moosetracker

Well I don't feel my district is so bad with it's setup.. SOMEONE is better then NOONE.. I don't think anyone who does attend RT felt our's was a waste of time. My old district was well attended also. Poor turn out kills the enthusiasm of the people putting on the Roundtable. How much effort are you going to put into an event where few show up. Soon those few are not even showing up. We went to our Council kick-off this weekend. They have booths set up so you can learn things and meet people. The first few times it was exciting. Now I kind-of run through the booths, stopping at 2 or 3 new ones. Our council will not give out a district calendar to units that do not attend. Not only do you have to attend. You have to have 15 booths signed off, before you can collect your district calander. Only one calender per attendee. No more, No less. This year I went for my calander, it was the first year they only gave us a paper copy. No electronic copy. I was shocked. I would burn copies of the electronic one to give out to other unit members. I was shocked I asked why.. Response. It all is on-line.. Blink.. Not a good thing to advertise.. What you want to bet that the kick-off starts to fizzle. This Council calendar is not the golden carrot any longer.

beardad -- That is very sad.. Well our districts may not send the "Right" people, but our roundtables are very busy. A guestimate for last month would be slightly over 100 people. Even excluding the OA (that meets on the same night).. Who were instructing the new ordeal members how to put together the horseshoe pack. (My son when he went got it with the instructions but they aren't too good.. And I spent a long time trying to locate 100% Wool (with out any blend) and paid a fortune for 3 100% wool blankets per instructed.. Only to find out all the new blanket material would do, wool was just what they had back in the day when the instructions were written. I will say our roundtables are in tune with a carnival effect..

Uh-oh I got called out on the rug.. Well we were members of a Pack and 2 troops all 3 of different towns and different units and of one council.. And, another troop of different town and different council. All of these 4 units of different councils, never sent their CC, DM, SM or anything to a roundtable, they all sent reps.. And the practice was well established before we joined, so it was not introduced by us. Pack had a semi-active COR.. Last troop had a very, very, very well informed COR.. In fact if she set her sights on going after the council, they stood at attention and said "Yes, Ma'am".. She grew up in scouting from cradel to grave. (She has sadly passed on.) With her it was of utmost importance we have a rep at the roundtable, but not the SM or CC.. The Rep will not only pull the info from the boxes, but attend the announcements and the roundtable breakouts, then come back and report the info to the SM. There are only so many, "1 hours a week" that people will do on a voluntary basis.

basementdweller - Although I don't think education is easy for very poor people. Children may be dealing with little supervision, having to care for younger siblings, having to get a job early to help support the family.. Alot of moving around due to being kicked out of where you lived, etc.. But, if possible Education is the way out. But, I am not sure where my post started a debate about the poor.. I was just stating young kid stupidity that gifting from the heart, didn't mean much if the item wasn't new.. I wasn't gifting used items because I was poor, but giving gifts to friends was never a tradition and I wanted to give gifts that year. At five you really don't have the money or the vehicle.. I didn't know that a tent was the first thing bought. Most Troops supply them.. Packs are more family camping, so maybe that's when they are bought. Our Pack wasn't really campers. I think the only one we did was once a year the Pack would do family camping at the end of Summer just before school let out. We already had a family style tent.

FScouter.. As a take off to the title of this thread.. Are you Serious? (just joking). There's a big lawsuit that was won in the lower courts because in the '80's the scouting program did not have good rules around sexual harassment, same as all other people at the time. Someone was abused.. The lower court awarded him millions. They will fight it in a higer court. But, be prepared for others comming out of the woodwork with accusations, if they win. So it may be a large payment, but only the first of it's kind. Just like rape cases there should have been a statue of limitations. This person knew since the beginning who the culprit was, it wasn't like the cases allowed to be reopened due to DNA that wasn't available in the day.

YES! more people with opinions similar to mine! I like it! Zippy, Things did get a little heated on this topic for a while. Sorry.. Maybe TwoCubDad lives in the South, and didn't care for the blanket statement.. Don't know.. So for the sake of diversity.. Let me add, to my list. "If I went to a troop and they didn't let Southerners be ASM, SM.. I would walk.."

