moosetracker

I don't mind a church being able to kick out gays, if it is against their beliefs.. As long as other units can welcome them.. Don't care for the mandatory part of the half & half vote... Would have much preferred it just to go to local option for Adults & youth.. That was a half & half vote, but one more of us who don't need to poke our noses into other units business would have been able to live with.. but your right, were not happy yet, because we just got a change that made no one happy..

Yeah DigitalScout (wink, wink)

Hmmmm... I thought they said the program wasn't going to be "churchy".. So although a correct interpretation, I take it the info in post 27, Basement showed me is "reading between the lines".

Actually, the last time I looked there was no rule that Jewish people could not celebrate Christmas, and some Jewish people do to some degree, mostly the secular aspects of the holiday. I celebrate it too, but that doesn't count so much since my wife is a Catholic. First of all, it is "yarmulke", though you can't be faulted for spelling it phonetically. Second, anyone is allowed to wear one, though I suppose if you wear one in church that would be contrary to the general rule that you are supposed to have your head uncovered in church. A visiting Baptist man would be welcome to wear one in a synagogue. (For that matter, in many Reform synagogues a visiting Baptist woman would be ok wearing one too.) I believe the Pope wears one as well, and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes. And just for informational purposes, the majority of Jewish people (including me) do not wear one except at religious services or at other "religious times." For example I wear one when visiting the grave of my father and other Jewish relatives. Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.) Picky, Picky, Picky... And that shows me to not go and look up the spelling of something on the internet.. I didn't trust myself to spell it right, so I looked it up and then got it wrong.. I did know that most of you don't wear it outside of church, because I know several Jews and they don't wear it all the time.. Anyway you know what I am getting to, People of different faiths don't go around forcing entry into other religion unless they feel welcomed, certain things they will be welcomed and join in.. But, they wont insist on doing something that will be frowned upon by either their group or the other group.

So is that statement of everyone having to except JC as their Lord & Savior.. A real statement in their rules, or is that just someone reading between the lines what they put in their rules.. That's truly laughable if that is the actual statement in writing..

Maybe with the other religions (maybe not).. But the gay thing is what BSA has been trying to pull for the last 10 years and it didn't work for them. Doubt it will work any better for TL.. With the other religions, I am not sure it will work either.. That's because if your an adult and not Christian, your son can come, but you as an adult can not be a leader.. Not sure how they put it.. Doubt they present it as the fact that they don't think anyone is of good moral standing if they are not Christian.. But reading the posts where the wolfs circled the LDS person who was insisting LDS was a Christian religion.. I got the feeling that is the truth of it.. Non-Christians are just as much sinners as homosexuals.. But, I would imagine other religions won't knock on their door, they will just stay away.. Religions really don't actively try to be accepted into organizations that are clearly for some other religion.. You don't see Jews insisting Christmas be open to all, or Baptist insisting that the yamaka be something everyone should be able to wear..

Basement, same here.. That must be a bible belt thing. We do have the LDS not mingling.. But, if you mingle with them one on one, very nice people.. And at least in our district, I know that their is attempts to include them, invite them and let them know they are welcome.

Yeah, the ideas to make a faith more lighter and just get an understanding of everyones faith, or how to run a proper interfaith prayer or program is the way to go.. The emblem thing is wrong in so many ways.. First - It is not only the atheist you need to be concerned with, but the boy/family who believe in something, but do not belong to any formal religious group.. That means no religious emblem for "I believe in something".. That would be ALOT of your scouts.. Second - as a troop guide, although I would be fine with a ticket of "to help our Scouts recognize the role that faith takes in Scouting". Which if that is how you worded it, that is smart, you can take that anywhere, and don't need 100% compliance by all the boys in your group.. Including using the different meaning for faith.. I would not have approved a ticket that had the boys in your den all earning their emblems.. For a lot of reasons.. First, as stated, not all boys can do it.. Second - It is a very personal, long and complicated journey.. though you can encourage it, you can't force it. The boy should have a personal desire to earn it, or it has about as much meaning a homework.. Third - A ticket should never be written where you depend on others to do something or you fail.. It should be something that you have control over at all times.. Something like get a group together, or increase adult leaders trained in my pack are one thing.. But it's another to write it that you will get all your adults 100% trained, or get all the boys to do something.. You can get a group even if it ends up a group of two out of what in your minds eye was 20 or more when writing the ticket, but you can't get everyone to comply, someone is bound to disappoint, and your ticket then rides on their actions and not your actions.

