moosetracker

pie.. ! Is that like in apple pie? Like in FOOD!! Pass me a piece. Or is that mathmatical Pie? I could be wrong. Lets see what others say, I am fairly new only here since (I think) April. I have not seen many discussions on religion. Even this thread, seemed to be a small subset group.

dunno SSScout.. You can get a hot thread or two on the subject. But like I said, most troops tend to soften down that part of the program in a quiet "respect for personal preference". Since most people keep religious views as quiet and personal topics, not sure as a forum it would get many hits. Many people may even shy away from it, for fear it is a platform for the holy rollers.

They keep tinkering with the ticket set up don't they? When my husband went through he could do anything, including a ticket item to help with district training though not working at district level. When I went through I had the diversity, and had to work at the level I was currently at. When my son went through they had added the Umbrella that everything had to arrange their tickets under a common word that defined them all. New now is the ticket as a personal goal. I also don't remember anything about a 360 review (not as a ticket of course, but as taught as part of the course) But, my memory on that could be hazy.

rkfrance - if you took TDC "Trainer Development Conference" Before it moved to trainers EDGE, you are fine because you are "grandfathered" under the old course. New Pack trainers no longer have TDC as an option to take, so they can't be required to take it. But regardless it sounds like it EDGE isn't required, even though it is the replacement course for TDC.

Thanks JHankins, I will have to see if this EDGE required for district trainers is a rule of our council, or if my Trainers have it wrong. Most all of them are trained in my district but one, and he is hesitating committing himself to being a trainer in the Fall courses for fear that the EDGE program will not swing around again before that time. Our EDGE training in the Fall was too big for them to run properly due to how many people tried to take it at once. We also have a web page at our council about EDGE program, that the list of who should take it is as such.. WHO: Cub Scout Leaders, Pack Trainer (required), Boy Scout leaders, Committee members, Commissioners as well as District and Council Training team and Wood Badge Staff members Hmm. They didn't even put NYLT staff, and I don't know why (required) is next to Pack trainer, and they didn't even do that for Wood Badge staff. I think at least at my council confusion runs amuck!

SSScout - that is very appropriate. I had to read it twice, but as it sank in, I really liked it.

Well, then Scoutfish.. I guess we do agree to agree.. Thanks for some ideas of what to say. We have been living in the country, for 20 years we were not bothered. Just this year they started calling. First my son, who doesn't know how to politely turn them away so he has been called on about 4 times, now me.. 5 times in one year, time to polish up on our "Thanks, but no Thanks" responses. (Hmm.. I don't have anything to sell back to them except some 2nd hand stuff that should be put on ebay.) GernBlansten - Tsk.. tsk.. (shaking head, and secretly smirking)...

GernBlansten - we crossed post.. All I can say to you is tsk. tsk. I got literature now, they are to return, and all I am thinking is how to kindly say no thank-you politely so that they don't waste their time and mine. So I am suppose to put them to work pulling my weeds and mowing my lawn? What a concept!

The committee I would guess would back the scoutmaster. And probably inform the rest of the ASM's and Adults who attended that that is what they would expect from them. I would be suprised if a committee discussion was anything more then backing the SM. If they don't this type of disagreement would become frequent. It is still good to have their backing when it disolved into the SM and ASM all disagreeing with each other.