Oh, the troop wants to do the selling, and they are excited to go and many we have talked to are excited to get tickets. So not an issue of selling. Or them expecting our help in selling. No issue there. Maybe in your neck of the woods the blue angels are around all the time.. I have never seen them any where near her. Just the thought that we would trust the kids with costly merchandise.. for the scouts they can camp overnight go for 2 days food, t-shirt, show etc included for $45.. Our troop is looking into it. Those who want the $20 for 1 day, no food or t-shirt etc have that option too. Or they can not attend if $20 too much for them. Considering what people still pay for sports events, there are still people who can afford this, and those that could not. Even with the parents signing a contract, some would still not honor it.. Anything with money and you just get the weirdest responses which get into heated arguements. Yeah the blindside was short sided on their part (ha,ha). If they thing SM and CC go to roundtable for each unit they are sadly mistaken. Since SM & CC have enough to do, we send a representative. The poor lady rep of our troop is fairly new, she lucked out that our family was their doing district buisness (not always the case). She was very nervous at even the thought and was so relieved to hand the assignment to us. So we decided to get the packets per scout, but not the tickets until a committee vote which was less then a week away. My son was sent up. He said the guy (Council level for fundraising) was definately in high-pressure sales.. He told him he would take the packets not the tickets. The guy and him went round and round. Finally my son took the packets and walked away.. Again imagine trying to force a young man age 19 into signing to be the responsible party for $800 - $1000 dollars in merchandise! Someone from our troop who works a block away will go over to sign for the tickets.. Well Basementdweller responded that with a contract he would hand the scouts the costly merchandise.. So, I would put you at a higher level of trust with your scouts.

We had to decide on how to work a fund-raiser. The council wants us selling tickets for the Blue Angel event. We have no problem doing that, we did have issue with how they wanted us to sell them and we changed the method. The tickets are $20 a piece per day. Our troop needed to sign someones name to a contract when we took a wad of tickets by a specific date, either we would sell the tickets or return with the ticket cost in hand. Loose the ticket, you owe the money. We had no problem doing so in the long run, just not on the night they wanted us to, which was at a round table without speaking to the committee about how many tickets we should sign out. Then they wanted us to hand out a wad of those tickets to each scout so that they could sell them door to door. There theory was if you don't have the tickets on you the people wont buy them.. Well with fund-raisers we have done this passing out of product before the scout had the product sold like this before. first-aide kits ($3 cost, $7 retail). Cookbooks (cost free, $5 retail).. We hand out popcorn only when they return a list of what they sold. We have sold wreaths in a blitz day where we have the product in hand, but we go out for the one day in groups to sell them. Bottom line the first-aide kits and cook-books were lost or returned without sale months after the event. Parents scouts did not feel it their responsibilty to pay for the loss of first-aide kits even at cost for us. We truely don't think many will buy at the door on the first knock, unless they are single and do not have to consult the family on who wants to, and are free to go that day. So, a blitz day may not work so well. But, without the blitz day, we are not handing out $200 - $400 dollars ($20 cost, $20 retail) worth of product to the scouts of small paper tickets and hoping they do not loose them, leave them out in the rain, stick them in their pockets or just not return them on the required date. Based on history we do not think they (is it really them or their parents?) will honor to pay for each ticket not returned on time, even if we get them to sign our own contract. If we don't do a blitz day, then the boys will go with a sign up sheet, and when the return with the sign up sheet, we will then trust them with the tickets they sold to take them from us to those they sold to. If we did we fear the troop would be responsible for hudreds of dollars. So trustworthy to our troop, I guess only goes so far.. There is a limit with money matters. How much do you trust your scouts?

