moosetracker

On the other matter of YPT. That is on-line. There should be no problem for everyone to have the ability to get trained before recharted date. Now WILL everyone do it, that is the question.. Make sure you get your key people to take YPT.. The absentee COR is my biggest conceren with this. Your main unit leaders should be able to take 20-30 minutes off sometime in the next 6 months to log in & get trained, compared to everything else they do for the unit, this should be a small inconvience. Get the adult leaders you need to register the unit COR, CC, SM or CM, 3 committee members. After that who do not get YPT will individually not be registered. But, that will not keep your unit from getting reregistered. Your unit will just register with a smaller number of Adult leaders.. Unless your unit is at bare minimum of Adult leaders in order to register, the unit can be reregistered if not ALL currently registered leaders get YPT training. YPT is not a hard training to take now. The only problem you should have are those people who refuse on some misguided principle.. (Why do you want a unit that is not 100% about the saftey of the youth it is responsible for?) And the computer challenged. For those people see if anyone in the unit has a laptop which can connect to the internet remotely, and walk them through the process of registering on-line.. Once they register, log in once or twice, they should have no problem doing so at home.. For those with no internet at home, let them take YPT on the laptop under their registration info. No one in unit with laptop with remote access? Meet at a library.. If the remote laptop will not have a printer. in Internet explorer.. top right corner right after the printer icon is a dropdown called "Page".. Bring up the complete certificate. then under "Page" choose "Send page by email".. Email the page to someone who has a printer and will print the certificate for you. I know our district will be offering some course style YPT, but National prefers the on-line if possible. There are ways your unit can work with the computer challanged. There is nothing you can do about the person who refuses and just gives lame excuses.. If they can't find 20 minutes for YPT, how much time did the give to the unit at all?

SMEagle819 - You were kindof appropriate for this post if you alter YPT to cub scout specific. Hopefully they will get the specifics training for the new cub scout program set up before the end of the year. Those prototype districts that this year need their top leaders fully trained for this December's rechartered date might have problems.. "Sorry.. Can't register you, you don't have the new specifics training.".. "But, they haven't released it yet! I couldn't take it!" "Not my problem. You can't register without it..... NEXT !!!"..

Yeah but JHankins won't come our way. I told her we have an opening in our district (unless that's what Eagle2000 is applying for..) We're not having layoffs.. (Sure FOS & camping registration is down, with the recession, but we aren't doing that bad with keeping the scouts enrolled) But, Nooooo... we are too far north, and she can't keep her tan if she sits in a snowbank. I guess long hours and all the other demands of a DE position doesn't freighten JH, but a little snow does..

For Committee Youth-Protection, This-is-Scouting, and Troop Committee Challenge are what are Required Courses. The district has a trained & untrained list for the position you are in. You will fall onto the "untrained" list if you miss any 3.. Fast Start is suppose to be required, but it is not something checked on by the "untrained" list. If you are a Committee member you can wear the trained patch with this. I have not seen it yet, but someone on this forum wrote that if you took Committee Challenge as a course (even when that was the only thing offered). And then you did something to change your unit or position, you will come up "untrained" for this because you did not take the web version. I guess I will find out as we start informing people of what they are untrained in, and find out from them that they think they took the course. They shouldn't they didn't even change the name, and it is still a boardgame type thingy. Did they change the course number?

Not very good with deadlines, huh? Let's hope they get their act together before they expect leaders to implement them.

My son went to a few different camps in his time. None were like what you described, but one was a little less strict then the others. But all had prerequisites of things that could not be done at camp (ie. something that required library or internet research, or visiting a specific place.) and plenty of partials were given out. Do you feel that this is the only camp your scouts can attend?.. Even if boy lead, you could offer a suggestion of going to different camps to the boys, different scenery, different merit badges are offered, different free time activities.. See if you can get some enthusiasm for it. I would find it hard that all neighboring camps are as bad. Like others stated I would write a letter (hopefully with CO backing.) But, loss of revenue with your troop attending other camps, will probably get more attention.

