moosetracker

The numbering of pages is always off.. May be off by 1 page or many pages.. To see the real amount of pages chenge the page number to say 2 (even if thread only shows 1 page.) Then the true number of pages will show up and you can then reset the page number to the last page of the thread.. This is the quickest way I can find the missing pages. Someone else may have a better suggestion.

Well dkurtenbach, if we require the local option choice to be under new title A or new title B.. As I stated before, you still will have the mix of the two groups at summer camp, round tables, camporees etc.. Perhaps at roundtable though you will have your breakout sessions of each group in a different room.. Perhaps each group will get a new uniform change, or maybe just a change in their epillet colors, so you will know who to avoid if they are wearing their class A uniforms.. That's about it.

AZMike - Sorry, I disagree with you.. If we allow in Christian Scientists and there is a unit who is chartered by them and they want to follow their beliefs (be it medicine or what not) we do not force them to conform to a conservative Christian practice.. Likewise, if you had a member who was a christian Scientist in your group and HE broke HIS leg, you would not force him to go to the hospital against his beliefs and adament protests against it.. It is called being reverent of their beliefs. Merlyn why would an atheist be a member of a religion? Do you mean that they were raised in a certain faith but no longer believe or practice it?.. I thought we did allow in Buddhiest and other religions even if their belief in God is practically non-existant. Not sure about pagans, but we should, if you can believe in a rock then that is just as good as believing in the power of sacraficing a chicken, or believing that Satan is a higher power.. After all, all you have to believe in is that something is of a higher power. I don't think I have seen anything that your higher power has to be dressed in white rather then black or red.. Wouldn't be surprised if BSA did not though, probably one of those unwritten rule things..

So we are to hold two Woodbadge courses per year in our council, one for those who accept homosexuals and one for those who do not?.. At what cost? Why when right now the WB course is for all programs, CS, BS, Varsity, Venturning, and Sea Scouts?.. And it would be the same course.. Who will go out and rebuy all the camps sold off so that they don't intermingle at camps? Where will you find the extra District level volunteers to host two seperate camporees and trainings etc? Split the money from donations?? You first have to get them to stop intermingling the LFL donations with the rest of the scouting programs.. Forget it, most councils have a difficult time pulling together enough volunteers to keep the current program afloat.. But, I do see some benefits also, after all.. The group that is inclusive will be able to add back in scouting groups chartered by schools and other public organizations.. Of course to do this, our inclusiveness would have to be more then homosexuals.. But, why not?.. It seems ridiculous to make such a move as having every unit choose which name they want to be name A or name B, just because 1 or 2 homosexuals just may join your group and not have to hide their spouse or significant other in order to be a leader.. Of course that would mean camporees and scout camps intermingled with not only homosexuals, but girls and athiests and people with green hair or rings in their noses..

I never said scouting would explode with the change, more like we will drop in numbers then slowly grow, most likely if we change we will be stronger for it 10 years from now and going forward.. I don't think there are millions chomping at the bit to join scouting when they change the policy.. It is more likely many never became interested in the program because of it and so found some other program to have their children join.. I would not leave if it doesn't happen this time around, I will stay and continue to be a voice which pushes for the change.. After all, even if we don't win, it is obvious we are winning, the cracks are in the walls and they are getting bigger everyday. I see your plan just dividing which units choose to go with the traditional scouting program (whatever it be called) and those units that decide to go with the new program (whatever it be named..) and people of those units deciding based upon the units decision to choose to either jump ship or stay.. Basically the same effects a local option, only you are under different names, because the program is the same, the camporees are the same, the camps you go to are the same.. The only thing that differs is if you are inclusive to all, or not.. The new inclusive program will bring in more donations, but like with life-long learning, BSA will go after donations by highlighting their inclusive programs and hiding their discriminatory programs under the rug.. But when the money comes in it will be used for all of the scouting programs evenly, especially since we are still using the same camps, and professional services equally.. Wow, it is the local option, exactly.. Only with you stating which local option your unit chose up front by putting it in your title..

That is sad news.. My condolences to his family & friends.. His voice on this forum will be missed.

Interesting this is a fine policy with you MikeAZ.. Like Venturing the programs would mix & shuffle at camporees and summer camps... The district & Council volunteers & professional staff will need to support both, and being limited in staff and camp property, it will simply be practicle to combine them into merged events.. OH, NO.. Gays would still be at your camporees and camps !!! What will you do?? (oh yeah, they are there, you just are blissfully ignorant of who they are) Seriously, a troop down the street that will accept gays has you up in arms if they are still called Boy Scouts, But a troop down the street that is called Scouts of America is fine to accept gays, because you are the Boys of America not the Scouts of America.. In the rest of the program you are the same, and still share the same camporees & scout camps & training..

Well that is why I said "more like", as out of the 20 interpretations of the passage, they might have the correct interpretation as the writer intended.. But, then does the writer have the correct interpretation of what God or Jesus intended, or the original writer wrote in the original scrolls... Or is the Bible your reading from a more modernized revision, where the writer revised an English version to be more current English, but in so doing reinterpreted the Bible himself.. So even getting the correct interpretation of what the writer wrote, does not mean you have the correct interpretation...

