moosetracker

pictak - I am relieved that you are older. The thought of a young adult, needing to address this issue.. scared me.. It means that you have the maturity to try to reason with the SM, if you want to try that route. You also have the maturity to be taken serious by Cor/UC/District, whatever. (As stated I was not sure, I was just lead to that belief by your statement that is what is typical of the 3-4 Eagles we have that have remained involved in our troop after becoming 18.) The fact that he is camping in farmers woods and avoiding public places and also avoiding the public events with the district / Council.. (ie. very isolated).. Does nothing to make me feel better about the situation though.. But, it seems I am seeing more eerie warning signs over what this checklist of problems is adding up to in this troop then others on this forum though. I do fear I get more upset about situations like this due to my own personal experiences. You really need to assess the situation for yourself. You should definately do something to make others aware of what is going on and not just turn a blind eye and walk away. But, what you are seeing and what you interpret by what you are seeing, you seemed trained and mature enough to make an intelligent call and decide how you want to address this..

I agree with TwoCubDad.. It is fishy enough to look at what else is going on in the troop for other evidence.. But, what we got now, may just be a truely very religious man, who is having a hard time keeping active adults. That is why I state >> The thing is someone with training to spot them would need to come in to watch.

Everyone else must be away for the weekend. Otherwise this should be getting ALOT of attention by others alot more knowledgable then me. We have some wonderfully knowledgable DE's, COR's and SM's and others in this forum. I am glad that you are trained, that should help you noting what other things the SM is doing against BSA policy.. My problem was as I got trained I knew enough to talk to others about the way the troop was being run incorrectly, but I had to go through "untraining" their way and "retraining" the right way, which took going back to the same course several times to get things all straight.. Still you are sitting on something that looks very fishy, and you start this thread with "I have kind of a problem...) and we got one problem. Now here is problem 2 and 3.. 1) No committee & I suspect an uninvolved CO.. With the posibility this troop is being rechartered by people who filled out apps a long time ago, left the troop and someone (SM) is paying for them to keep them on the charter without their knowledge, in order to illegally keep the troop going.. Or, that parents are signing an app, without knowing what they are signing up for.. 2) Boys have no control over their program, maybe are going on outings, but at least most "adult run" troops have fun outings. These scouts really are not getting the BSA program, because they go no where! I am suspecting if the SM is controlling them in the outings and the religion there are other control issues that are not by BSA rule.. The thing is someone with training to spot them would need to come in to watch. There are many manipulative ways an adult can force the submission of youth. (one being to make them feel like sinners who need to repent.) ARE YOU the only other Adult leader?.. Before you got there, was there any other adult leader? Was this man doing one on one with this scouts? Does he do any other mind games with the scouts to make them feel inadequate, lacking, unworthy.. How many scouts are there in this troop? I just see the potential for major youth protection violations. I am just freaked by the lack of multi-adult supervision to make sure this troop is healthy. There is a reason for these checks and balances. Without them a control freak (to the point of needing psychological care), can run amok with our youth. Before leaving, you owe it to the scouts in the program to talk to the COR, the District.. And if neither step in talk to the parents of scouts in the program, and those from the feeder pack.. Let them know what is going on, and what the potential dangers could be. If this is not a healthy troop, then you should not walk away without doing your best to protect these kids.. Maybe with this latest issue where a scout won 18.5 million from the BSA for neglegence of a situation, your timing may be just right to be able to protect these scouts. If not make sure you tell the district you have left in writing, and definatly sign up for a different troop, so that you don't remain a "ghost" on this mans charter..