My son recruited his friend (or did I???).. All I know is his friend would call to see if my son could come over to play, and I would say.. "Sorry, He's on a canoe trip with Boy Scouts." , "Sorry he's camping with Boy Scouts.." it went on 3 or 4 times.. Then one time there was complete silence on the other end. I kindof guessed the problem, so said, why don't you come visit the troop to see if you would like to join. He was at the next troop meeting, both boys stayed in made Eagle, and both are 20 and 19 and still in. In fact the friend has just been asked to be a SM when he turns 21. But, anyway, this next story was before my time with this troop (never was in this adjacent Pack), so I have no clue what this Pack did for recruitment. But, there was this one year they held some Cub scout recruitment night that was not even at the school, it was at some function hall.. Our old SM while in CS came up with some idea and carried it out. It worked well.. TOOO.. well... They ended up with too many recruited scouts.. I believe overflow went to other Packs.. And they were so over run with cub scouts they needed to rent a function hall to have their Blue & Gold dinners. It worked so well they never did it again, even though now I think they are in serious need. But, maybe part was due to the personalities doing the presentation.. But, something got them there to begin with rather then your no shows. Don't know what. All I know was the murming comments of "Never again"..

I am so sorry for your loss.. That is a horrible tragidy and should not befall anyone. And my prayers go out to you and your family. You say your mothers shirt with her scout pins are with the police. Was this a cub scout event they were on went they got lost? As Ownthenight stated, this is not a thing for the uniform police. As recently stated a Venturing crew defines itself, and it's uniforms. I am sure that your crew knowing the story, is in full support of you. Others shouldn't be questioning your uniform, as it is what the crew defines as proper. Also post as often and a much as you like, this is not a forum for leaders, this is a forum for scouters, or those interested in scouting.. The door is open to all who wander in, and don't mind that our discussions are based on a specific topic.

Wonderful ceremony.. You sound like my husband though (although you state there were a few close to tears.) My husband is always asked to speak and declines due to most Eagle courts bring him to tears. He tried to do the presentation of some of the letters at the last one, thinking he wasn't as personally close to this eagle as alot of the others before him, but no, he was standing up there stopping & starting due to the emotion & the tears.. He will not ever try again..

That makes no sense as it went on line with no name change, and is still the board game, and as far as I know, you can still hold the normal course. Did you find that out by a volunteers complaint? Unless a volunteer was duel registered in two troops, their pathetic software wouldnt show us that they had Committee challenge, because they wouldnt be on the trained report, just the untrained on as needing Web TCC.. Also 3/4th of those courses will never show on our reports, because they deem you only need to know about the required courses. I am surprise they let us see those who took NLE on the trained report. I found out some of my volunteers are on the trained list, but showing no courses or an incomplete list. Gee.. they took an older course that qualified them as trained. But, you don't need to see that Do you??? So we will just remove those for you..

Bear Dad - Never took Cub scout training, but I did feel that way when I took IOLS in Boy Scouts.. All Trainers must learn EDGE... Very nice.. Explain: The trainer explains how something is done. Demonstrate: The trainer demonstrates while explaining again. Guide: The learner tries the skill while the trainer guides him through it. Enable: The learner works on his own under the eye of the trainer. Now how are we suppose to follow the syllabus and the Edge program, and still get everything in the syllabus done in a timely manner..? (have not taken EDGE yet (maybe Aug if not cancelled again), or seen trainers use it, so some of you trainers can explain that.)

Yeah.. I'm a programmer, so typing is my buisness.. And I am opinionated and stubborn to boot.. Very lethal combination.

Eagle92 - just one more thing to make the "mandated" training a headache for us that have to sort things out.. UCEagle72 - I agree with you on if your training is getting very outdated, you definatly should keep up with the times. I hope the majority of long-timers think the way you do.. If you are still in scouts after 20 years, I would hope you training is more up to date then that offered 20 years back.. But, if someone takes IOLS in October and is suppose to be trained for both CubScouts & Boys Scouts and crosses over to the troop in March (or even the following March).. I don't think it would now be fair to tell them they are "untrained" because you took an old course. Especially if the major change to the program is to combine Cub Scouts with Boy Scouts, and they took the Boy Scout training and don't need the Cub scout section anymore.

So what can people tell me about the training Grandfather clause? When I looked over my district training reports (which are oh so, not good).. And for multi unit registered Leaders I was seeing they were trained in one unit with New Leaders Essentails and Untrained in another Unit and needed This is scouting.. Our Registrar at council sent me this in an email.. ... New Leader Essentials and This is Scouting are the same, yet different at the same time. New Leader Essentials was phased out with This is Scouting taking its place last year. One problem that I think you are running into, and I have also run into, is who is grandfathered by New Leader Essentials for their various positions and who is not. ... So with the change coming to IOLS & OWLS.. What will that mean to Weblo leaders looking to take it and be good for when they do reach Boy Scouts.. Wait?.. Sign up to be duel-enrolled now, if you know what troop your son is going too?