A bible thumper is not simply a religious person, who has personal beliefs. But, a person who must enforce thier beliefs on others by quoting from the bible, and then interpreting (more like mis-interpreting as every passage has dozens or more different interpretations) it's meaning to bend it to their beliefs.. Then insisting that not only they must follow this narrow minded interpretation, but everyone in the world must follow it also..

How is a Bible Thumper reverent to others beliefs if he has to enforce their belief on others?.. How are they teaching reverent, if they can not be reverent themselves? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

hmm.. editing went a little buggy.. I tried to edit last post so that "voting" in the first line was changed to "voters".. But it wouldn't let me save my edit unless I entered a title? (not the comment of why I was changing it, but a title..) Yet, although I had an entry field to add a title, it wouldn't let me put anything into that entry field.. Well at least the bugs that wouldn't let me log in last week are gone.. Yet still pretty buggy.. I should get myself a jar with a lid with holes punched in it.. I might catch me some rare specimens in the weeks to come.

We had someone at our District committee meeting who has been elected to go to National for the vote.. I didn't realize those voting had to physically go to Texas to do so.. Sounds like he is not voting for the council either, but had to come up with his decision on how to vote on his own, because he has been researching to figure out how he should vote.. My initial thought (I admit I was stereotyping), was that his vote would be to keep the policy as it is, because he is very old I'm guessing in his 80's (and I may be being charitable at that), and very religious.. While he didn't openly say which way he will vote, the passage he read out of the boy scout handbook lead me to believe it will be for the local option.. More on the reasoning that "Don't ask, Don't tell" goes against the BSA vision of what it means to be morally straight. It was a very different viewpoint then any I have heard debated on this forum.. From the breakdown of the meaning of the Scout Oath. (Chapter3, page 46 of the BS handbook may be off a page or two for different versions.) ... and morally straight. To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and rmain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance. Then he went back and reread a few times the phrase, "You should be honest and OPEN with your relationships with others..", and really highlighted this phrase.. I forget how, but at least for me, he drew a correlation that "Don't ask, Don't tell", is a policy that requires people to be anything but honest and open.. It says if you are a homosexual, we will accept you in as long as you are not honest with us.. It promotes something that goes against what we state the meaning of morally straight is.. Now, if our policy was that which stated that homosexuals should be open and honest about their sexual preferences and stay 200 yards back from any ongoing BSA event, how he would vote.. But, my conclusion is that based on the fact that the current policy is that of “Don’t ask, Don’t tellâ€Â.. In good conscious he must vote against the BSA continuing with this policy.. Considering so many have used the “Morally Straight†phrase as the reason why the current policy should be maintained.. Who have basically defined “Morally Straight†to mean, you are heterosexual, not homosexual.. This viewpoint was a unique perspective for me.. Well I really shouldn’t have been all that surprised at this gentlemen’s perspective, this guy is very young at heart, just trapped in a body that is aging. He still looks at the world as a place where he can learn new things and has always been open to different viewpoints.. That he evolved on this topic along with the rest of the world, I really should not have been that surprised. But, I admit, I was. By the way, anyone else handpicked by their council to go to National to personally cast their vote?.. Anyone know if it is one per council, or one per district or what? Is everyone who is going allowed to vote their own mind on the matter, or are some to vote as the representative of the council, and vote their viewpoint.. (I would imagine, they would basically choose someone they know is like-minded with whatever their viewpoint is, that being the case.)

who says all who vote a preference for the policy to remain the same will walk, Huzzar?.. That's like saying that the 70% (currently 67%) who vote in favor of the local option will walk if the BSA vote to keep the policy unchanged.. So if that is correct, then I ask you Huzzar, can BSA afford 67% of it's membership to walk?

Well, at least I can log back in now. Sometime last week, it started prompting for my password everytime I came to the site with some message it was open only to members. One or two times it let me log into the site that way, then it would not log me in.. Didn't tell me why just kept reprompting me for my username/ password.. Figured, I was voted out of being a real, REAL member or something.. This time let me in and I wandered around a little not realizing I wasn't logged on.. If your not logged in, you get page buttons on the bottom of the page, Sortof like the page buttons we had on the outside of the thread so you could start out right on the page you want to be on. I think the "Post Reply" that you get when logged in must cover up the feature for members.. Also I do not know if it was a fluke or a feature non-members get that members do not.. When I entered the thread as a non-member, it immediatly said on the top that there were 7 pages to the thread.. When I came back as a member, it said there was only 1 until you played around with the page option to get it to show the hidden other 3 pages. Anyway, I did want to state it was nice that we have back the visual on the "latest topics" of time and person who last posted to it. That helps.. Not sure if "latest topics" is showing all the right stuff though. Like it didn't show this thread, though last post was ssscout at 11:17 pm yesterday.. And did show some threads not posted to since 03/07, 03/03, 02/28, 02/27 etc.. It only shows one other thread posted by SSScout yesterday.. Since it isn't showing this thread posted yesterday, it has me not trusting that the "latest topics" is really being honest with me..

Hmmm... You get a recent topics??? I just get an error in that area for about a week.