Well I don't think anyone has ever called me anti-religious.. Maybe because I have an utmost respect for anyones religion. If your beliefs make you content with the world around you, give you meaning and a purpose, gives you inner peace, and your religion does not put down or hurt any group of people that is not like you. I am very happy for you and would never try to sway you to my beliefs. My beliefs I know would make other people miserable, so why would I want everyone to have my beliefs and not be content with their views of the world? I can't say I am right or wrong, but they make me content.. As OGE stated .. I yam what I yam and thats all that I yam.. People at the door try to convert you, therefore I am not content discussing things with them, they will try to twist your words or beliefs, not just openly discuss. I don't know what makes me uncomfortable about people who have to bring God into everything. Like the day I got my car stuck in a snow bank, a man stopped and was very helpful I was appreciative, but I didn't understand what digging a car out of a snow bank had to do with "God loving me". Does God have anything to do with my producing a great software system for my company? No I don't think God really would care about that. I just don't know how to appropriatly respond to them, and that makes me uncomfortable. Part of the scouting interpretation to Reverent is respect for others religious beliefs. I think I do that well enough. I think I am reverent to my own beliefs and I have them though they may be just the core beliefs that have followed man from the beginning of time and not much else. - Away from me now... --- Someone here said that thier scouts were not grilled at a EBOR on religious beliefs. I would not say they are grilled, but they are always asked, What they interpret "Reverent" to mean, and how it applies to them. Therefore the few kids who with the question have answered that they don't have any belief. Otherwise whatever they say is fine. Because we know the question will be asked, it is good for our boys to be prepared for it. Because some boys are not comfortable with that type of discussion when unexpected. I am greatful my son was forced to sit down and think about it. He just isn't comfortable discussing private feelings with strangers, and would have choked. Packsaddle - I just think the thread was inappropriatly titled. The original post listed offense/illegal questionable choices. Homosexual being one, Atheist being another. The Homosexual was easily discussed and finished. The Atheist got us hung up.

Trainer Development Conference - has been changed to a new course titled EDGE. normally it will be offered at least once a year and with us it is at council level not district. This is because woodbadge staff need it. In my council EDGE has been offered more frequently in the last year because all district course trainers need to have taken this course in order to continue to train, since it is new, the district staff as well as Woodbadge & Pack trainers need it, it is in hot demand right now. That will level out to once a year soon again.

Man-made in objects is real in the sense of it takes up space, you can hold it.. In ideas it's real in a sense of what changes it brings to a person personally or a group of people, or society, or a nation. In religion, it has the same effect as any other type of idea it can organize a group of people. Does that belief in an idea make it real? No.. Could you possibly have the right of it, maybe. Example : Belief in heaven & hell helps organize people to live a better life.. Is heaven or hell really there with angels & devils? That is up to you to decide. Is it just symbolism or a concrete place somewhere? Whatever.. All I know is those who truely believe in a heaven & hell did not make the place come into existance. Heaven & hell is not man-made based on people believing it so. It either is or it isn't.. We know from science Earth wasn't created in 7 days, but the order of things was fairly accurate.. Symbolism mixed with some surprising accuracy. Interpretation of how this came to be written and what was meant when written, within your faith may make it real to you if you believe. But, your belief will not change history.. history that old is just lost and subject to interpretations. But, the true history has not been altered in anyway to make your belief real. You might be right, you might not be. I definately don't believe that one religion is the only religion that will go to heaven, and anyone who doesn't believe in it will go to hell. Some religions believe this. Does this belief make it real? Let's hope not for the 99% of the population that do not follow that religious belief.

Natural Catastophes I believe are part of the design of Gods will. Even those natural disastors born out of our own distruction of the earth's resources.. Too deep an issue to get into. But, I don't think a single group of people are purposely destroying the earth in order to convert us all to their opinion of something. 9/11 was the cause of people who hijacked a perfectly peaceful faith for their own cause, and added thier own interpretation of what Quran, ignored parts, over emphisised parts. In order to form an army of warriors bent on the fact that their god wanted to do battle with their enemy. Of those who follow the religion as intended, I have no issue.. Of those who hijacked the religion there is a group of manipulators and a group of manipulated. Throughout history there have been many wars, and many religious cults large and small used to manipulate people to others agenda. I knew about them but 9/11 hit me smack in the face. I started looking at all the different religions and faiths and how everyone takes the Historic facts and put their own spin on things, their interpretations, their opinions.. The Bible is someones interpretation of history or the holy word.. Each different religious book is an interpretion from someone trying to decipher what was meant.. These interpreters may have been, good well intended people, but still it is their interpretation. Each church that follows any holy book, has their beliefs based on this book, but someone interpreted this book differently. Protestant, Catholic, Episcopalians all follow the Bible but with different interpretations. Then within each faith, each minister, Preist or Bible study class then reinterprets what they think the bible is saying.. By the time you hear the word it has been re-interpreted so many times, what you are hearing is very watered down. Most religious faiths are good, they are trying to follow a faith that is allowing people to lead a good wholesome life to self and others. All good. But, my belief in organized religion has been shaken that I don't know what is real, and what is man-made. I believe in a higher being, I believe in a soul that remains after the body perishes. I believe that what you do on earth counts in the afterlife somehow. I believe because these are ingrained in my inner being, my soul, I cannot interpret the world without these beliefs.. After that, I don't know what is truely real and what is man-made religion. And I don't really want anyone trying to tell me based on their interpretation either.