Eagle92 - good thing I saw your thread this morning. I was about ready to write my Council training chair. I thought we were going renegade in trainings when I heard that our district had combined the OWLS -IOLS (they were even putting their own combo names to it.) What I found out, was "council sanctioned" they are really just doing the IOLS for Webloes & Boy Scouts and saying they are good to go with that... If your DE says you are good with that also, there must be some truth to it.. But, here is the kicker... (And I plan to start a new thread on it, so if you want to comment look for that.) I found out there is a Grandfather clause to these trainings that is not all incumbant.. ie. if the course changes (as Outdoor leader training is about to.) you may not be "Trained" in the unit you are in, but not whane you switch units (ie cubscouts to boyscouts.) I found this out when I looked over my district training reports (which are oh so, not good).. And for multi unit registered Leaders I was seeing they were trained in one unit with New Leaders Essentails and Untrained in another Unit and needed This is scouting.. Our Registrar at council sent me this in an email.. ... New Leader Essentials and This is Scouting are the same, yet different at the same time. New Leader Essentials was phased out with This is Scouting taking its place last year. One problem that I think you are running into, and I have also run into, is who is grandfathered by New Leader Essentials for their various positions and who is not. ...

Ok so I was right Baloo was a mixture. I will definately visit another district to learn more. I knew what Owls was, that's what our district teaches, but when I saw WeLots I was unsure if we were up on the most current training. then I couldn't decipher which was newer or older as it seemed both were being taught in different Counsils.. So I was right they both stand for the same current course.

Ok, while we are sortof on this subject. Can someone tell me.. A) exactly what is BALOO.. Our district doesn't do it, but other districts do. I would like to start it up in our distict (considering it is required for tour permits.) I hear it is the paperwork for organizing outdoor events for committee, but I was invited to attend one, and the person talked like they did the outdoor cooking & it sounded like she had fun at BALOO, so it wasn't stuffy paperwork. B) What is the difference between OWLS & WeLots? I know title wise, it is "Outdoor Weblos Leader Skills" and "Weblo Leader outdoor skills" but the course list has the training as C33 Outdoor Ldr Skills for Webelos Ldrs which is neither OWLS or WeLots (but) OLSWL.. So is both abbrev. stating the same course??

Venture Crew , Venturing Crew.. symantics.. My idea is correct though. My titling may just need work.. (So I will try to just use Crew, so I don't get my symantics chewed up.) I am not argueing what the Crew was designed for. What you say is correct about the idea behind the formation of it. But, just that since they are free to do anything they choose, forming with a troop doesn't null & void them from being a Crew. IF.. IF.. they register and have a charter stating they are a crew.. Around here, they don't serve two masters either. Because the Crew Advisor 95% of the time is the Scoutmaster. The other 5% of the time the SM & Advisor work in unison. Much less of a two master system, then a boy registered in a seprate Troop & Crew at the same time, meeting on different nights for both.. Crew works out any times they split with the troop for their own High Adventure outings, their may be some conflicts with the troop events, but not many. And the younger boys love having them around. They may agree to split to a seprate meeting on different days and join together on others. I do not argue what should be. I even would like to see our independent Crews get stronger and last for longer then the typical 5 years and have more the 5 members, and be successful. So I am not quibbling that all Crews should run with troops.. I am not stating that a Crew can only run with a troop to be successful.. All I am stating is that here, ours do not seem to be doing so. And that a "Registered" Crew attached to a troop is a Crew and not a Patrol. They are so, simply because they register as such. Co-ed, no uniform, staying in past the age of 18, shooting sports, different awards, different positions (some form a crew, just because their troops are so big and Ventureing affords them more positions that are acceptable for Life rank).. Who knows why the troop forms the Crew, rather then just have a patrol.. The troops with the crews are usually our strongest largest troops with the most enthusiatic ScoutMasters.. I am unsure if the Crew made them that way, or if the Troop formed the crew because they were that way to begin with. But then it is strange that our Councils are so different that your successful crews are our failing crews and vica-versa for us. I would love to see what you do different, what type of training or guidence or whatever your council does for it's crews that ours does not. I would not like our Crews w/ Troops fail.. But, I would love to see Independent Crews in our area succeed..