This morning around 5am, I came in and was shocked to see our 24 hours almost like our old 24 hours.. At least it was showing on the outside of the post the user who last posted and the time they last posted... So I came to this very Thread to say "Whoo Hoo!!!" and my post wouldn't go through when I came out the system was down, and when it came up our 24 hours was totally broken.. "Boo Hoo".. I was so... hopeful !!!

Merlyn treats me just fine, I know he treats others here fine also, then he gets a little heated with others, but normally over a arguement or statement they are making.. If you feel you have had that treatment from him Brewmeister, I would question what you may have said to Merlyn to get such a reaction.

Well that was a long winded tirade about nothing.. I did not say it was a settled issue if homosexuals are more likely, least likely or equally likely.. I will say the majority of research has proved homosexuals ARE NOT more likely, but some research will side with you.. The scientists with the odd results, I will not automatically label quacks, though I prefer the majority of the research, which disproves the results of the few.. Who I said I would highly question their standing with other psychologists is any scientist who state ALL pedophiles whose victimize young boys are due to molester being a homosexual.. Which is what you stated. Those scientist can be filed away in history with the scientist who tried to prove that black people where linked more to apes then the human species, had lower intelligence, and could not survive without the guiding hand of a master..

So are you saying rapist of women or children who are nice and whisper sweet things, and ask "Do you like it?" are not being violent... Sorry, you are dead, dead wrong! A women or child does not need to be killed or cut up to the point of deformity for rape to be a violent act against them.. Nor, for the rapist to gain a sense of power and control over them. Also prepubescent boys and girls are not men & women.. Sorry again you are wrong.. Do you also believe that if a women is truely raped she can shut her reproductive system down? And if a women is being raped since she can't do anything about it she should just lie back and enjoy it? But, wait a minute those two words of wisdom contradict each other, if they lie back and enjoy it, then by the other persons words of wisdom, they are no longer being raped, for they are then a willing participant.. I mean unless the women kicks and screams and fights then per wise guy #1 it really isn't rape at all...

Welcome Arronaf, I hope your post means you are planning to post and become an interactive member of the forum.. New ideas are always welcomed.

clarification to my comment about no scientists will state all pedophiles of boys are homosexual - I meant respected scientists.. I am sure you could wrestle up names of some quacks that no one but the homophobic would take seriously. Strange.. I wanted to edit my original post, but although it let me try to edit, the changes would not take.. Tried 3 times..

Boys are not men, AZMike.. You are very wrong that all pedophiles of boys must be homosexual or they would not be interested in boys. This is very, very flawed logic that not even scientists who attempt to prove homosexuals are more likely to... will wander into.. Pedophiles are not interested in sex, they are not aroused by sex.. They are aroused by control and power over someone weaker then they are.. I do not believe you can convert homsexuals by forcing them into therapy, but I do feel that people can change.. Sometimes homosexuality in young people is no more the sexual experimentation.. Sometimes people are bi-sexual, and yet when they truely fall in love they can make a commitment, this could be to a heterosexual partner or a homosexual partner.. But, some people simply are not and can not be heterosexual.. And forcing them into therapy does more harm then good, especially threrapy that has been uncovered to be either torturous or does damage to their self-esteem. Either the person needs to choose the path for themselves or it is just counter-productive.

What?? The molestation by our past straight scout leaders where BSA's records has now been opened up to public isn't something that is hurting BSA's image, but one single act by a gay scout leader in the future will have them running for the hills??? Huh! I didn't know that it mattered "who" molested the children.. If your straight that's not too bad, just don't be gay...

I think dcsimmons is more afraid of showering with "those gays guys" himself (adult leaders with adult leaders).. Only trouble is, he already does, it is just they are there but having to be more quiet about their sexual preferences.. Sort of the idea that being ignorant, means you can "pretend" you are in a "gay free" zone..

My son is 22 and still in scouts.. But at Tiger cubs, he was not so thrilled.. Part of it was that I had signed him up, and my son at 5 or 6 was already rebelling against a parents guidance.. My husband, an eagle scout and wanting him in Boy scouts but not so sold on the cub scout thing, feared his rebellion about being in Cub scouts would sour him from trying boy scouts later in life. But, few boys join boys scouts who did not join Cub scouts as by then they have found some other path of interest. The solution was that he stayed in cub scouts through Tiger and go to summer camp. After summer camp, if he wanted to leave scouting it was his choice. Well after summer camp he was hooked and stayed in it as his own choice. I do not know if it was summer camp, or the fact that it was his choice and not his mother's, or a little bit of both. Well, for normal kids I agree with AKdenLeader.. Introduce the scout to the activity, with the added advice you do your part to make sure the program is of interest to him.. But I doubt I need to give that advice I foresee a father who is eager to take on the Tiger Den Leader position. But, if you have a son like mine who is already showing his desire to make his own decisions.. Then, I would just suggest you talk it up, maybe ask the Pack in the area about some outside activity they may be doing that you can take your son to in order for him to see the other kids having fun, so he will want to join into the group.. Anyway, find ways to allow it to be his decision although you may have engineered ways that he came to that decision.