I don't think the committee should be involved in deciding the fate of the boy. That is over and done with. but the troop lost a scout when a (Parent/ASM) walked out in a huff over the matter, and pulled his child out of the program also. There was other disagreement & arguement amounst leaders over the issue. SM & ASM may handle the boys, but the committee deals with the Parents & other program matters. Having protocol that the adult leaders, Parents and the boys understand clear the possibility of a similar situations.

I did want to add in but was afraid to get into the mist of the arguement, thanks GernBlansten for your input, I think it is now safe to wade into the water.. Hmmm.. The title Homosexual Scouts does not quite fit the turn of this thread. Anyway.. I know with me 911 changed how I view my faith drastically as it did a friend of mine, we both went in opposite directions. Currently my beliefs are closer to Scoutfish. I might go back to church if I can find one that is does not force man-made rules on you. It is just scary how people can turn religion into their own personal gain or platform and manipulate people.. My friend joined a church, and almost had no life outside of it after 911. I do not appreciate and or I'm uncomfortable with anyone who comes to my door touting their religion, or who constantly work their religion into day to day conversation when it is not appropriate to the conversation at hand, yet I am comfortable discussing religion in an appropriate debate or conversation. My father was a minister, and I have a deep belief in God, and hurt him deeply that I was no longer attended church. Still church attendance, or belonging to a specific religion to me does not mean a lack of faith or the inability to shape your life the way you think god would approve, or a belief that there is something after death (heaven/hell?? reincarnation, floating souls? not sure). Anyway.. My son had to come to terms with his belief for his EBOR.. He had a hard time preparing and defining his answer. He attended church young, but not when he was older and my quiet acceptance slowly evolved into him not taking the time to think about what his belief system was. When it came for the EBOR, my husband or I (not sure) put down our name as someone stating his belief. Our COR said a parent was not good enough, if you had no church you had to find someone who was a church member to sign off on this, she would be happy to do it, only if our son wrote a report stating his beliefs so she knew that he had some. (Now we probably could have gone elsewhere, but you didnt mess with our COR, and you kind of felt obligated to use her). The report was rejected by her 3 times before accepted, as she made him dig deeper and state feelingx he was uncomfortable with expressing or delving into. In the long run it was good for him, he was comfortable with any question the board asked him on the subject. But, in the troop I can see him going through and not really having to define his belief.. I dont know if a true card toting atheist can go through Scouts Believing in disbelief.. But I can see other boys going through scouts and not coming to terms with having no belief until the EBOR and having the question asked. Why? Because a lot of troops see respect to various religions as just gently tiptoe around the subject. Reverent in the scout Law is not only faith in your religion but also respecting others religion. In respect, to everyones various beliefs they just dont discuss it. With most troops the closest they come to religion may be an interfaith prayer before dinner, or an Eagle COH, nothing else. Yet other things like Kind, courteous etc.. these parts of the scout law are constantly brought up and discussed, especially when someone is not showing those traits in their behavior. So can a boy start in Boy scouts, change opinions about his religious beliefs and yet stay in scouting and not really come to terms with it and/or its implications to their scouting career until they hit the question at their EBOR? Yes. I think it is very probable.