Well I wouldn't do the beltloops / activity badges.. Just because of what I have heard of pencil-whipping parents.. You may be awarding the scout that did the least and has dishonest/confused parents. Personnally I like the scouts-in need (can't afford) or Novice idea to donate.. Just me. I remember when I was very young, (maybe 5) I wanted to give my friends gifts. I wrapped up items that were in very good condition, that I loved and thought they would too, but they were used. I presented them with pride and was crushed that they chewed me out for giving them used gifts.. So my veiw over gifting used items is tainted.

I went to a training on CubScouting2010 this morning. It sounded like Weblos was changing. Questions were asked about how Weblos II Leaders were to work with the new delivery method, when they are half-way into the program. They have laid out their plans for 18 months, and the new delivery method would have them redo badges they have already done. The response was the if Webloes I you would start with the new delivery method, same as other ranks. If Webloes II you had two options.. 1) You should look at the outline for the den meetings more carefully and if things have been done, see if you can use meetings from the Weblos I den meetings.. If all fails figure your den meeting as you did in the past.. 2) not try to use the new delivery method and continue using the plan you laid out and are half-way into.. The Adult Leaders books we were told did change for the new delivery method. But, as for the Weblos books that the scouts use, there is no change at all. If a family had boys of diffent rank, the older boys could continue to pass their books off to their younger brother coming up the line. I know you are saying it is the Webloes Leader guidebook.. So this doesn't jive with what I just spent 2 hours of training learning about.

Aha.. That explains it.. I remembered the statement pretty good, but I did think we slipped in with an "or".. yet reading it now I was surprised to see it state it as an "and".. Although our son in the long run exceled in scouts and continues to do so. Putting him in early did cause some problems. He was no longer immature, in fact by then he was very serious and prefered hanging with the adults rather then the kids.. But, he was slower to grasp the skills that were expected of the new scouts, and was not readily accepted by the other scouts. So I will not argue Lisabob's advice.

Yeah, but ain't it fun.. And why not debat amongst ourselves, we may not be the originator of the question, but if we have issues, why not settle them. Basementdweller - I might need correction but so do you.. She said : I going to talk to my son and go visit some other troops.. Now I took that to mean that since she is talking to her son her son her son is now included into the 2nd part of that sentence.. So she is now included in the going to visit other troops.. You took it to mean : I going to talk to my son and (*I will*) go visit some other troops.. In truth she did not state the "I" or the "we" in the visit of other troops.. Therefore we do not know if the boy went with her to choose the troop or not.. We both infered into that sentence what we wanted to read out of it.. But if I said, "I am going to talk to my husband then search for a house to buy.." I would not assume that my statement meant that my husband would be excluded in the house shopping. Although I did not state that "we" would search for the house.. So, maybe I would just surprise him.

Ok, I have found my council to be odd in many ways from other councils. So you can't take my word for this, that if my council did this, so should yours. It worked out that my son crossed over in March from cubscouts to boyscouts at the age of 9, he was 10 on September 28th . We saw the same info and panicked.. Not only was he crossing over at 9, he was also one class grade short of the posted age. We were assured that since he had earned his arrow of light all would be fine. He crossed over and earned boyscout, tenderfoot and had alot of rank advancement done for 2nd & 1st class before he ever turned 10.. He even went to BS camp and earned 3 merit badges that summer, before his birthday that Fall.. (But then he had completed 5th grade, so then maybe he was legit..) How did he get into this position.. Our date for kids to be accepted to 1st grade was September 30th. He made the age cutoff by 2 days. He joined cubscouts in first grade. Because he needed time to mature, he was held back in the 2nd grade, but the belief was not to have him repeat that cub scout rank, but to continue advancing with the den he had started out with.. So he made BS at age 9 and with grade 5 uncompleted... Now at 19 he is the youngest person working at the district level on the Eagle board, He is working in the troop committee as Outdoor Leader and attends all committee meetings and votes (though voting is suppose to be only when you are 21.) And he is thinking of taking on the position of Distict Web Master... The troop & council will need to decide if they want to let him pass with the arrow of light award, or hold him to age/grade.

