leader-from-catholic-scout-troop/ It was the council who recently forced a unit to drop it inclusive statement on it's website. The council welds power over the CO by threatening to revoke their charter.. Either remove the homosexual, or we will remove the whole unit and thereby remove them ourselfs.. National is known to become heavy handed about any rogue councils who do not want to enforce the policy to kick out any "known" homosexual.. If by descrete you mean not admiting their sexuality at all, hiding their significant other (who could be their spouse).. Well then that is way too descrete.. How would you like to hide your wife in a closet and never speak of her at a scout meeting or allow her to attend a court of honor?.. Being descrete is only fair by allowing them the freedom of being as open about their relationship as you are, no more, no less.. You would be tossed out if you wanted to describe to your scout your intimite bedroom exploits, so would a homosexual scout or leader.. DigitalScout, I know of Councils who are fighting this policy (and getting slapped down by National).. But, my council to my knowledge has done nothing that lets me know which way they lean.. They haven't openly declared rebelling against the policy, nor do I know of them forcing a unit to remove homosexuals from their units, or remove inclusive statement they have made to websites or the media.. I think in NH we are a delicate balance of half conservative, and half liberal.. The "Live Free or Die" slogan swings both ways.. We have legalized same sex marriages, and though not done by popular vote, polls show it is supported by about 60% of our citizens.. Yet we are equally split between republicans & democrats, and are surrounded by states much more liberal then us.. Twenty years ago when my son was small, I was an oddity to be a working mother, most mothers stayed home. That has changed drastically since then.. Cambridgeskip's co-leader, may not have been open on the first day of meeting people in the unit she was volenteering in.. But, she did not hide all signs of it, and allowed people to learn about her and her significant other over time.. Here in the US, if any adult leader acted that way, they may risk the CO kicking them out, but if someone who wanted them removed from their position due to their sexual orientation did not get the results they wanted from their CO, they then could complain to their Council, and the Council could lean on the CO to remove them or revoke their charter if they did not.

I agree with Rick too.. The conservative "rules" were NOT there from the creation of BSA.. I would also like to add that conservative family values, is not the only type of family values seen as the only values to instill in our youth. It seem like when conservatives bring up family values, it has to be "conservative" or it just plain isn't valuable.

No TwoCub, our policy is not "If you are discreet".. it is, "If anyone finds out".. The den leader that was booted out this summer, was not because she was teaching the tiger scouts about sex, or that she was hitting on the mothers of the Tiger scouts.. It was because someone reported her as being homosexual.. The one kicked out of scouts because he was picked up by his significant other, and did nothing but get into a car with another man, was kicked out because someone asked, and another scout leader told him it was his boyfriend.. If he didn't ask and recieve an honest answer the guy he got into the car with could have just been a friend, brother or cousin.. The guy who was popcorn kernal for a unit, was kicked out because someone knew he "was", it was not because he was fluanting his sexuality with every box of popcorn sold.. If Cambridgskip gay leader was here in the USA, she would be out on her ear, because eventually it was realized she "was".. You can kick out a heterosexual for improper sexual behavior around the scouts, so too can you kick out a homosexual... But, improper sexual behavior is not saying something like "Let me introduce you to my husband." It is not improper if said by a femail adult leader, it is equally not improper if said by a male adult leader.. Don't ask, Don't tell is basically, "If we find out the truth, your out."

Thanks Cambridgeskip, you throw a bucket of reality upon the flames of panic & fear..

I kind of mentioned this, but will clarify.. I stated in the OP, " Anyway, I guess our DE (or really the membership chair, with the DE's blessings) trying for the unobtainable, pushed the District Committee".. To clarify, the person who runs the membership chair post, was the one who announced the task assignment. You could tell the District committee chair and the DE knew about what he was proposing and backing him all the way. The DC and the membership chair are close friends, are from the same troop, and came to the district committee at the same time both deciding it was time to step down from the unit and both looking for what they could still do in scouts outside the unit.. So you could say the MC had the DC's full blessing with this task.. The DE, just definately had heard about it, and was behind the effort 100%.. Don't know which of the three thought it up.. Any way, just so you know, although our DE can get excited about things, and maybe will back things a bit heavily, he doesn't run the committee.. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Yes you will get differing opinions.. Mine is that there may have been things to hold him back for, but your BOR members were out of line to give him a task to preform of mentoring the young SPL.. The BOR has no authority to assign tasks. Mentoring the new SPL is not a requirement to meet a rank.. As for the sloppy handling of the Oath and law and answers like I don't know.. Hmmm.. This may be a reason to ask him to return when better prepared.. But, I would ask if the BOR is being harder on this scout for some reason, or if this is the bar they set for all Life scouts.. You stated the following "I could see that as more of a teaching opportunity and something to keep in mind for the next BoR.".. But, that is the crux of hte matter, and why you expect much more from a life scout then the lower ranks.. For your troop BOR's this is the last one you will hold with him.. Therefore the highest standard set should be at this BOR.. But it should be a gradual incline, expecting a little more at each rank. You should allow the scouts to be equally sloppy at each BOR, except for Life which you then expect perfection. His next BOR will be for Eagle, at the District BOR (not your troops).. Do you want him going to that sitting down to do the oath & law, and answering questions with the ever meaningful "I don't know" answers... They may pass him, but they will not be impressed with him and get the impression your troop is very slack in preparing your scouts for Eagle.. Others will tell you the BOR is just a rubber stamp and should pass a scout no matter how bad they flubb up.. I just am not one of them who believes that.