I agree with Scoutfish that ASM #1 over-reacted. You can have different opinions, but by leaving the camp then leaving the troop because his opinion was not what everyone followed like gospel, I fear he will do lots of troop hopping and ruining events that should be fun for his son, until the son drops out, or the father takes him out of scouts.. Having it reveiwed by a committee, and you suggestion that they review, alter if needed, and bring back the by-laws is a very good idea. You can't have such serious "one time and your out" rulings especially when you had know by-laws stating that would be the outcome.

Welcome, You will probably see ALOT different, some of it because of program change, but I'm betting alot more will be because your perspective will have changed. I hope your son has a great time, and you right along with him.

HobcawChaos -- Thanks for your input.. You are the voice of one side we had not yet heard from so that is important to get the viewpoint from the other side of the fence.

Packsaddle I was typing while you & baccus had an exchange. I took your first comment of "...or they could allow options for the CO's to choose from. I don't understand why this organization is so dead-set against an 'open market' approach. Is it because they want to keep power consolidated in the hands of just a few of the 'elite'?" To be in reference to LDS.. so I was just responding that no one really has stated that LDS is dead-set against it.. baccus was right to query "who are you refering to?" but, I didn't see that there was something else you could have been referring to. Sorry for the confusion.

Before nailing LDS (and all it's members) to a tree... Just remember it is all supposition, some people have stated LDS will not allow it (are they LDS maybe or maybe not, even if they are LDS, are they a high supior voice of LDS??).. Others just knowing the problems LDS have with mixing gender in activities and taking a stab at what to do to make peace with them.. Really this whole thread is supposition. No one started this thread saying "National came out with a plan to go co-ed and LDS threw it in the toilet.." With those who dead set against Girls in Scouting even if it is not their unit but their next door neighbors unit. We don't know if those Nay Sayers are LDS, old fashioned traditionalist of the BSA program, or just don't like girls.. All three of them will have objections, some open minded ones will probably be fine as long as not forced on them. There's others who need everyone to walk the same path as them, because it is the one and only true path.. The one's with the narrow perspectives will just never see the light.. Will they only be LDS.. some will, but others will not.. And some LDS people I am sure will bevery open minded about others taking different paths and points of view then them. Those LDS members though may or may not be the majority.

For our normal meetings it is suppose to be the uniform shirt neckercheif the pants are nice jeans or other pants.. Things degrade to sweats and shorts, for a while then standards are brought up for a while, then degrade. this is our class "A". Camporees are your Class "A".. Depending on Scoutmaster at the time we have had traveling in scout "A" but not with current SM. Class "B" T-shirt.. for work days and portions of scout camp.. Class "A" in dinning halls, and whatever you want other times for camp.

Although it doesn't convert me totally, I will have to score 1 point for the other side with Thomas54 comment "The boys are already losing to girls in colleges attendance, and in leadership positions at the high school level".. He is correct in the highschool part, girls because they mature faster, may buckle down and learn faster and may also volunteer more readily to be SPL while the boys try to get out of it. College is a choice of who wishes to attend or not. Boys in scouting have a higher percentage to go to college, and I don't think that will change if they still get the scouting experience next to a girl. But maybe we will send a few more girls to college too.. Ooops so sorry... Our program draws boys who already want to excel and do something with their lives and be leaders. So the program itself will weed out the boys who do not want those things. So I think the boys can hold a pretty equal stand with the girls. And when they get out in the work world the boys still get more opportunity to advance. It would do the girls good to learn some new tricks to compete with them when in a career.