Then hopefully ALL scouts will leave, so the troop can fold. BSA policy is that there must be at least 3 members in the committee. If the committee is a "ghost" committee, then the CO and the SM are lieing to the BSA Council and district. If the SM has that much power, then the boys are slaves to his will. Maybe the SM isn't a slave to the whims of the boys, but the boys should not be a slave to the whims of the SM. He isn't even offering proper outings. Are you the only ASM? If you are, I would fear leaving and leaving the boys without two deep leadership.. But if you aren't I would find a better troop for you and your sons. One that is fun for the boys.. You can try to talk with the council, if you leave and there is only one, but sometimes for the sake of numbers, the district may turn a blind eye to a problem that will cause them to close a troop. Especially if the troop can make it look fine on paper. But if I were you I would talk to the CO about the problems with the troop & BSA rules.. No committee, forced religous denomination. If they don't do anything. I would then talk to the District Excutive.. You can hope that one of them may care. But, the troop really should not be allowed to exist like this. Maybe the District can assign someone to come in and educate the COR and parents in order for them to understand the need for a "true" committee. But, then you still have the religous problem. Maybe some parents who do not like the forced religion, if they know that they can make a committee and force policy against it, that the SM would have to follow. Plus get him to allow the boys to choose their own events, let them run their troop etc.. Maybe if parents are educated to knowing that as a committee, they can (not run the week to week meetings, or events) but can create overall general policies to change the overall policies that change the direction of the troop. Maybe.. But if the SM is a "My way" kind of guy.. He will just ignore the policy and do it his way anyway. This is a disaster that is currently in process.. Either it has to change or die.. Been there, done that.. Not fun.. You yourself (if not trained.) Get trained. Chances are the SM would prefer to control you through ignorance.. Sorry, you are waking up bad, bad memories.

No. But, then the SM, should make sure there was too deep leadership, and stay home.. But, let the scouts go on the activity they planned. I do hope they are only tied to a denomination they need to attend every sunday.. NOT a specific church. Otherwise they are always camping in their own backyard. The SM does not need to go to all events, as long as their is appropriate supervision. Also your talking Dates, of which most may fall on or off the weekends. (Sorry kids, not this weekend, but maybe next weekend) That is different.. This is every weekend. In which case he would need to find a way to get what he needs and allow the scouts to still do what they would like to do. Which may mean allowing them to go on events without him.

Well I had mentioned it on another thread.. But, the two I saw were the first two for Webloes I or Webloes two the first one was foresty, not bad.. Until they added on AND while doing this get your travel activity too.. Take a bus out of state.. (Planning & mapping included).. to go look at the trees.. (How many of you can take a bus trip out of state, for an hour or two on a Thursday evening?.. Maybe if you live in a town on a border. But what bus is going to dump you out and pick you up from a forest? Now lets look at how far your weekly dollar dues will go in buying you a ticket out of state.. Hmm.. it may need to be one way, can't afford to get you back.. The next activity was to a museum.. OK you can do a small tiny museum.. but most museums for us (ARE OUT OF STATE).. (Why can't I take my bus trip here?) Most museums are very large and at least half a day. And will my dollar dues pay for this ticket? I fear after that I quickly left the sight in fear. But, coming here people relaxed me that it will not be so strict a code to follow.. (So I can just go to the forest in the middle of my town if I so choose.) Maybe the bus route etc.. could be planned in a earlier meeting (except this was the first meeting after summer break..) But, you can't space out you bus trip or museum visit over several den meetings.

Actually our district came close to not meeting their deadline. At our district meeting we had the list of Member "at large" (that's what it sounded like they were saying, bear with me I'm very new to this).. Any way the voting members of the district committee was read and to be voted on. Many had issues with the list, people left off (the current DC for one, who was stepping down but remaining on the committee).. Other members. Some members were left on though they never came.. The nominating committee was not selected by the chair. No one from the nominating committe was there to answer question. Many did not get some letter in the mail, or get phone calls about thier positions, and their wish to stay on.... on and on.. We were debating rejecting the list. Someone from council (don't know who, to new for the name to register).. Said, that if we did not approve this list, someone at the council would do so for us anyway, because we surpassed the time limit. And that if we did vote it in, we could amend it at the next meeting. So it seemed like if we voted it in or not, it would be voted in for us.. Now, I don't know what would happen if you had no list. Council may still vote in (maybe last year's list).. Or this "If you don't, Council will do it for you", may be only our Council's policy.. But, that's what info I have on the subject. Right or Wrong.

I understand the "force" is not a good thing unless you limit the unit's membership to being a member of that denomination. Aside from that. I think the fact that the SM is not even the same denomination of the CO, would be a problem to the CO.. I also have a question. Are the boys limited to what events they can choose based on the SM's need to be near a church of his denomination? I mean what if they choose an outing way in the middle of no where's land, that you need to hike into. Would the SM not allow them to go?

BBenders comment >> ...and don't just pencil whip the book right before Blue & Gold...

