moosetracker

Can you say lawsuit?? Quackery is never a good thing. Says with counseling with parents, hopefully that means allowing the parents the ability to tell them to take a flying leap before they every say one word to the child.. Even still, if the parents decide you made things decidedly worse, they can still sue. Some thread a while back said LDS was thinking they would use BSA for this purpose if they by chance netted a likely candidate.. Hopefully they have rethought this as LDS only have LDS members in their scout programs 99.9% of the time, so they can just do it through the church without involving BSA in their eventual lawsuits..Because I find it hard to believe that that .01% of scouts who is not an LDS member would happen to be a homosexual youth.

Well that might be a BSA reason not to consider him a good Leader, because aside from forcing everyone to abide by the conservatives view about homosexuals, you have the freedom to decide what Leaders by the traits your unit considers is or is not a good role model.. But, TLUSA is more tightly defining it to rule out any liberal thinking religions, and those religions that are not Christian or they just do not like.. So you can't go with the viewpoint of looking at the fact all religions view marriage and divorce differently, it has to be their way or the highway.. But, your right about it not being my organization, so who cares.. We were just guesstimating how large the group would get when your inclusiveness is very ,very limited and restrictive. In that light, how small their net is influenced by the meaning behind not having any physical relations with anyone out of wedlock, and lifelong commitment is part of the equation.. I do know conservative religions definitely frown on divorce.. Liberal religions are the ones that are more understanding.. Definitely a divorced person is a poor role model.. But, hey if you want to say whatever you are signing here has not meaning what-so-ever.. Everyone is welcome, then I don't understand what the reason was to leave the BSA over this issue.

Pack18Alex.. None of that would get many complaints from any of the scouters who have voice frustration for LDS.. First off you come to events, Big plus.. Second if these are the rules of your unit, and you are not forcing all other units to have a Saturday religious service or stop Campsite construction 18 minutes b4 sundown, then your fine.. (question - what happens to the scout who doesn't have a pitched tent, does he sleep out in the rain?) You didn't state anything about the commitment of your unit leaders, or if they get trained and put on a good program allowing a good boy-led program.. Which isn't a grumble due to religion, because Eagle Mills and troops with no direction are equally complained about regardless of your religious views.. That is just people loving the program and not wanting boys to go through it bored out of their minds and counting of their checklist of how much more is left to do before they can get Eagle and get out of this tedious requirement forced on them by a parent or a church.. If you have certain religious policy, I don't believe anyone would disrespect you for it, as long as you were not forcing everyone to follow your religious policies.. I think since LDS has softened up on it's insistence that homosexuals not be allowed into BSA and it is more the conservative evangelicals and Catholics I haven't seen too many spout off about LDS on that front.. I also agree with SR54Beaver, there are times when the Church assigns someone who WANTS to be an adult leader in BSA, or came to the assignment wanting to learn it and do it right and it did grow into something they enjoyed.. Those people I have know, do give 110 to 200 percent to the program, and they run fantastic troops.

Hey, this lifelong isn't my belief.. Mine is "Until death do us part." (Not that I have husband #2 lined up for if my husband kick off in soon..).. Perhaps you guys do have it interpreted correctly.. But to me a Lifelong commitment by me, means my life, not your life.. But, I do not quite get the conservatives anyway.. And I don't think I truly believe it, but it is a comfort to me..to think I will again meet my loved ones when I die.. Aside from meeting them on the other side though, I have no imagination as to what we would do after the hugging is over with.. Perhaps my mother might tell me of a few things she thought I did wrong and could have done better.. After that we all fade away into nothingness.. Perhaps I would be called back to be a door greeter to those who lived beyond me, until there is no one on earth who knows me.. Now if I had married a total SOB or an abusive father, I would hope God would not include him on my "loved ones" list, for them to either greet me, or me to have to come out of total oblivion to have to greet them. So I will concede that that you might have the right of it..