I think nwasness, made her decision and left somewhere around page 1. Since then, we have been discussing this issue amongst ourselves. Last I knew her decision was : I think my mind has been changed by Moosetracker & Irsap. I going to talk to my son and go visit some other troops. I know of one that will except my son and I with open arms. So: A) she is talking to her son. B) she is moving to a different troop. C) her son will be involved in looking at the other troops in the area, and helping to make a good choice. D) It may be the one who really wants her son and her to join them, but it may not.. So as far as the OP, my reasoning (and Irsap) was what she choose.. Since then it has just been "friendly" bickering between opinionated scouters.

Good morning! I am releived that I did not break friendships in this forum.. Some people come and go, but there is a core group that have been around for a long time. I do not want to do anything to damage that relationship. Pack212 - If I had a girl and she went into girlscouts and the unit told me that men could not be leaders I would walk.. So you are wrong. I would want my daughter to learn and respect diversity the same way. The value and perspective of a male role model would be as important to me as the value and perspective of a female role model. Take my sons girlfriend. She is in a family which had two daughters. So her father gets involved in his daughters activities. I commend him. I wish more fathers could drop the macho act and do the same. I would like to think this man, had he had sons and daughters would have equally wanted to be involved in both their activities. I can see the need for boy and girl separated activities with teenagers especially. (I would not fight an English BSA policy in the future. But the co-ed Venture program gives the Adult leader many more headaches then the seperated programs.) I do not see the need for Male Only or Female only Adult Leaders. Young men need to see that some women have skills equal to men. Young women need to know that their activities are equal to that of men. They also need to be encouraged to do activities that are more adventurous. Runs the risk that in the next generation you may have more females wanting to be ASM's in boy scouts because they have the skills.. But, likewise more males can became leaders in the girl scouts.. Over time man may even stop hinting at other men having feminine traits in order to insult them. I am not talking of a BSA Troop that is predominately Lead by females. Or a Girl Scout troop that is predominately run by males.. A women or two Female Adult leaders in a group of 10 or 20 male leaders is not going to kill the ability for the men to be Male Role models. A family with a wife and husband, does not cancel out the ability for the father to be a male role model to the son. Women add the value of diversity. Plain and simple. One of BSA's values is to instill in or scouts the ability to respect diversity. I agree with John-in-KC's opinions. Well said John. I might think twice if the male leader had no daughters or wife in the program (past or present). I would probably have to talk to him about his motivation and draw conclusions for myself that they were honest ones.. But, to be equally fair the same would be true of a woman with no sons or husband (past or present) in the BSA program. That is not to say, I would automatically label them perverts.. Our CO was a woman who was raised in the BSA program because her fathers career was in the program. The problem is not with the not allowing the women to go on overnights. Not my belief, but if you allowed women to be ASM with that one condition. I would not take your values as stating that women do not make good role-models for men.

It's late guys. I think you are saying things that after a good nights rest and some time to settle down, you will be wishing tommorrow morning you had not said. Let's put this issue to bed and call it a night. BadenP has called me an instigater... I am beginning to agree with him. Sorry, to put you two into a virtual fistfight.