LiBob I one might think you have a strong opinion on this subject.. My husband sounded just like you 3 or 4 years ago whenever the subject arose.. Girls would be the ruination of the Boy Scout program for sure. I mentioned this thread just to get a rise out of him and was shocked. His comment was Co-ed all the way! It will happen, theres no stopping it, and if they do it, do it right, dont do it half a**ed.. I think I am still in shock. No one will change your mind with discussion LiBob, but who knows something in your own life might. I still would love to know what changed my husbands mind, but I am not going to press a good thing. I will just except it as a gift. The one thing I know about the Boy Scout group is that they are very protective of their winning formula. It is the whole tension between the Venturing Program and the Boy Scout Program, the fear that Venturing will try to tamper with the Boy Scout program in either trying to make the BS program its feeder group which would lose the older boys who are the central ingredient as the Leaders of the Boy Lead program. Or the fear that the BS program will try to change its formula itself in trying to compete with Venturing. They want neither. They are fine with Venturing programs that stand on their own, and offer no threat. I dont see this same group lie down and playing dead for a flock of incoming girls. These are the people who will make sure these girls accept the program as it comes. For sure BSA will make changes with or without the change of the addition of girls. For sure any change they make with or without girls will be viewed as a bad move by many.. As for these two comments - A. It is about enrolling girls who have no interest in camping who enroll only because their parents want them to develop such an interest. You mean like we currently do with boys who are there only due to their parents pushing them to be there, or boys who did well inLiBob I one might think you have a strong opinion on this subject  .. My husband sounded just like you 3 or 4 years ago whenever the subject arose.. Girls would be the ruination of the Boy Scout program for sure. I mentioned this thread just to get a rise out of him and was shocked. His comment was Co-ed all the way! It will happen, theres no stopping it, and if they do it, do it right, dont do it half a**ed.. I think I am still in shock. The one thing I know about the Boy Scout group is that they are very protective of their winning formula. It is the whole tension between the Venturing Program and the Boy Scout Program, the fear that Venturing will try to tamper with the Boy Scout program in either trying to make the BS program its feeder group which would lose the older boys who are the central ingredient as the Leaders of the Boy Lead program. Or the fear that the BS program will try to change its formula itself in trying to compete with Venturing. They want neither. They are fine with Venturing programs that stand on their own, and offer no threat. I dont see this same group lie down and playing dead for a flock of incoming girls. These are the people who will make sure these girls accept the program as it comes. For sure BSA will make changes with or without the change of the addition of girls. As for these two comments But going co-ed is not (only) about allowing in daughters like yours. - A. It is about enrolling girls who have no interest in camping who enroll only because their parents want them to develop such an interest. You mean like we currently do with boys who are there only due to their parents pushing them to be there, or boys who did well in cub scouts but don't enjoy the bs program Basically we are dealing with this issue now with the boys who come in - B. It is about enrolling girls who want to learn camping and "how to catch, gut and eat a snapping turtle" and other outdoor skills BUT accepting along the way, parent-leaders who do not share their daughters views . You mean like we currently do now with the parents who are lovingly term helecopeter parents? Those new parents who come in and try to tell you how to change the whole program in order to benefit thier son.. With each crossover your troop will get a new group of boys and parents with the very issues you are describing the girls will bring in. I have no doubt they will. The girls will not come in picture perfect. Your expectation that they must be more perfect then the boys or they are not welcomed is not really fair. Like the boys, it will be the troops responsibility to whip these new recruites and their parents into shape or release them.

Liz is looking at a pre-existing Organization, not in creating a fictional organization for the sole purpose of being the CO to this Crew.. as she stated in the original post... ..I have a possible CO in mind which may be interested, but they have very few resources. The organization (in a very loose definition of the word "organization") is a local consortium or committee of sorts of representatives of all the members of our church denomination.. Liz this organization fine, but if you did want to try to make it a little bigger CO, you might be able to approach the church that the organizition is a committee for, and see if they wouldn't be the CO if your group took on the responsibility of overseeing the crew COR and any other concerns of the crew..

I agree with Basementdweller. Troops currently get boys who feed up through cub scouts. The first year they loose alot of those crossovers due to the fact that the boys who dont like camping figure out they cannot advance without going on events, especially camping events. Boy Scouts over history have not altered the program to discontinue camping for these boys. Why would they for the girls who come in and figure out they dont want to camp? The big thing with going co-ed is that the winning formula of Boy Scouts not get changed to accomidate the girls.. (Can't currently say this for the Cub Scouts, as their formula is currently being messed with).. This is a discussion of opening the doors to offer the girls who want the program as it stands to be able to join. Not altering the program to interest girls in the program.