I guess for me it still is crystal clear. If you register as a Venturing Crew, and you have advisors, and you have a charter stating you are a Venturing Crew.. Then on the district roster you are a Venturing Crew.. If you do not register as a seprate unit but have are an older boy patrol and called a Venture patrol. You are a patrol. The whole definition of a Crew is basically they have no definition. Except they are for young people under 21 years of age, who present a good image to the community. If the Crew is meeting and working with the troop, that does not null & void their ability to be called a Crew.. Also our Venture Crews have many options open but are not forced to do a certain thing to be considered a Crew. They can be all boy, all girl or co-ed. They can wear a green uniform or not. They can work for Venture awards, Eagle (if 1st class in BS troop), or not do any of the awards, they can be high adventure or not. They can hold positions or not. They can be part of a troop or not.. One crew does ballroom dancing, no high adventure, no positions, no working for awards.. This is still called a Crew because they are registered and have a charter stating they are a Crew.

bacchus - Yes there was vicious mud slinging from both sides of the camp before the Venture Crew died. But as people stated, troops can feel threatened. The troop started out having no problem with the Ventures forming when stated it was planned to be all female. They were definatly seprate from there program. They found out that the Ventures decided to become co-ed. When the Advisor (who was troop outdoor coordinator) went to the troop meetings, pulled each boy who was of age aside personally and one by one, during the troop meeting and told them why they should dump the troop and join Ventures. You never saw a troop see a Venture program as a threat to their program faster then when that happened. Then she decided it was too much of an effort to plan seprate outings and she didn't have two-deep leadership either, so she planned the troop outings and had her Ventures tag along. She lost her outdoor position real quick and was almost booted from the troop entirely. I will have to say the troop did improve their program to fend off her attempts also. The troop formed a Venture Patrol (the unregistered Ventures).. And gave the older boys some more activities so that they would stay. (Pissed her off, that they formed an internal Ventures to combat her external Ventures.) Childish saying but approiate to say "She started it.", the troop just wasn't about to go down without a fight. I always believed that if she had formed the Venture crew and sat down with the troop to create some bylaws (maybe different but like what Eagle92 mentioned, there would have been no issue..) Well maybe with her there would have.. Lets say if someone else had wanted a Venture crew and started it up working with the troop to make sure the two units were not going to compete, it would have had a different ending. Some of you stated that you think Venture crews "Should" be totally seprate from the troops. This is fine, and probably in your neck of the woods that may be true. I even admire that you are successful with that.. Around here, the seperate Crew usually have a life span of about 3-5 years, struggling all the way. It would be nice to find some training program that might help this poor performance, but right now, the Adult Leaders of the seperate crews don't go to Basic training. So the forced Basic training will probably thin them out more, but help some of them that do take it. In our neck of the woods, the Crews that are part of a troop are more stable & stronger, and their leaders are more apt to take the Venture Basic training. Be that right or wrong, that is how the program is surviving here.

Really!.. Well our troop only tried bugler once or twice and they were with younger scouts, and it really didn't work out. But our troop may have done a few mistakes in it's past.. I always thought if it was a position in the book, it was a position that would count for life. I was the one who pointed out to our troop they could make their own projects & positions for POR for all but Life. Then I had to remind them that made up positions/projects did not count for a Life scout a few times until it sunk in. Therefore since I did not know that there are some positions in the book that count, and some that don't we may have had a few boys advance with the wrong positions... If we did, it did not hurt them from getting their Eagle. So where in the book does it state what positions are Life qualified and what is not so that I can check this out.. I did know that Assistant Patrol leader did not count for a POR for any rank, although I sometimes thought this unfair when the Patrol leader was unreliable, and the APL was basically doing his job.

Well then Crews around here are run "in your opinion" wrong. There is one just up the street from our troop that is doing pretty good. They are registered as a "Crew" within same charter organization.. Their Scoutmaster is also the Advisor.. One of the committee members for this Crew is the one who does our Venture training for our district, and he also ran our Venturing roundtable for a while. From him I know at least 2 other troop/crews in our district this way. The one I know well hold their crew meetings with the troop, they are a patrol, they have boys that stay till they reach 21, they do the positions, not the awards. They tried to bring in girls, but could not find a female advisor in order to substain it, so that didn't work out. They wear their own Venture patrol shirt. When in a different district visiting troops we saw two troops that had a Venture "Crews" in their troop. Boys/Girls over 18 still in with the patrol, they had different venturing shirts, but they met with the troop, and took on the leadership of the younger boys. These were also the patrols I remember at the Spring/Fall camporees. I recognized the young people. Differences for us of a Patrol & some of our Crews are if they register as a crew or they don't. The Crew in the troop get the extra's mentioned can stay until they reach 21, can take on different positions, can work for the awards, may become co-ed. Otherwise they are just like a Venture patrol.. Then we have the Venture crews who may have the same charter Org or not. But, run seprate from the troop, different advisors different Committee, different meeting nights. Maybe YOUR district disallows a Crew to register if they are tied too closly with a troop. Our Council is just happy to get a Crew any way they can get a crew. In which case you are argueing with me on what can and cannot be happening in my council based on what is happening in your council.. Just know all councils are not running their Venture programs the same way as yours.