Well I know the liberal branch of Protestants understand there are good reasons for divorce, they will even remarry divorced people.. But, you should not enter into marriage lightly and shouldn't divorce lightly either.. If the statement TLUSA had stated somewhere in it something about believing in striving to meet these goals I would agree.. This statement, is totally unbendable, unbreakable fact that can not be broken regardless of anything even if there is abuse involved.. I am unsure if this statement comes from the conservative Protestant end. But, if this is what people have to sign to be a Leader in TLUSA, then written as it is, it becomes a very high bar for most people to get over.' As for Lifelong commitment before God between a man and a women.. Have you ever heard of life after death.. What are you going to do with your two wives or three husbands in heaven?? Even without heaven.. Life is life.. Lifelong commitment is different then "til death do us part" which is what people promise in their wedding vows, which allows a widow or widower to remarry..

WakWIB - "The way you folks can put words into people's mouths is nothing short of remarkable" Ok.. So how do you interpret "We are to reserve sexual activity for the sanctity of marriage, a lifelong commitment before God between a man and a woman. " Where is the wiggle room for a physical relationship before marriage, even if you do end up married. Divorced people, or people who have remarried either after Divorce or after the death of their first spouse.. Since according to you, I got the meaning of that statement wrong, you should clarify what it means to you.

tgrimstead - I wasn't even painting it with as wide a brush as TLUSA is suppose to represent, which they state is "Christian", not just Protestant.. But, narrowed it to Protestant because TLUSA seems to be more conceived by them.. Maybe this post seems to be hinting all protestants, but if you look at my other posts on this thread, I have definitely stated that not all Protestants fall into the same bucket.. So, what you are admitting is some of what I have stated, TLUSA is not for all Christians, nor for all Protestants.. It is only for Conservative Protestants.. Simply a very small piece of pie.. So TLUSA, may take a sliver of members away from BSA, but they really can't hope to become a serious competitor to it.. Even if they try to entice churches that never sponsored a BSA unit..Unless perhaps the Baptist or Evangelicals want to do an LDS thing and force enroll all their youth boy church members to bring up the count.. Otherwise they are just too narrow in focus. No I am the first to cry fowl when someone lumps Protestants into one lump, especially when it is lumping them all as conservative. Ewwww.. Yuck.. Bite your tongue...!!! Still if some protestant group has lumped marriage being a lifelong commitment to one man & one women.. into the meaning of Purity, I still am of the opinion it is someone who has added to the meaning or Purity in a way the Bible never outlined. It may have talked about marriage, and It may have talked about purity, it may have talked about having purity of heart when entering into a marraige.. but it didn't lump life long commitments, or sex without benefit of marriage into that.

Sorry D-Wise.. Should have been a comment to the post above it, as it was related to a comment from there.. Then others added on other comments, on the above post, so it no longer reads one after the other.. I was responding to DigiScout statement in #56.4 : The TLUSA Statement of Faith, which must be commited to by chartered orgs and all leaders, includes the following: "We believe God calls us to lives of purity, service, stewardship and integrity: Purity – God calls us to lives of holiness, being pure of heart, mind, word and deed. We are to reserve sexual activity for the sanctity of marriage, a lifelong commitment before God between a man and a woman. "

Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules. The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love.

Hmmmm... Just thinking here.. If BSA vs Dale was won on a long time LONG STANDING, unified national policy (which is bunk, because the didn't have it until about this time, but I digress).. Then what will protect a new upstart program that in starting creates these same type of rule.. I mean they won't be long standing rules, therefore aren't they ripe for Lawsuits..? Basically just a rhetorical question. If the new group is a private org. then they will be fine, BSA will be fine because it is a private organization, also.. But, at this time if the adult homosexuals did try to sue for membership acceptance, I have question how hard BSA would fight it.. Seems BSA is now more open to this change, but are trying to inch their way across the finish line, to let some conservative view a little time to accept it and relax over the fact the program didn't change drastically due to the welcoming of a few gay youth.. So, if a gay adult does try legal action, I wonder if they would secretly welcome it.. Then again, they may just fight it, just because their egos got in the way of the mission to right this wrong. Anyway.. WAKWIB I agree with skeptic a bunch of "what-if" dooms-day scenarios that if you really think through what is being said is total non-sense. But, it will get their base all hyped up, and maybe scare a few to gullible to really think through what is being said. Religions can't be sued based on practicing what is part of their religious faith, and can't be forced to change by court order.. Some Evangelicals and Mormons are just now getting around to giving a few more equal rights to African-Americans, and some still have a way to go.. Public opinion may turn on them when their practice is found out, but they can't be sued.. Beavah HAS already said as much in a different thread, and he is one of our legal experts.. But, I could have told you that without having the law degree..