Strangely I and the CM have informed the District commissioner and the District Exec.. We have a new DC, AND and new DE.. The old DC & DE would have been ALL OVER THIS.. These two.. Nothing.. So what will be will be..

If that's all that's on him, it is pretty unimpressive. *yawn*

Perhaps movie night for the kids (if the church has the equipment.. Otherwise we are out in the country, so no playgrounds, and no McDonalds.. I can't offer my house, as I don't live in the neighborhood of this Pack, so they won't travel to my house either..

Everything is on the table.. I have told them that if they don't get adult volunteers then the Pack can't continue regardless of if they have the scouts for it or not.. First & second graders can't do a boy run Pack.. I came close to suggesting the CM work with the IH to close the troop.. I had sent out email to organize a meeting.. No response.. No response.. Sent more email.. No response.. I set a certain date and was going to call the thing dead after work, and there in my email were two responses after work.. One stating they had found interest to start the new Tiger Den (no adult leaders, just kids).. When I emailed back stating the kids weren't the problem it was the adults, I got an email back about 2 days later stating one of the Tiger parents would be a Den Leader.. So, again off on the merry go round.. To see if the Pack can be saved.. But, if they don't get the adult help, then I am not going to be a UC who runs a one man show while the parents do nothing.. I am looking for the time I can stop by once a month and ask "How's things going, then be on my way."

Well this meeting on Sunday is not for the entire Pack.. It's just for the small group of what's left to discuss what should be done, and how/when we will present it to the other parents that are left.. Being UC, I can make suggestions, but I don't think I should decide for the pack and implement it.. Especially something as forceful as mandatory parent participation.. I have seen a few with Pack Trainers from doing District training, but highly unlikely to have one if you only have 3 people in your committee.. The Pack in my home town which is very active has one.. The Den Chief idea would be a good one.. The Troop isn't much better off and the scouts are pretty young, don't know if they could manage watching 6 to 12 very young kids (dens are only Tiger/Wolf so 1st & 2nd graders).. I could check, there a year older then last year.. The 15 minute meetings after a Pack Meeting I could see to finish up anything that couldn't be done at a Web Conference, otherwise, 15 minutes is to short a time by the time you get them settled down & organized ( including finding something for the kids to be occupied with) you would have eaten up the time.. But perhaps figuring out these two need to personally meet on this before/after the Pack meeting and these three need to discuss this.. That would help.

That one seems kindof complicated, and may need a server.. I found this one.. http://anymeeting.com/ which if we let them advertise seems free.. But, boy those Ads sure bring down the price, so I am skeptical as to what the catch is.. Don't get to record, but no biggy, 200 in attendance way more then what I need.. Can we only use it for free 2 or 3 times?? Is there a limit in time (like only for 30 minutes then they shut you down?? I can't believe having them run banner ads is worth saving you $18 a month or $180 a year plus upping you attendance limit from 25 people to 200 people..

Does anyone know anything about this software?? http://openmeetings.apache.org/ Seems to be open source code.. Got it from this comparison chart.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_conferencing_software Seems it will run on Windows.. And will be good for up to 25 people.. Right now with 6 scouts in the wolf group and an estimated 6 from the wolfs.. Then possibly the IH & myself IF we got 100% participation that would only be 14 people needing to get on.. And 100% participation is dreaming.. Even when I was in a very active and populated troop the best attendance was about 12 people.. The Pack isn't flushed with money.. So I'm looking for free or very, very cheap..