Even if they take it from their positions, all that means is it wont count for a position of responsibilty at "Life" rank. Unless this is changed too, the SM always had the right to create their own POR or a project for POR.. Only when the boy made Life rank, did he need one that was from BSA list.

No I was describing both.. Since he wants to convince a SM to accept it, can you say he is not trying to form it within the troop? The top suggestions are for a Crew or Patrol that is part of a troop.. The bottom suggestions are for a Crew separate from the troop. I may not know about what you call Venture patrols (as they dont need their adult leaders to get Venture training).. But I do know about Venture Crews that are run in a troop, the boys may form a Venture patrols except they register separate as a crew of the same charter org as the troop.. When they do, they need to register some committee members & crew advisors (which sometimes are the same as the SM & the troop committee members).. I also know because they do this they could go for venture awards (but they normally dont) and they could work different positions with the committee members being their adult mentors (some do, some dont). The one we had was separate, and then when they started to fail they wanted to become a Crew as described above. But, the troop had had their fill of them, so they went under. As far as I have seen, age can vary in both.. from 13 to 21.. I have seen some very mature patrols running from event to event at a Spring or Fall camporee. They are usually hysterical, because they act like big kids, but still can carry it off with more polish..

We had a Venture crew started badly. The majority of the troop would have been fine, had they been a seprate entity. But, they just up and started, wanted to meet on different nights & be co-ed, but demanded the Troop leadership be involved & that they be the ones to take the older boys "off-our-hands".. It is very important that you either start up with troop(s) in the area, not seeing it as a hassel or a threat. The troop did finally kill the Venture program, by just doing nothing with it, for it.. And by having the parents from the troop, not back their sons if they wanted to jump.. "Go, but find a ride 'cause I wont take you, and no I will not be a leader".. I did not want to see the Venture Crew die out, but, I also had to side with the troop that their tactics of forceing and demanding, and trying to steal scouts was totally wrong on their side. If you are trying to just create a Venture crew of older scouts that is still part of the troop.. a) the older boys should want the change. And they should discuss why they think this will keep them more interested. b) the Adult leadership in the troop should be solid enough that you are not just putting more work on the SM. You should have adult leaders who are willing to take this on. c) Try to work with SM and make sure you can address all his concerns. d) Could the mentoring positions of the Venture get some of the crew to work with the adult leaders in positions like treasurer, outdoor leader, Advancement? The adults get help in their positions and get to be mentors, the boys get to learn the positions. The Troop gets more help in organizing the troop, rather then seeing it as more of a drain on the adult leadership they currently have. If you want to add girls, to the crew that is part of the troop. The co-ed aspect of the program may be enough of a worry, that you may need to seperate. But if you have Female leaders willing to step up to be advisors, you can try to work out the concerns of the SM.. If you are trying to be seperate. Then like others said you can just start a new group. But, be careful not to demand participation from the troop leaders, and any boys from the troop you get you should try hard to keep then co-registered and co-active in both units.. Maybe offer help on an eagle project or two.. The SM/troop will slowly warm to you if you can prove yourself a good neighbor. They may slowly come around, but at least they wont put up roadblocks.. I can tell you our Troop leaders see that rule that lets Ventures take the older scouts and complete their Eagle scout award after first class as a threat. Add to that the the women starting it came in and promoted it to the boys as "no more working with young kids, girls, No uniforms, only twice a month, and we will get you to Eagle, you don't need the Troop at all." Troops depend on their older boys to be role models for the younger boys. I think our troop is hoping to start the Ventures again, but they are waiting for everyone that was in the troop from the first attempt to move on. I am passing on suggestion I heard.. to these statements, some Venture people replied "No, we don't have to, why should we bend backward for the troop." One Venture person commented well to these statements. And address the Venture people who did not like these suggestions. "We are the new, struggling minority in the BSA program.. If we don't make friends, we can easily be crushed. It makes good sense to tread softly.." Currently our district has less then 10 Venture program. Some troop ones are doing ok, but are really not true Venture progams but an older Boy scouting group.. Those who are on their own seem to be struggling. My feeling is until the Venture program can prove they are a help and not a threat, until they can win over the old fashioned leadership in the troops.. They will continue to be small and struggling.