I was born and raised Protestant.. I can tell you, purity was not all about sexual action, in fact that was never even brought up or hinted at. It had to do with being pure in heart, thought, deed and action.. Being more altruistic, then self-centered.. Hmm.. thought I wrote something yesterday, but I don't see it.. Perhaps I didn't hit the "Post" button.. I am learning something new with DS's, post.. He listed Methodists in this conservative group.. I thought he had to be wrong. Our troop is sponsored by the United Methodists.. I remember about 10 years or so ago them going through having a different attitude toward homosexuals, and some of the civil war that went on at that time.. They are now very liberal minded and hang our rainbow colored banner with (I forget the exact saying, but something stating they welcome all..) I had to look it up.. So I guess the United Methodist are very welcoming, where the Episcopal Methodist are a little more selective.. Didn't know their were two (actually 3 as their is a free Methodist which is smallest, and I never heard of..) Since United Methodist shorten their title to "Methodist" and the Episcopal Methodist shorten their name to "Episcopal", I never saw the connection.. Both groups have differing views on this topic.. Guess, I need to start clarify "United Methodist" when I make statements about their liberal views on the subject.. Learn something new everyday..

Cute.. I heard the Marching band rendition and had no clue why that was suppose to represent the sound of a fox.. Made me feel totally clueless, and embarrassed to let anyone know I didn't get it.. So now I know, where that came from.

JoeBob - "And while we're on the subject of things I don't know, I can't figure out your avatar. Is that supposed to be bat wings, or a butt hole? " That's funny JoeBob, because I did the same thing either this morning or yesterday.. I saw the butthole, then looked closer and saw the (what I thought to be flaming wings, sort of like a Phoenix".. It certainly is sort of like those inkblots where maybe you see the face or you see the vase.. I do think church members are relatively nice to fellow church members, and agree it is not an aristocracy/peasant thing.. You can have rich or poor in any denomination.. But, not so sure that all religions are equally civil to members of other religions.. You definitely do have many who believe their religion is the one true belief, and everyone not of their faith is going to hell. Not ALL faiths mind you.. Not saying that.. But, it is in some failths, sometime taught by the leaders of the faith and sometimes. if not preached to think that way, you just have your independent thinkers who think and act that way..

I was wondering about that Scouter99.. If the BSA group is mainly of the boys whose families are members of the church, their parents may have enough "buy in" to this change, but if the youth are not members of the church, the parents and boys may not have the same attitude toward it, and will move to units still running the BSA program.

As long as the cat can be respectful of others and not poop in it.. Why not?

It is "just because".. It is the same a graffiti, or throwing a rock at a streetlight.. Mindless destruction, just because it will irritate somebody, and it can be done. By the way, we will enjoy the extra company.. Pull up a rock and sit a spell.

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization. Huzzar you forgot the Methodists and United Church of Christ also.. All 4 of these are not small communities within the Protestant community.. We may have forgotten one or two other large bodies, but I know there are other smaller groups.. I just know that I do look for Protestant churches with a more modern views, and they are very easy to find in my community.. Therefore I would not say "mainstream" rejects the views of liberal churches.. I would say half of protestant church's are conservative, and half are not. Same with Catholic churches.. I am curious to see the new Popes liberal views on Catholics being more welcoming and being concerned about poverty and not about social issues.. He is now taking the Catholic church back to the viewpoint of "Love they neighbor as thy self" and "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".. So this is going to cause anger with his conservation population.. As stated he is not changing the catholic doctrines, but he is seeing it as something not to be highlighted and dwelled upon, and in the light of "We are all sinners" and one sin is not greater then another persons sin.. We may soon see a split off of Conservative Catholics due to this shift, but it sounds like a lot of Catholics are excited about the change in tone. Sort of the Pope now in agreement with the views of the "Nuns on the bus", where last years the nuns were being chastised and punished by the last pope for being more concerned about poverty, then about gays. abortions and contraception.. All I can way is I for one think it is a positive direction for Catholics.. I hope this new pope lives long and prospers..