scoutfish -Oh, I know I am not alone on this point of view.. I guess I am just being the most vocal.. Even the people who are on the fence, saying they don't have enough info, or they can see both sides.. My arguement is not with you. With your last statement Scoutfish, You might even be more adament then me. As my viewpoint is more that they are entitled to their opinion, (with some of your comments I will add, "up to a point").. So my leaving would not be a statement for them to change, just a right to be able to choose for my son the values I wish.. I would have that right. Now if you are breaking the law especially in front of scouts (stealing, drinking, child molesting), I will do more then walk, I will pull in law enforcement. I wouldn't put sexism in the catagory of child molesting. Sexism is very twisted, it can be a crime, or it can be values.. Crime if you do not hire/ promote, or pay less to a women based on her gender.. Value if you believe only men can be good role models to boys based on similar gender.. Or the man is the head of the household and the wife follows his rules.. My value (My families value, since my husband agrees) dictates my son learns that women are equal to men so that he will grow up to be a leader who treats men and women as equals.. So that his values will not cause him to someday as a future leader commit a crime of sexism... Values // Crime two different things.. But, the fine line is difficult to distinguish. It is the same thing I want him to learn about all people of differnt race/ color/ gender / religion etc. etc. etc. It is my belief as to what reverence is all about. Enjoy peoples diversities and learn that diversity makes a stronger team then all being the same. So in order to practice reverence.. I will say this.. As long as the troop values are not criminal, I will not force them to change. If you want to believe that an all-male troop is better. Fine.. Believe that. But if you tell me that once my child enters your troop, if I wish to pull him, I cannot because it is no longer my decision. If your troop instill in my child the belief that he has the right to make his own decisions for himself. If you advise him that he can listen to my reasoning, but does not have to abide by my decisions.. You are taking away my parental rights. That is criminal.. Now you can say "We would not say that to the child.. Just the mother.." Great it is not criminal, but you are simply dead WRONG. Thank-you Scoutfish, twoCubdad,Basementdweller and others for your support. Thank-you Snowwhite, Gunny, BadenP and others for keeping an open mind about women in scouting, and at least an open attitude that this may or may not be an issue of values. My Issue isn't with all of you.. Just with those who feel this is not an issue where a parent should have the right to pull a scout out. I am not trying to change your opinion about women in scouting. Just don't try to change mine, and don't tell me I as a parent I don't have rights, to raise my child under my beliefs.

Gunny.. I was not answering you direct. I was answering the thread. Sorry if you felt it was aimed at you. I am not argueing if the CO can choose and mandate his values or not. I am argueing that the mother has a right to choose and mandate the values she want the scout to learn from the troop by having a say over the troop the boy attends. Time and time again I have stated she should move her scout to a different troop. Not that she should stay and fight. I get responses such as the "The boy decides" and "The mother should go to a different troop, if she doesn't like it.. But, the boy stays with the troop if he doesn't want to move." I am responding to the responses that the mother has no more say in the correct way to raise her son. Ok.. let's take gender out of this.. Since you feel my "feminine" opinion is worthless on an issue of gender. If I walked into a troop and they told me a black man could not be ASM or SM.. I would walk, and I am not black. If I walked into a troop and they told me a Jew could not be ASM or SM.. I would walk, and I am not jewish. If I walked into a troop and they told me a poor man could not be ASM or SM.. I would walk (well I am not rich, but I could be worse off.) If I walked into a troop and they told me a person in a wheelchair could not be ASM or SM.. I would walk, and I have two good legs. Like a "women" this person may not be able to go camping or hiking.. I don't care, he/she would have so many worthwhile values to helping to guide my son, I couldn't name them. I want my child to learn to value everyone for their talents and not judge them on race, gender, disabilities, religion etc.. Therefore I want any institution that is going to help me instill values on my son, to hold those same values as I. Once in a troop that holds similar values to mine, he can learn to make wise decisions and learn to be a leader, with the guidence of adult leaders who hold the same values as I do.. Choosing the right troop is the choice of the parents and the son.. It is not solely that of the sons.