So, a Pack I oversee is real close to folding due to lack of parent participation.. They have enough scouts, but the parents don't want to step up, and the pack limps without the parent involvement.. Some of it is the fact that people expect someone to do it for them, but some of it is that people can't go to a committee meeting when they have kids too young at home to leave without supervision.. Just before summer we had not quite the skeleton crew.. We had just lost the CC who moved away, but we had a CubMaster, 2 committee members and 2 Den leaders (pack only having 2 dens).. The two committee members didn't take on real jobs though they came to the committee meetings.. one though was good with recruiting being a 1st grade teacher in the local school, so that helped.. Well during the summer.. The Cubmaster moved away, 1 Den Leader left over the recent vote, 1 Den Leader didn't want to be DL anymore, the Committee member who could recruite moved to a different Pack because that den was only two kids and the other kid left because of his parents problem with the vote. That left one committee member who really didn't take on any jobs.. So now we have the potential to get some new scouts in a Tiger den in and even a den leader for it.. But the wolf den has no leader, no Cub Master, only 1 on the committee.... I'm suppose to be the UC of this group.. I know I am way to close and doing too much.. I kindof started last year doing the CC job until we had someone step up, I just had her trained and was stepping back, and she moved and I kindof ended up being CC again because the next committee meeting didn't happen since no one did anything to run it, so I ended up picking it up again.. So we are holding a meeting Sunday and the IH will be coming to it.. The one Committee member, the DL who stepped down, and the CM who is stepping down but willing to help train a new CM if we can find one (It's a 2 hour drive to come back to the area).. We are going to discuss implementing something where we ask one parent/guardian of each scout to step up and take on a role.. But, I know I will get the excuse that they can't make the committee meeting So any suggestions? I have two I am thinking about. 1) Find a way to do online committee meeting so people can stay home with kids and still be part of the meeting.. (Not sure how, don't need visual.. but would prefer voice over typing as typing would take a long time, and you loose a lot not hearing how people are stressing things are they excited or going through the motions that sort of thing..) 2) Find someone (in a group of people who don't want to do anything) to run a babysitting service while the meeting goes on so parents can bring the kids..) Anyone else have any ideas??

dcsimmons - I for one are happy to see them go, but still curious.. It's just the human nature of morbid curiosity.. I certainly wish them luck, but I don't see how.. I was curious about their rules against LDS, as although the religion is not my cup of tea, I always thought they were Christian.. I also thought they were pretty much in agreement with them on the homosexual issue.. I got to some forum thread where a woman from LDS tried to point out why they were Christian and a lot of people tore her religion to shreds.. I know we have also have discussed some frustration with LDS, but for the most part it is either because they don't mingle with us, or don't follow the normal BSA program. Pretty much disagreements on how we see BSA with how they see BSA.. I don't know of any time when we ripped their religion apart, because they follow not only the Bible, but the book of Mormons which makes them not Christian although they believe in Jesus Christ, but not the same way, so they are not Christian.. Blah, Blah.. Hmmmm... Well they may say they are Christian but welcome other religions, but if your another religion, I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to be shot, stuffed and cooked for dinner.. BSA is definitely better off without the people who were on that forum. But how they are going to be welcoming enough to increase in numbers, is a mystery to me.

Interesting DWise.. Now, my first YPT training was at the later half of the 1990's since my boy joined around 1995 or 1996.. Perhaps since it was a person to person training back then, it depended on the trainer how it was presented.. Ours was done by someone from the State police who was also into scouting.. The emphasis was on protecting the children.. But, like now you got a little about protecting yourself.. If you can't convince someone to do it for the kids, then you might convince them to do it for their own self interest.. That first Training is the one that sticks with me the best.. Perhaps it was because it was my first, but I also was awed by the attendance to listen to this trainer, I guess he was considered the best of the best at the time..

I think flaunt to them is our old "Don't ask, Don't Tell".. Which was a problem, because that meant "As long as no one finds out".. I got this from a link.. "Trail Life USA will be inclusive of boys, regardless of religion, race, national origin or socioeconomic status, and accept boys who are experiencing same-sex attractions or gender confusion," a statement from the group says. "However, it will not admit youth who are open or avowed about their homosexuality, and it will not admit boys who are not 'biologically male' or boys who wish to dress and act like girls." Interesting Trails Life says they welcome all religions, yet specify they are a "Christian" organization. So does that mean if your not Christian, they don't consider you a true religion? Curious what the little 1 next to it's yes is for.. Is it about the Christian/ all religion thing, or is it about those that are unchurched..