Your right Eamonn.. That is why we supported the scouts decision to replace the SM. #1) It is their program, and if they are that upset about the SM, then should the adults listen to them. #2) Save the feelings of the SM? What's the difference if you hurt him by "Thanking him for his effort, Letting him know you have a replacement for him, and asking if he would like to return to being an ASM.. Or if you tell him because the troop is not working well, he can remain a figure head, but other people will manipulate him behind the scene? If they go this direction, anyone who takes over for this guy later on will have a hard time, getting them back into the position they should be in. There problem with letting him go is he was hit a year or so ago by the recession. He has shifted his job, but I doubt it pays what his old one did. So they don't want to fire him from SM.. I understand there reasoning for not wanting to hurt him. But, I think it is inevitable. Because there solution isn't good either.. Right now the SM has an idea something is up.. So he is avoiding the COR & CC, so they can't speak with him. Maybe in the meantime, they will rethink their solution. We just got a group of crossovers with ACTIVE Parents.. Ones who want to go on events and be ASM's. And want to do jobs on the committee. We haven't had ACTIVE Parents come in for years! That's hope for the future of this troop, if the SM doesn't loose more the 50% of them, in the next few months, and if the adults don't start an war. And if the new adults do not learn the wrong way a troop is run.. (that's alot of ands)..

The "should" and the "must" may get ironed out when National starts requiring Unit Leaders to be trained in thier position, or they wont be rechartered.. I say "may" because what if you are a Webloes leader that never takes the Webloes scouting? But if the patrol has the same leader from start to finish, they will hit Recharter twice before going on to the troop. (First time, they will not be in the position for a year yet, so get a pass).. Will be interesting to see if IOWLS is needed to pass the second rechartering..

Engineer61, it's sad it your troop is a good old boys group.. Most troops even boy lead, try to get one (if not both) parents involved. True, alot of us, prefer first year parents to be on committee not ASM in order to learn the difference of Cubscout & Boy scout program. Some will invite you to be an ASM when you walk in the door. But, No parents are important. The boys need guidence to be able to Lead. In some ways this is more difficult then an Adult lead program. The boys drive the program, and choose the events they want, and do some prep work to go. But, they don't figure out the cost, or who's driving, or some of the prep work (like making reservations and figuring out any special restrictions or safty issues).. The may work a fundraiser.. But they don't figure out how many chickens to buy, or what can you get donated, or organize the dates & places for the fundraisers. A parent getting personally involve and knowing how the troop operates, can't get involved in doing things for his son. But, on that drive home, they can talk to the son who had a difficult evening.. What went wrong? What could you have done better? If your having trouble with so and so have you talked followed trying to change it by contacting the chain of command in the right order. A parent watching can start to see how being a scout is going to help him in college.. You can make comments like, "Your merit badges are just like college courses.. You have your required courses and then some electives.." Or "Your troop jobs are just like being an employee. You have your levels of command and everyone has a part to play for the betterment of the team.." Or "your troop is just like a sports activity..." On and On.. You as the parent can help the boy learn the right way to advance and improve.." Scouts whose parents are not involved, have a harder time completing their Eagle.. They can do it, but the lack of parent involvement is a hinderance to their success.. A troop should ALWAYS want the parent involved!

Well, Scoutnut, if you were commenting on my statement, I thought it well deserved. If you took it the way you took it. I was just restating my position, and having fun pulling your leg at the same time..

OK Restate (or I will have ScoutNut on my case again.) Not "I heard a rumor" (that will make them think the world knows all the sordid details..) Maybe, "I heard you might be looking for a Pack to join.."

Sorry, scoutnut.. I didn't mean it like, that.. I just meant if they don't want anything to do with you. Then sending out info that you may think is being "helpful", may be getting them irratated.. Sort of like how you get irratated with telemarketers.. You, may be in the market for windows next year, but you won't go with their suggested company because they "irritated" you.. If you give them advise on other troops in the area to visit, will they take the advise of "THOSE #@#@#".. Or will it just insite them not to go to any Pack, suggested by you.. Which is why I suggested someone they were not angry at.. UC or COR, if not involved.. I have found DE's don't want to get involved on a one-on-one level, but maybe yours would.. Maybe someone who is in the troop, but not either sided with them (don't know what they did and if there were sides..) or some parent who knows them but not a member of committee or Unit Leaders.. etc.. But, if you have no one that will not insight them to see red, green, and purple.. When they contact them.. They just might be better finding there way themselves.. OK.. Heres a thought.. You look up the neighboring towns Pack.. Contact their Unit Leader.. And have THEM invite them to their troop, with just a "I heard a rumor.. Would you like to visit..", and no mention of who they heard what from.. (And, if there was something they really did that was wrong, try not to give the new Pack the story. That way they would have a chance to start anew.) Is that worded better ScoutNut.. (Is a better solution ScoutNut?)