Why do you need a one-person tent NOW because there may be a gay scout in your troop you don't know about.. That possibility has been around for forever !.. Because now we are allowing opening gay scouts you are NOW worried about the homosexuals that are in the closet? If it is teasing and harassment you are worried about, then ask your scouts what policy they would like to employ.. I suggested a separate tent for the openly gay scout due basically to the fact we have two man tents and basically due to teasing.. But, others said they have had this discussion with their scouts are much less concerned about it, and the kids in there troop are way more mature on the subject then I personally would give them credit for. So, if that is the case, that is great.. if that is not the case give a separate tent to the openly gay kid.. But don't now start boxing shadows and thinking every scout in your troop is a homosexual in the closet..

Oh, there are openly gay kids of that age group, you hear about them on the news all the time, usually they make the news because they committed suicide or were bullied about it, or both.. But, I would go with the fact that if their family was a conservative family and the kid feels he would be disowned by not only his church, but his whole family, he would be less likely to be open about it until they were self-sufficient. I do think these churches would disown anyone openly gay. Would not doubt it for a second..

Makes sense to me.. Unless they allow gay members of it's own organization but wont let them into BSA.. Otherwise they would have a policy of "members only" but have to accept an outside youth if they were gay.. Members only is Members only doesn't matter if your group doesn't allow gays, blacks, jews or native American Indians.. You can not deny membership in BSA on the basis of same-sex attraction ALONE.. Meaning they can be denied for other reasons, same as any other youth.. You can still deny membership to a gay youth if they are a disruptive influence in your group by bullying, or threatening others with a knife, or if they do molest another youth, or if you have a membership Only policy.. You are not denying them because they are gay, you are denying them based on different reasons that you would equally deny other kids membership for.

Yeah, don't know about the bashing of their religion, except perhaps frustration when their religious views influence BSA policy with no regard for anyone else's religious views.. Otherwise, all I have heard is the complaining about them running a different program then the rest of us, which is thought to be sub-par for the most part, unless they give the SM position to someone who is really interested in the program, and doing it right.. But, that sort of talk isn't just reserved for LDS groups, it is for anyone we think is not running the program correctly.. So no special treatment there. Don't know otherwise about complaint of them as people, or of their religion.. Like everyone says, person to person they are very nice people..

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization. Don't lump all Protestants into that statement, there are alot of forward thinking Protestant groups out there.. Conservative Protestants only.. Yeah, on top of that I don't see Episcopalions flocking to this new group either. They definately want BSA to change their policy on gays.. So a very narrow group of Protestants. Before the Catholics new Pope and his very different veiws on the subject, I would have thought some of the more Conservative Catholic churches might have been interested in joining.. They still might if they don't want to heed the views of the new Pope.. I also thought the LDS group would have been interested, until TL stated they didn't see them as Christian.. So yep, a very small group..

To an extent I agree with you jblake.. But, I think with BSA, it was that the group formed, then over the years the people in the group grew apart in beliefs on which path to take, so the division occured. Kindof a wake up call to Liberal when in the 1990's the conservatives created rules the liberals did not care for and started kicking people who were once welcomed out of BSA.. Then for 10 years we have been fighting with each other.. Got louder over the years as more people took on the liberal point of view and conservatives started to loose the battle.. Same battle is being waged in Churches now.. When the Conservatives have the upper hand, the Liberals just continue to fight for change.. When the liberals win the battle, the conservatives pick up their marbles and leave to create their newly formed Conservative church.. I don't see this changing.. It might take another 50 to 100 years, but this new TL organization (if it survives that long) will also start having members grow and have changing attitudes and will want those reflected in TL program, and thus the battle in TL will start up. It is the cycle of life and a long living organization takes on a life of it's own, it either evolves with time or becomes extinct.