Agree with Scouter99 and skeptic.. Just adding the following to this comment of NeverAnEagle: "As it stands now, the Council staff are complicit in the abuse because they knew about it and allow it to continue. " Maybe you can make that accusation in past history, But now.. NO.. The YP rules are that you as the volunteer make the call to the police yourself and DSS if the abuse is the scouts family member.. THEN you call the Scout executive.. this has been in practice for at least 5 years, maybe longer,( I think it changed around the time of the Catholic priest scandal.). Anyway, the Council staff have no way to allow it to continue, if you follow the youth protection training. And as stated, they didn't allow it to continue which is why they were listed in the files

First link is no longer valid.. 2nd doesn't really say when the abuse happens, but I get a slight indication that it was not current, rather someone pulled the names out of the recently opened files and talked the boys (now men) into doing a lawsuit now. The 3rd link I didn't see any article on the boy scouts, closest story was phasing out a forestry program at Washington State college. As basementdweller stated.. Make sure your program follows the youth protection rules.. If you have a son in the program, the best thing as a parent is to volunteer in the program which allows you the ability to make sure the program is following safety procedures, and you know and trust those in direct contact leadership roles, or are at the event yourself to keep an eye on things if you have doubt about one of your leaders.

You got to be kidding!.. Why don't we enshrine the place the gun was bought. the car he drove to the assassination site with, the convience store LHO once bought a soda pop at.. etc, etc, etc... Now if we can do that to everyone whoever was a footnote in history, we can enshrine every place in America!

Your last line of "So what?" pretty much sums it up.. So, now I will have to agree with others that say it's time to wrap it up, because we are just going around in circles.. I got my answers.. I started out by stating that while certain atheists I would welcome, rules would have to be enacted to remove quickly those who can not show tolerance for other members beliefs or traditions.. Which you were offended that I would think any atheists would act in such a manner.. Yet when pointed out, as to when and where atheist have been intolerant you respond with, "So What".. or "free speech" or "it's not illegal".. Maybe, not.. but BSA's expectation of showing tolerance request that it be done voluntarily, not "you can take your intolerance up to the point where you legally cross the line.",..

No, I am commenting on billboards you put up that are A) around churches, B) disrespectful.. The one on the property was simply because it was on the property, proclaiming something disagreement with their ideas however tastefully done.. The message on the billboard is not the point on that one, even if it was an OK message, it would have ben NOT OK to have to thumb it at the enemy.. It would have been OK disconnected from any church, sitting on a highway, You want to talk about a message individually, the message statement is OK.. You want to talk about the message, and the need to place it ONLY where it can harass those you dislike, now we have a different discussion.. And yes, due to the placement and the fact that you placed it their with the intention to annoy or harass those you dislike.. Then not the message, but the placement of the message, is harassment.. Wrong again. David Silverman (current head of American Atheists) has stated many times that AA increases its membership from their billboard campaigns. And no, it's not "harassment", it's just a message you don't like. That's your problem . Coining a favorite phrase from Merlyn.. You don't get to dictate to people what is and is not harassing.. So you bring in more angry disagreeable souls with the signs. I can name some very bad organizations that are currently successfully advertising for new recruits, but will just let you think about that may be, as naming them may be going over the top.. Doesn't mean that your PR of "We hate religion, and feel we have a right to be as nasty and disagreeable as possible" campaign is winning the support of the American majority, those who are religious or simply those who don't but believe to live and let live.. Including many many who also consider themselves atheists, but will loudly proclaim they are not part of your movement, and feel the need to apologize for it. Many of these billboards were forced to be taken down, (or moved in the case of the one on the church property..) Due to being DISRESPECTFUL..

That one would have been ok.. I was more thinking about billboards with the following statements "CHRISTIANITY: Sadistic God; Useless Savior 30,000+ Versions of "Truth" Promotes Hate, Calls it "Love" or "MORMONISM: God is A Space Alien Baptizes Dead People Big Money, Big Bigotry" I'm not defining your end game.. I'm just trying to understand it.. As stated I have heard 3 things.. heard to get into the BSA, and I also heard to have people except you as moral upright citizens and neighbors, and to separate church & state.. The separate church and state, I get.. Maybe to get that one, you have to accept that it contradicts the goals for the other two, and make them unobtainable.. If your good with that, just go for it, and stop complaining that the other two are getting no traction.. The other stuff wasn't discrimination at all, just plain harassment.. There was nothing that would be gained by your group by doing it.. The billboards were not going to further you separation of church and state, and it definitely wasn't going to win your group respect for your anti-beliefs etc.. And the discount at the restaurant didn't have anything to do with excluding atheists as I stated.. OK, so that's that.. your only going for the Church/State thing.. The rest is just noise.. That was what I was trying to understand..