Absolutly like the DE and is not our intent to cause him more problems.. One of the reasons, we are asking the question as to who to send it to.. Our thoughts were along the lines of Nike, in sending to the person handing out the dingbat goals, but I see your reasoning twocub that it may just cause the DE problems rather then help the matter.

I am writing the question for my husband.. He would like to complain to whoever sets the DE number goals for things, but not sure if that is the SE at the council, or someone in National.. Last week we had a big blowup at our District committee meeting.. I think(hope) through emails and such that is mostly ironed out, we may still loose a few volunteers.. Bottom line what it came down to is the DE was given basically an unobtainable goal to raise the number of scouts in his district by 500.. Me, if given something unobtainable, I would not even try, you get what you get.. If they gave me a challenge that was obtainable, then I would strive to reach it, but if unreasonable it would do the opposite.. Anyway, I guess our DE (or really the membership chair, with the DE's blessings) trying for the unobtainable, pushed the District Committee a wee bit too much, and they kindof bolted.. I drove home with 3 family members miffed about how things were handled at the meeting.. (basically the DE was going to assign the other district members to some membership tasks..) Small things, but still people took offense. I was one of the few not upset, what was asked was a few minutes on the phone to two units asking questions from a questionaire.. Now that things have settled down, my husband is somewhat seeing things through the DE's eyes (somewhat).. He doesn't want to do membership work, but he sees the DE felt squeezed to do something to try to optain his goals. As the DE says, he has been in the position for two years, and our district has over that time been raised from a very low position to one of the top districts in the council and in total, he has not brought in 500 new scouts.. He seems, desperate to try, even though if the same unreasonable goals were given to all districts, i doubt any district is going to make those goals.. Anyway, now my husband has decided he wants to write a complaint letter to who ever came up with thes bone-headed goals.. He just doesn't know who that would be. Anyone have an idea who makes up these District / Council goals??? As for the district finding people to work on membership, I suggested some of the stuff could be done using the Unit Commissioners rather then the District board members Alot of it is reaching out to get information from the units and take it to the District.. I told them as a UC, I see my job as the go between of unit & district and making sure communication is smooth between the two groups.. But, I don't see that as a job for a training chair or Advancment chair guy.. From some email that went out I think that is now the direction they will be going in, although I bet it will be more a "This is the problem, we hope some of you will be willing to help", rather then "Surprise! You have been voluntold!"..

Why would we fight or boycott something that is a good thing for the organization to do? When they were refusing to change, the ones who did not want to change had no problem with telling us the reason they would not change was the financial backing of LDS churches.. It was no problem the organization wouldn't change due to groups financially backing this policy.

LOL Sailingpj.. Most the other programs get updated uniforms, but your right, I don't understand the optional uniform thing.. Well, at least your shiny brass will look nice at the bottom of the ocean. The fish will appreciate that.

(as Scooby would say) Rots of Ruck RartlettRear!!! I know Council could back date, we have done it when the paperwork to register is done but not turned in to council for a few months.. But, I am shocked the council would even offer to back date years back.. Basically if he did everything without being registered, he may have learned alot, but unfortunately he didn't earn any Scouting ranks. He officially has not even earns the Scout rank, let alone any rank in-between Scout and Eagle if not registered. This isn't something that locally the council can turn a blind-eye and hand out this award. This award is only given out by National and national needs paperwork IN THE SYSTEM, on when he earned what ranks and merit badges.. National will not hand out the award to someone who has never been a scout. If you don't want to be associated with scouting, you shouldn't want to earn scouting awards! That just kind of is mind boggling.. It's the mother you have to break the facts to. That is obvious.. But, how would you get through to someone who seems that thick headed???

I am working to resurrect a Pack that was close to failing.. We may have 6 to 12 boys for the PWD... The Pack has no money, in fact come to find out last year boys earned awards and with no money were given "IOU"'s... So I did some home made awards made out of felt and lots of odds and ends of crafty stuff I had around the house, fabric markers etc... Each boy will get a different award.. If you surf there are lists of different awards.. Don't remember all that I choose, but beside "fastest car", there was "best paint job", "most distinguished car", "mean Machine", "Judges choice", "Most Resourceful car" (It was to be held this month where the theme of the month is Resourcefulness, so the boys were challenged to use what they have around the house to build their cars before going out to buy materials..

Our Cub camps have for a long time now, has done weekend Family camping (Parents, cubs, siblings) throughout the summer. Is that different? It was there in the 90's when my son was a cub and continues still. The camps are struggling to stay open, so I can see them opening to sibs in order to generate more revenue.

I remember someone posting about a year or so back.. I believe he was a youth, and did admit he was still in scouting, just not coming out.. "You know, the closeted homosexual, that we are suppose to accept, because they are not openly gay".. Some of our conservative scouters called him every name in the book, and acted like he was lower then pond scum.. Yet they say things like "Truely we respect them, just not near us".. I didn't blame him for not returning to the forum. It was not this forum's finest moment..

I also once lived in IL.. went to Elmhurst College and lived a few years in Bolinbrook after college.

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