Well, there still may be a neighboring town.. Granted your more likely to do this type of travel for a troop that fits your sons interests, rather then Pack. But, I was checking into the four neighboring towns for someone I knew whose pack is very unorganized.. But, how much you want to be nice, to someone who doesn't want anything to do with you.. Best let them figure out their own solution.

Some of it may be the lack of the new scouts parents participation in the program. They do tend to go hand-in-hand. If no one in your troop has viewed it yet, you might want to go to the Scout on-line training and view the training on Scouting parents.. In there they talk about an adult leader being tasked with getting to know the parents and get them to know the troop, then to task them with simple small things (can you drive, can you be the judge for this compitition etc.) . Then slowly growing their tasks and responsibilities. Our COR went to a meeting this weekend and was told Scouting Parent is having one Parent of each scout sign up as the Scouting Parent.. (not sure what that wins you but alot of names on your charter..) But, you may need to see if the events are truely what the majority of the scouts want to do. Also you said due to only 2 scouts signing up for an activity, the activity is canceled. This can be a self-defeating downward spiral.. If you troop is canceling events, then scouts stop planning to attend them, because "it will just be canceled anyway".

If you think she is defensive, and will not hear anything from you. Maybe you can see if the UC (if he was not a part of the removal process of the parents), could suggest to them a neighboring pack and suggest they transfer. If he was, maybe he can see if the DE could make the contact. That way you may be able to help the boy relocate, and stay in scouts.

I was not here while that post was all abuzz.. The scout sounded deserving, and the reasons to deny it seemed trivial, but then we heard only one side of the story.. So you never knew. Either way, I am glad.. It should be MAJOR to not give a scout their Eagle, after they worked so hard for it.. And if there was something in the Scouts history that caused the SM & committee to be justified in not wanting to award him it, I am sure he has learned and grown through this process, and that would make him Eagle material alone. I went to an Eagle Court for a boy that was in my sons Pack.. I didn't know it at the time, but he got a special day pass to get out of jail to go to his own Eagle Court! Now maybe that SM could have won, if he pressed the issue.

Well.. The boys approached the commitee and asked for a new SM.. They even suggested who they wanted. The CC has talked to the parents and know there is a real issue.. The guy is nice enough, but the boys were not happy when he took SM because even as ASM, he puts his own sons first. Somehow finds a way to make a scout minute take 15 minutes.. and other things.. The COR & CC do not want to hurt his feeling by asking him to step down. So they have come up with a plan to have the COMMITTEE take over the running of the troop, in order to help him.. The COMMITTEE is now setting up the troop program, The COMMITTEE is forcing the PLC to be moved to a different night so that the COMMITTEE members can attend... The COMMITTEE will assign the ASM jobs, since the SM can not delegate anything to them.. etc. etc. etc. My husband tried to tell them that though changes were needed, they were overstepping their bounds.. But, the COR just this weekend went to COR training, figured out that yes she is powerful, and yes she is entitled to take over the running of the Troop (in order to help out the SM).. So we will now have people involved and supporting the SM.. But, I fear, not the best solution.. The troop may even run better. But, I fear A) it will still be Adult lead (more then by 1 person though).. B) there will be war in the Adult camps... And I fear the boys still will not get the troop that they want to have.. I was hoping TLT, could get people to focus on who is suppose to be leading... Guess not..

Oh I was not condeming you not going to your councils Summer Camp, Just making sure you did offer that to the boys.. My son went to different camps. And one year he got the whole troop to go, the council went NUTS.. The boys did want to return to the other camp, but with the stink the council made, I'm afraid the adults tabled it for "a few years down the road".. (Yes slap our hands).. Now we are so small, they wouldn't notice us going to a different place. Then we were big and a leading force in our district.. (It sent shivers up the Councils back). It would be nice if you could find out the boys who leave this massive troop within a year or two.. That way you could find out if what they didn't like about the program, your program could offer. With the privacy & security though I don't think you could get this info from district, although they probably would like a chance to retain these boys.