So you conservatives are suppose to leave BSA and build your conservative organization, and we liberals are also to leave BSA and build our Liberal organization and then those left in BSA are ??????????????? !... Nah, we liberals will stay in BSA and keep working on change, and less conservatives in it, means the liberal voice will now be louder and stronger.. So eventually all will be good, we are just not there yet.. See that is the difference between liberals and conservatives.. Liberals work for change.. Conservatives just quit what they don't like and start something that is there idea of utopia, until someone comes along and changes it.. Then they will quit again.. That is why all the States who want to succeed from the United States, and the counties that want to succeed from their states and form new states are all Republican.. You never hear the Democrats talk of succession, just about voting the bums out if they can't figure out the word compromise. We will continue to plug away at making BSA a better place more open and inclusive.. But, we wont quit out of it, because it is not there yet.. We have optimistic hope, things can change. By the way we laugh at those who want to succeed from their country or state also.. And if they ever succeeded (which I doubt).. We would probably study what they try to come up with for their new state/country... You guys are a good source of entertainment, as long as you are not dragging us under with you.

Yeah, your troop has formed very bad habits.. Problem is, it will be hard, if not impossible to break the troop of them even if you were in a high enough position to try (Scoutmaster or Committee Chair).. You have a group of scouts and parents who feel scouting is going through a checklist on a direct path to eagle, and probably take pride in how quickly they can get a scout through that checklist.. Eagle is just something to put on a college app or resume. I agree with the person who said the worst part of merit badges in the troop meeting is that your troop meeting is little more then an extension of school classes.. Boys are getting MB's in what is being taught.. True 10 or 11 are required and need to get done, but these should be done when your son is of an age to be able to digest and learn it due to what he is learning in class or experiencing in life.. Like I would not recommend MB's like Environmental Science, Personal Finance or Community in the World at 13 or 14, unless you have a son with the IQ to go to college at about 15.. Yet doing a Troop wide merit badge in classroom style does not take into account the scouts ability to comprehend what is being pushed through.. Worse yet for the large myriad of elective merit badges.. A troop teaching these in classroom style, means the boy gets what is pushed on them rather then choose a merit badge that is of personal interest to him, due to his hobbies or possible career interests.. This is also a problem with just getting MB's at camp or in MB college days.. The boy has some choice, but is limited to what is offered, and what is offered is usually chosen because it can be taught in a classroom like style.. The summer camp thing, I am not totally against. But, our camps does work hard on not dumbing down the requirements. They give the scout prerequisites for what can not be done at camp due to not having the resources, or because it would take longer then 1 week to do.. If the boy doesn't do it before coming to camp the leave with partials and must hook up with a MB counselor to complete the MB. We also had my son go to different camps in the area so the MB's being offered were not the same every year.. We have camps that have pottery, blacksmithing, others that have horseback riding and motorboats for skiing, and others that have the sailboats etc.. No camp can gear themselves for every merit badge, but if you have choices of camps in the area you can give yourself lots of options.. Still you don't want your boy to earn all his MB's at camp, because as others have said, the learning curve of picking up the phone and calling a stranger and setting up a meeting schedule and working one on one (with parent in background for YP) or with only two or three for the buddy system, is important, and allows the boy to take MB's that just aren't offered at any nearby camp, but that they have a personal interest in. Your eyes might be opening that this is not the way a troop should run, but you may find that the only way to correct the problem is looking for a different troop in the area. Because others in your troop will not see it the same way you do, or will see what you are saying, but really wont care as long as an eagle rank can be earned in an easy, lazy way. The last thing will be to have a discussion with your son about it.. It is his scouting career. He might want to just hang with his friends, or now in this troop has been hooked into getting Eagle in 2 years the lazy and easy way.. You might want to canvas troops in your area, find one that runs differently, then have your son visit so he sees a troop that doesn't do classroom training, but instead work on skill, plan for outings and does teambuilding/ skill building competitions in order to get him to see the difference between troop methods, and which way is more fun..