Let me say this. I have never camped with the troop. I choose to be in the committee. I camp with the family, but choose to not do so in scouting because my family only has 3 people (husband, son, self) . My husband went camping with the troop. I felt if I went also it would be too much like family camping for my son. Even so, if I walked into a troop that told me equally trained females are not allowed to go, were not allowed to become an ASM or SM of the troop. I would take my son and walk out. And I will tell you my husband would back me 100%, I have discussed this thread with him. He can not see your viewpoint either. I might be more tolerent if they could become ASM, but due to some moral values they could not permit females on overnight campouts. Female ASM could attend the day outings only. OK, this is some sort of morality issue.. Not my values, but not one I would take my son and leave over. ASM is more then just the overnight camping trip, they are the main group of people who will be instilling values into my son. Telling me that an ASM is not allowed to be female, tells me that you do not feel that women make good role models, and do not have good values. This is not an issue for me over "camping" with the boys. It is not an issue for me over even me wanting to be an ASM, because I never did. But, it is an issue for me over your telling me that a women can not make as good of an ASM or SM as any man could. This is not an issue about ME, it is an issue about my VALUES.. It is an issue about the VALUES I want my son to learn. Yes, this woman stated she wants to go on outings with the boys. But she also stated.. (quote) I have always been in nontraditional positions in my life. I went into engineering and was the only female student in my engineering program in college and I felt excepted. I was hired in an all male office and no one objected. This is the first time I was told I could not do something based strictly on my gender. It really annoys me that people still have the archaic beliefs." (end quote..) From that comment I can only take it one way. This is the womans VALUES.. Same as my VALUES.. And you are telling her she has no say in the matter. That because her son has made a few friends in a week or two of association. She has no say in his upbringing any more. He now has the ability to choose his destiny as if he were 18 years old. Go find some other childern in a different troop you can instill your values on them. You have now turned over custody of the raising of this child to the troop of his choice. I have stated already she should discuss it with the son. Hopefully he will agree with the mother. But, if not he hopefully can take ownership it the selection of the next troop. Maybe not if the area is limited. You hope with reasoning your son will see your point of view and value it. If not, it is still her choice to move him.

ScoutNut, I don't even know how to get you to see that boy-run does not mean parents loose the right to how thier children are raised, and the values that they are taught. Boy-run does not mean when you step into a troop at 11, 12, 13. You are now mature enough to make all your own decisions. It is you will have the resonsibility and opportunity to work with in the troops guidelines, and make decisions that are within those guidelines. As you learn and take on more responsiblity you will learn and grow to maturity and independance. Even in the troop boy-run only goes so far. The committee might tell the boys an event they want is outside the budget, or the scoutmaster will tell them they can choose a fair way to decide who cleans the dishes, but the dishes must be cleaned. The boys might be given the right to come up with a plan to organize the gear, but the troop expects that their plan will stop the problem of the constant loss of equipment. If a boy can not conform, to the troop rules, the troop can remove him. Boy-run is with guidelines as to what the adult leaders expect that the boys need to learn from the troop. Boy-run is with guidelines as to what the parents expect that thier son should learn from their troop. If they are in a troop that can not and will not provide that, it is the parents right to move them. Boy-run is not that the boy is now self-governing. No one is saying the mother should rip her son from the troop with no explanation. But, it is her right to tell him that these values are contrary to her beliefs. She is proud of her success in moving in a male dominated environment and want him to see women as equal to men. For those reason she is pulling her parental rights to look for a troop with the same values she wants him raised in. Now (if possible) let him be part of the decision of which new troop he would like to join. But together, they must come to an agreement. One that fits the parents values and what they would like the troop to instill in their son, and based on what the boy would like from his troop.

Scoutfish, I could virtually kiss you!!!! You stated beautifully what I have been trying to sputter out, very poorly.. Thank you!!!

That's all I'm saying, she should find another troop. I just disagree with people who are telling her to leave her child in a troop that does not have her beliefs. If you tell her that you are asking her to disregard her beliefs and raise her child in a group that has a belief system she does not agree with. Her son may have found friends, but obviously they have only been in the troop for weeks. He can make friends in another troop in the matter of the same number of weeks. You as the parents should be able to choose who you want as role-models for their sons, especially at the age of 12. These people you would hope will have a profound effect in shaping and modeling your son into the type of young man. I chose to change my son from a troop that was not boy-lead. The adults cooked for them, didn't let them hold positions, wouldn't let them prepare for camporees, but did all the prep work for them. This was not teaching my son to be independent. My son was not ready to leave (Not upset, but just wanting to hold on for the troop to change). I chose to take him anyway. He was greatful for the move about 2 weeks later. If the mother does not care for the belief system they will instill, then she should move her son. Even if the son is reluctant. A boy at 12 does not make a decision to join a troop based on the type of social morays the troop will instill upon him. He will look for the troop that will offer him personal challenges. A parent must still make that call. But yes, after that the scout can make a choice of a troop that has the activities he wants to particiapate in. Or has friends from his class, or because he likes one SM over another troops SM. When we made the move out of the troop my husband and I canvased about 6 troops, narrowed it down to 3, and let our son visit and choose from those 3 troops. But, we first chose he was going to move out of the first troop, because he was not getting the scouting experience that we had signed him up for. Bad, Bad, Bad parents.