Oops, Scoutnut.. Den Chief was what I meant.. Thanks cub scouts is long ago & far away.. All those terms are not as easy as they once were..

The way you put it you are correct.. You are right, I made it sound that way. My husband has been the only one that has kept everyone there for the 1 1/2 years this SM has been SM.. Me for a year, then I gave up.. He runs advancement, troopmaster, goes on all the outings that were not canceled by the SM (or they wouldn't have the 2 deep leadership).. He is the one that is getting all the phone calls from other parents who are upset by the SM. During this time he has tried to support the SM to the parents & tried to advise the SM on different methods to use. Most the scouts & parents tell him he just can't leave. He is currently very valuable to the troop.. But, after 1 1/2 years he is tired, it is 2 to 3 times harder trying to fix things in the troop this way then if he was SM himself. So yes, he gave himself a deadline of this one scout.. He has to give himself some deadline, because things just don't get better. But, he keeps on trying and keeps on hoping, and if they can turn things around before his deadline, then he would probably stay on. At least my husband is continuing to try. If you want to call someone out. You can do so with me who has given up, or with my son, who has decided to leave.. We have decided it is hopeless.. My husband is still trying to fight on.. At least the committee is looking into the problem. Before they avoided it.. Now they are looking at it.. "There solution".. Have lots of Adults prop up the SM.. Hmmm.. Why are they now jumping on board to fix the problem.. Because they now are aware my husband is not a "forever" timer, if things aren't fixed. So the TLT is an attempt to "fix".. Maybe the SM, will let the boys run things if he witnesses them being trained to run things.

If you don't go to the council's summer camp.. Do you go to a different councils camp? Or vary between camps in other councils.. Or do you have a different activity for a week during the summer (like a week long hike). You may not care for you council's camp, but, it is something most scouts (plus parents) look forward to.. Getting that many boys is not good. The troop can't handle that many recruits on a per year basis.. They would grow to a 100+ troop, and the council would look to splitting them up (I would think, they wanted to split up our Pack due to size).. The drop out rate is probably due to them discouraging the scouts they feel are not top notch. Yet by the next year when they canvas for the new weblos, they can show off scouts that are the 'cream of the crop'. Parent love the thought of someday thier child being such a model scout (not realizing that they don't mold them, they select them from the group and dispose of the rest.) What to do about it..? Can you get some of your boys to be Den leaders? Offer to help the Pack nearest you with one or two community projects? Get an Adult leader to work with the Pack by going to the committee meeting to help with crossover, or Weblos meetings to help them with arrow of light.. Our troop holds a Thanksgiving campout that we invite the weblos to.. We feed them real good, and do some fun activities. (Don't need to do that all, those are just a list of suggestions.) Like Oak Tree states, you would then have time, to let them know about your Troop, your scouts, your leaders. You may then get some staight from crossover. If they do choose the other troop, still be friendly and tell them if it doesn't work out, your door is always open.. If they know you, and they feel they haven't burned their bridges, by choosing the other troop, you may then start to get those that did not "fit in" to the other troop's agenda.

That sounds great BadenP. It's one I never heard of. Heres one, that I looked at the ingredients and was skeptical that the kids would even eat it. But, surprisingly it is their favorite, and they have gone to compititions and won with this recipe. It was made up by a scout's family just having a good time throwing whatever was in the kitchen into a pot, so it is not well known either (unless you bought the cookbook our troop created for a fundraiser). Concoction 5 Large carrots, sliced 3 stalks celery sliced 1 large onion, diced 1 green pepger diced 1 read pepper diced 2 pkgs polish kielbasa or smoked sausage sliced 2 tsp Mrs. Dash Table blend -------- 4 potatoes, peeled and sliced 1 can diced tomatoes with roasted garlic 1 can baked beans (large can) procedure (for easy prep work) At Home: cut and dice all the veggies (but potatoes). Place in a labeled Plastic bag, place in the cooler cut the kielbasa or sausage. put in a labeled plastic bag with the Mrs. Dash table blend. At Camp: Preheat the 12" Dutch Oven (10 coals on bottom of DO only) peel & cut potatoes, add to the DO. Add the premixed veggies. Saute until crisp tender. Remove from the dutch oven. saute the kielbasa or sausage until brown. Combine all the ingredients. cook in the DO until vegetables are tender at 350 degrees. (17 coals top, 8 bottom).. servings: 6