Back in the day, women wore chasity belts, and were sold to wealth men in arranged marriages too. For some of us. time has marched on. The bra has been burnt for most of us in America. You can argue that for Adult men under BSA policy they also they have different facilities, sleeping arrangements, etc... A adult male can not bunk in a tent with a boy. An adult male can not shower with the boys. You can choose to live in an old-fashioned culture. In the mid-east you will be part of the majority. In America you will be part of the minority. You can have your beliefs, I will respect them. But, don't ask me to follow them. If going to a country where women must walk 10 paces behind a man, or not speak, or not look at a man.. I would choose not to go. Because I would not change for them. My son & husband joined the Masons.. "Bye, have a good time".. I will not join the Northern Star, (or whatever the female sector is.) My husband laughed and said.. "I know not to even ask you to join." I will not keep my son & husband from joining, I will respect their decision. (Actually, I don't think hubby is going to get very far, he is not really motivated.) I will respect the values of others, but I will respect mine also. Don't expect me to follow your beliefs if they are not mine. How can we live in harmony? By only associating on very minimal and superficial grounds. And not trying to talk the other into changing our beliefs.

Alot of the patches didn't look like what they were suppose to represent. Some look good, some though look bad. I remember my son had one a long time ago, can't remember what animal it was to represent. But, I remember stating it looked like a "turd on a stick". (Needless to say, son was not too pleased with my comments.) Later on he talked his patrol into getting the blank patches that you are suppose to use to customize the patrol. They just left them blank, and called themselves the blank patrol. Patrol names and changing or not changed with how the boys were organized. When we started they were all reorganized into different groups with varing ages in each group once a year. Since all the boys reorganized, all the patrol names changed. Then we went to the age/Rank grouped patrols. Everyone stayed in the same patrol, until age and/or rank moved them to the older patrol. The oldest patrol was the "blank" patrol. The names did not change. Now they are back to mixing the ages up again. Through all of it, sometimes Flags / Patches / yells accompanied the name change. Other times they did not. Depended on if we devoted a meeting or two to it. Or if a camporee was coming up where these things would be included in the point system during the events.

Yes, I mis-spelled Amish is correct. They may be big in Pennsylvania. I saw them more when I spent summers in Illinois.. In fact they would come to my churches(non-Amish) annual ice-cream socials. No I figured no Boyscouts, in their group. I was just saying if I joined their community, not their troop. When joining a troop, it is a community, maybe only for a few hours and weekends a year. But, still it is a community. They are instilling their values you your children and on you. Reverence starts with yourself. You have to be reverent to yourself and your own beliefs, before you can be reverent of others. No one will have the exact beliefs as yours, but there are communities that will be far removed from your own beliefs and if you were to move into them. You would find you could not live in them. Let them enjoy their lifestyles, and beliefs as you enjoy yours. But you will be able to be more respectful of them from afar. Not while they are trying to alter your beliefs, or you try to alter theirs. The Amish was just an example of a group, I think alot of us would say we admire. But, whose values and ways of life are different from most of ours. It would be hard for any of us to move into that lifestyle, regardless of if we admire it or not. I could have cited others that people more or less may disagree with. Like that community who believe in polygamy and whose leader chooses the mates for the women.. I don't know the name of it, but I know they were in the news when the children were taken away, and some women escaped from it. Or they one up in our neck of NH who is trying to set up a community that believes that they don't have to follow any of the governmental laws. These are just groups that all you can do by way of being reverent is to let them be. You go your way, and I'll go mine.